770 KAAM in Dallas

[DoogieDown]

Just a report from the field:

Adult Standards KAAM in Dallas just switched to HD this past week. I'm listening on a receiver set to a medium bandwidth--probably 6.5 to 7 kHz.

In short, the hiss is awful. It's right out in the forefront of the audio. Couldn't miss it if you tried.

I've read a lot of doom and gloom predictions about HD Radio on the AM dial, but I really didn't expect it to sound this BAD.

I'm an imaging guy, and, as I sit here listening, I'm thinking it would be unwise to expose my ears to this much hiss over a prolonged period of time. Headphones would be completely out of the question.

My advice to the industry (and, even as I offer it, I don't for a second presume anyone cares about my opinion) is to let the FM dial sell this technology to the public. HD2 is the selling point. THAT's what will motivate listeners to buy HD Radios.

In the meantime, if you've got an AM station, keep it analog until HD Radio receivers have saturated the market. Otherwise you're just butchering your signal with no upside to the exercise.

 

[Ai4i]

Keep in mind that this is the hybrid transition mode.
If and when HD recievers will have saturated the market, both medium wave and VHF stations will only transmit digital signals. The terms AM and FM will linger on as quaint anachronisms.<P ID="signature">______________
Proud 2 B a pioneering satellite radio subs¢riber
Ai4i is always on the trailing edge of technology
______________</P>

 

[DoogieDown]

> Keep in mind that this is the hybrid transition mode.
> If and when HD recievers will have saturated the market,
> both medium wave and VHF stations will only transmit digital
> signals. The terms AM and FM will linger on as quaint
> anachronisms.

Point well taken.

But this era of dual digital and analog signal transmission could go on for years... probably 10 to 15. I wouldn't want my AM station hobbled by a technology that hurts the main product--that is, the AUDIO of the station. I mean, in the radio biz, if you don't have listenable audio, then what HAVE you got?

The TV industry has no such problem. HD signals can be broadcast without hurting the viewing experience of people with rabbit ears. FM analog techically suffers a little from its HD digital signal; but not enough to hurt listenership, I wouldn't think.

But based on what I'm hearing on KAAM, AM radio is getting HAMMERED by these digital signals.

 

[RichWood]

> Keep in mind that this is the hybrid transition mode.
> If and when HD recievers will have saturated the market,
> both medium wave and VHF stations will only transmit digital
> signals. The terms AM and FM will linger on as quaint
> anachronisms.

Even the Grand High Poobah at iBorg has admitted that analog will be with us for a very, very long time, I think you and I and our kids will be pushing up daisies long before analog goes away.

Estimates of the numnber of receivers that have to be replaced ranges from double the population to as high as 1.5 billion if you count all receivers currently in each home.

I count 12 receivers currently in use in my house. Look around yours. Even at $100 each will you be willing to replace them all? Until a station can be assured its analog audience has digital counterparts it would be out of its mind to shut analog off.

Rich




>

 

[Ai4i]

>
> I count 12 receivers currently in use in my house. Look
> around yours. Even at $100 each will you be willing to
> replace them all? Until a station can be assured its analog
> audience has digital counterparts it would be out of its
> mind to shut analog off.
>

Radios break and get replaced regularly.
How many of those dozen radios of yours have vacuum tubes?
How many use tuning capacitors?
How many are AM only?<P ID="signature">______________
Proud 2 B a pioneering satellite radio subs¢riber
Ai4i is always on the trailing edge of technology
______________</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by ai4i on 03/02/06 12:16 AM.</FONT></P>

 

[westlife]

> Radios break and get replaced regularly.

But not at current HD Radio prices. Just as a "sunset" of analog TV will only be viable if/when digital TVs reach the $99.99 price range, a sunset of analog radio will only be viable if/when digital radios reach the $9.99 price range.

And you have to factor in cars as well. I still see plenty of cars from the 1980s and early '90s on the road today, and these cars don't even have an Expanded Band-capable radio, even though the FCC required all new radios to tune the Expanded Band 12 years ago. My dad owned his previous car for 17 years. If he keeps his current 2002 car, with its analog radio, for another 17 years, that means he'll be driving it until 2019. Can HD Radio wait that long to be heard? I doubt it.
<P ID="signature">______________
It's a common mistake to not use punctuation in its proper form.
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/~csk/its.html>Be kind to your friend, the apostrophe.</a></P>

 

[RichWood]

> Radios break and get replaced regularly.
> How many of those dozen radios of yours have vacuum tubes?

