KRKO/KKXA To Test All Digital AM Broadcasting

boombox4 said:

I've had a good experience with OTA DTV. With analog TV, I was lucky if I got Channel 7 clearly. The other three Seattle stations were a toss up, usually unviewable. 13 & 11? Forget it.


One big problem with AM going all digital is who'll buy the radios? The industry would have to to a pretty good sell job (or Congress would have to write legislation mandating the AM band to be included in automobile radios) for all digital AM to succeed.

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I see what you mean about the TV signal. Yes, I am in a tough area for reception, but the analog stations always worked. If you tuned in on a bad day and the signal was rough, you could just decide to not watch that channel (or deal with the reception). DTV produces nothing, so the point is completely moot. I am doing a slow clap for anyone who lives close enough to Queen Ann/Capitol to pull in a flawless signal from all of the Seattle broadcasters; bravo. As for me, I liked having a little bit of something rather than nothing.

As for the digital AM, I could not agree more. I tune into KKXA when I happen to be driving my old 1970's Ford Ranger (hence my name on here). This truck has only an AM radio and it works just fine for picking up 1520. I would imagine there are a lot of people who live out in the Snohomish County countryside who do the same as me.

I think flipping AM to digital would cause the listeners of the AM band to find something else. I know I would in that case. I think i'd drive in silence before id invest in an upgrade that would likely cost more than the value of the car. On the positive side, digital AM radio is more or less an "add on" to the current system, and there would be no benefit to ending analog. So, we're speaking only in theory here.