Zero

> How many use tuning capacitors?

Zero

> How many are AM only?

Zero

Your point?

Rich

 

[DFWRadioJock]

> Keep in mind that this is the hybrid transition mode.
> If and when HD recievers will have saturated the market,
> both medium wave and VHF stations will only transmit digital
> signals. The terms AM and FM will linger on as quaint
> anachronisms.

No that's not true. Conversion to HD broadcasting is an "option" for stations. It's not mandatory at this time.

 

[k9ez]

> > Radios break and get replaced regularly.
>
> But not at current HD Radio prices. Just as a "sunset" of
> analog TV will only be viable if/when digital TVs reach the
> $99.99 price range, a sunset of analog radio will only be
> viable if/when digital radios reach the $9.99 price range.
>
> And you have to factor in cars as well. I still see plenty
> of cars from the 1980s and early '90s on the road today, and
> these cars don't even have an Expanded Band-capable radio,
> even though the FCC required all new radios to tune the
> Expanded Band 12 years ago. My dad owned his previous car
> for 17 years. If he keeps his current 2002 car, with its
> analog radio, for another 17 years, that means he'll be
> driving it until 2019. Can HD Radio wait that long to be
> heard? I doubt it.
>


Yes it can. Look at the FM band back in the 40's-50's-60's and see where it is today.

 

[Ai4i]

> > How many of those dozen radios of yours...???
>
> Zero
> Zero
> Zero
>
> Your point?
>
> Rich
>

My point is that THESE gazillion radios that the public has today will almost all be trashed in less than twenty years. Within five or ten years, all new cars could include HD technology.

Important point: As an advertiser, I would not care at all about listeners who are driving around in cars with more rust than paint showing.<P ID="signature">______________
Proud 2 B a pioneering satellite radio subs¢riber
Ai4i is always on the trailing edge of technology
______________</P>

 

[RichWood]

> My point is that THESE gazillion radios that the public has
> today will almost all be trashed in less than twenty years.
> Within five or ten years, all new cars could include HD
> technology.

I think that's highly unlikely since radios replaced today will be replaced with another analog radio. Since there are no iPod sized IBUZ receivers we can't start the count from today.

Let's say 10 years before domestic manufacturers have IBUZ options in cars. Coming from a car dealer family I believe car makers are going to wait until they can be sure the radio isn't going to cause a warranty return that won't make them a penny.

> Important point: As an advertiser, I would not care at all
> about listeners who are driving around in cars with more
> rust than paint showing.

Bad decision. When I lived in Dallas I had the pleasure of meeting Stanley Marcus of Nieman-Marcus fame. I saw many people in the main store dressed as if they'd just come in from a cattle drive. I asked him how he determined which of these people were likely to spend a fortune on their most expensive specialties on the private top floor.

His answer was that he couldn't tell by how they were dressed. That it was a foolish way to judge someone's stature. The same holds true with a vehicle that might be used off road. You'd be very surprised how many wealthy people don't look that way.

Rich

 

[crisa]

We own KAAM in Dallas and are pleased so far with the HD Radio performance of the station. Our listeners who have invested in the Boston Acoustics, Kenwood, Panasonic or other available receivers are reporting "excellent sound" and stereo reception throughout the D/FW metroplex. With receiver prices coming down (they are well under $300 now and falling), with help from our own promotions and partnerships with retailers, we anticipate getting HD-capable receivers into the hands of a good number of listenera in the next year.

The phenomenon you describe is decoding of the binary digital carriers, located outside 5 kHz, being detected by your detector. The vast majority of receivers have filters to prevent detection of information beyond 4 kHz. KAAM has not transmitted any audio beyond 5 kHz for more than a year.

As such, the hiss isn't really a problem for us because it does not exist for most listeners. To date, we have not had a single complaint.

As for waiting for receiver saturation, one thing drives another. If we waited, we would be waiting forever. To create consumer demand, the signals have got to be there. It's as simple as that.


> Just a report from the field:
>
> Adult Standards KAAM in Dallas just switched to HD this past
> week. I'm listening on a receiver set to a medium
> bandwidth--probably 6.5 to 7 kHz.
>
> In short, the hiss is awful. It's right out in the
> forefront of the audio. Couldn't miss it if you tried.
>
> I've read a lot of doom and gloom predictions about HD Radio
> on the AM dial, but I really didn't expect it to sound this
> BAD.
>
> I'm an imaging guy, and, as I sit here listening, I'm
> thinking it would be unwise to expose my ears to this much
> hiss over a prolonged period of time. Headphones would be
> completely out of the question.
>
> My advice to the industry (and, even as I offer it, I don't
> for a second presume anyone cares about my opinion) is to
> let the FM dial sell this technology to the public. HD2 is
> the selling point. THAT's what will motivate listeners to
> buy HD Radios.
>
> In the meantime, if you've got an AM station, keep it analog
> until HD Radio receivers have saturated the market.
> Otherwise you're just butchering your signal with no upside
> to the exercise.
>

 

[DFWRadioJock]

> We own KAAM in Dallas and are pleased so far with the HD
> Radio performance of the station. Our listeners who have
> invested in the Boston Acoustics, Kenwood, Panasonic or
> other available receivers are reporting "excellent sound"
> and stereo reception throughout the D/FW metroplex. With
> receiver prices coming down (they are well under $300 now
> and falling), with help from our own promotions and
> partnerships with retailers, we anticipate getting
> HD-capable receivers into the hands of a good number of
> listenera in the next year.
>
> The phenomenon you describe is decoding of the binary
> digital carriers, located outside 5 kHz, being detected by
> your detector. The vast majority of receivers have filters
> to prevent detection of information beyond 4 kHz. KAAM has
> not transmitted any audio beyond 5 kHz for more than a year.

Well said. I would also add that with Ibiquity's plans to increase the cost of equipment and rights to use the technology within the next few years, stations wishing to convert to HD should be considering implementing the conversion sooner, rather than later. I personally know of a low-budget station that was going to wait until HD took off, before investing in the technology to broadcast in HD. Once Ibiquity's pricing increaases became known, the station's plans had to be changed. Better for stations to invest for converting to HD now before it becomes ridiculously expensive.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by randrewsIII on 03/02/06 06:07 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[DoogieDown]

> The phenomenon you describe is decoding of the binary
> digital carriers, located outside 5 kHz, being detected by
> your detector. The vast majority of receivers have filters
> to prevent detection of information beyond 4 kHz. KAAM has
> not transmitted any audio beyond 5 kHz for more than a year.

Thanks for the response!

I think we're talking about apples and oranges, though.

You seem to be talking about an HD receiver. However, I am listening on an analog receiver. THAT is where the hiss is unavoidable. Most analog receivers don't have 4 kHz cutoffs--especially portables and home stereo systems.

Since I have no immediate plans to purchase an HD Radio, I will only be able to listen to KAAM at night--when the HD signal is off. The hiss is just too distracting and, frankly, unpleasant.

I'm sympathetic to your situation. Being an AM music station, you've been hoping that HD would be lightning in a bottle. But HD just isn't ideal for the AM dial. What you need is an audio advancement that doesn't ruin the listening experience available on current radios. HD for FM offers that, but not HD for AM.

 

[rbrucecarter]

> Our listeners who have
> invested in the Boston Acoustics, Kenwood, Panasonic or
> other available receivers are reporting "excellent sound"

All dozen of them. And from the samples of AM IBOC downloadable from Ibiquity's own web site - it is little better than streaming audio over a broadband connection. Their audio samples have very obvious and annoying phase shifts. Until or unless that issue is resolved, I don't see paying over $200 for an IBOC radio!

> The phenomenon you describe is decoding of the binary
> digital carriers, located outside 5 kHz, being detected by
> your detector. The vast majority of receivers have filters
> to prevent detection of information beyond 4 kHz.

Sir, if you have a brick wall filter that prevents frequencies above 4 kHz from being heard - I can sell it for you! The last time I checked my filter design textbooks - there are no brick wall filters. They have roll-offs expressed in dB per octave or dB per decade. Given the slow roll-off of the average of three IF filters inside a modest AM radio, and the amplitude of the IBOC sidebands, there is considerable noise coming through my radios (which are well maintained and aligned). On the cheaper radios in my house, which have only one IF ceramic filter for their IF stage - the noise is lound enough to make the audio unlistenable. Certainly on broadband radios like the TM-152, GE Superadio 3, Hammarlund SP-600 JX in 13 kHz mode - the noise makes the audio unlistenable. Fortunately the GE and the Hammarlund have narrow bandwidth audio settings, but not the TM-152 (which your station obsoleted, by the way, when you abandoned AM stereo in favor of this other system).

> KAAM has
> not transmitted any audio beyond 5 kHz for more than a year.

That much has been very obvious. I remember when I could receive your signal with broadband response, in stereo, at a rest area on highway 114 near Crosbyton, about 290 miles from Dallas (although there was some mixing with KKOB). I seriously doubt the new IBOC system will give stereo reception over such a distance. Although if it does the mixing with KKOB would be resolved!

> As such, the hiss isn't really a problem for us because it
> does not exist for most listeners.

I forget - to you the "standard" receiver is the pile of pathetic junk Bose Wave radio, which has an audio bandwidth of 1.7 kHz on AM. I admit - that WOULD get rid of a lot of hiss - even loud IBOC hiss.

If you are lucky enough to tune an analog tuned receiver "dead on" frequency, the IBOC hiss should theoretically be eliminated because it is phase modulated from 5 to 10 kHz, not amplitude modulated. That is assuming the transmit antenna has perfectly flat phase over the entire range, and the IF in the receiver is perfectly linear. Unfortunately, if you do manage to tune "dead-on", there is a peculiar "warbling" sound that averages a few Hz to a few hundred Hz. I've heard it on your station, KMKI, KRLD, KOA (when in Denver) - in fact every IBOC AM I have listened to, on multiple AM receivers. I have no idea what it is, but it definitely forces me to tune slightly off-center to eliminate it. Which increases IBOC sideband hiss and noise dramatically!

> To date, we have not had
> a single complaint.

Well, that statement has been officially nullified here and other places in the thread. And remember that the vast majority of people, when they get bad reception, are simply going to tune out and find another station. Not take the trouble to complain to the station. Otherwise your lines would be jammed by people complaining about power lines, computers, TV sets in proximity, light dimmers - the list goes on and on. But nobody complains, they just give up and find another station or something else to do or listen to.

I realize that this is a desperate attempt on the part of AM stations to sound as good as FM (that streaming audio phase shifty stuff doesn't). And therefore to resurrect music on the AM band, when to most people under 50 it doesn't exist. But this is "fixing" a problem that doesn't exist. It is all about programming and content - not necessarily quality. You have unique content that people want. They will listen even though you have destroyed the quality - to a point. But I don't see very many people these days buying premium equipment to squeeze every last ounce of sound out of radios. The days of classic FM receivers are decades past. Now days people buy junk at Walmart or Best Buy that might have $30 worth of circuitry in it at best - but has flashy trendy front panels and blinking lights. The FM dipole antenna - if its not thrown out with the box - is crumpled on the floor. Or they pay $300 for $30 of electronics and the Bose / Tivoli / Boston Acoustics nameplate and prestige. Even if it sounds no better than a $50 GE Superadio 3. Try to sell IBOC on sound quality, its going to splat just like AM stereo. The only hope you have is that the FCC forces the issue like they did with HDTV. Otherwise, in ten or twenty years, IBOC will be the same place as AM stereo - there will be a few hundred fanatics left scattered around the country, and a dwindling list of stations that can broadcast it.

Hey - everybody knows this stuff won't work at night. At least give us back broadband and AM stereo at night!

 

[DoogieDown]

> To date, we have not had
> a single complaint.

Well, it's only been a week. And, as much as I love KAAM's Adult Standards music (and hate to say this), your listenership is both too small and too old to be a good baromoter of consumer reaction to HD hiss on the AM dial.

Now if 820 WBAP, the highest billing station in DFW, makes the switch to HD, THEN we'll see if there are complaints. But right now, WBAP is playing it extremely safe (and smart) and keeping its bandwidth wide and its C-Quam on.

 

[westlife]

> Yes it can. Look at the FM band back in the 40's-50's-60's
> and see where it is today.

Apples and oranges. FM was an entirely new band, while IBOC is just an add-on to existing analog radio. And what ultimately led to FM's success was not its technical merits, but rather its new and innovative programming, especially album rock and Disco. The same exact thing will apply to IBOC. FM IBOC may become reasonably successful due to the HD2 and HD3 channels, but AM IBOC is a dead duck because it can't offer any new programming, and when you combine that with its severe technical flaws, it will go nowhere fast.

<P ID="signature">______________
It's a common mistake to not use punctuation in its proper form.
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/~csk/its.html>Be kind to your friend, the apostrophe.</a></P>

 

[Chuck]

> Bad decision. When I lived in Dallas I had the pleasure of
> meeting Stanley Marcus of Nieman-Marcus fame. I saw many
> people in the main store dressed as if they'd just come in
> from a cattle drive. I asked him how he determined which of
> these people were likely to spend a fortune on their most
> expensive specialties on the private top floor.
>
> His answer was that he couldn't tell by how they were
> dressed. That it was a foolish way to judge someone's
> stature. The same holds true with a vehicle that might be
> used off road. You'd be very surprised how many wealthy
> people don't look that way.
>
> Rich
>
That is absolutely true at least here in Texas. I suspect it is true just about everywhere. If you doubt it, there is a great book called "The Millionaire Next Door," that you should read. In fact, tt should be mandatory reading for every MBA in marketing.

By the way, I have well over 50 working analog tube type radios, and who knows how many solid state ones. Many of the tube type radios have wide bandwidth and can sound quite good on analog AM.

I know I'm the exception, but FYI I have no intention of getting rid of any of them. Lots of people collect radios so many will be around for quite some time. Even "normal" folks keep radios until they quit working, regardless of age. I wonder how many millions (maybe billions) of radios do you think there are? Even in our disposable society, it is going to take quite a while to get rid of them.

 

[westlife]

> As such, the hiss isn't really a problem for us because it
> does not exist for most listeners. To date, we have not had
> a single complaint.

Well, now you do!

Better keep your C-Quam exciters in safe storage, Cris. Sooner or later, after AM IBOC fizzles out, you'll be looking for something to fill the hole left by the abandoned IBOC exciters in your AM stations' racks, and AM Stereo will once again be the most logical choice. And you can count on me and my fellow AM Stereo supporters to still be around when that day comes!
<P ID="signature">______________
It's a common mistake to not use punctuation in its proper form.
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/~csk/its.html>Be kind to your friend, the apostrophe.</a></P>

 

[SuperSound]

Re: 770 KAAM in Dallas-OLD CARS MEAN REAL WEALTH!

Howard Hughs, then, one of the richest men in the world, used to deliberately drive around in common Chevys (10 years old or older) not to be noticed. That was before he went bananas! (Probably from gas fumes from a leaky muffler).

> > My point is that THESE gazillion radios that the public
> has
> > today will almost all be trashed in less than twenty
> years.
> > Within five or ten years, all new cars could include HD
> > technology.
>
> I think that's highly unlikely since radios replaced today
> will be replaced with another analog radio. Since there are
> no iPod sized IBUZ receivers we can't start the count from
> today.
>
> Let's say 10 years before domestic manufacturers have IBUZ
> options in cars. Coming from a car dealer family I believe
> car makers are going to wait until they can be sure the
> radio isn't going to cause a warranty return that won't make
> them a penny.
>
> > Important point: As an advertiser, I would not care at all
>
> > about listeners who are driving around in cars with more
> > rust than paint showing.
>
> Bad decision. When I lived in Dallas I had the pleasure of
> meeting Stanley Marcus of Nieman-Marcus fame. I saw many
> people in the main store dressed as if they'd just come in
> from a cattle drive. I asked him how he determined which of
> these people were likely to spend a fortune on their most
> expensive specialties on the private top floor.
>
> His answer was that he couldn't tell by how they were
> dressed. That it was a foolish way to judge someone's
> stature. The same holds true with a vehicle that might be
> used off road. You'd be very surprised how many wealthy
> people don't look that way.
>
> Rich
>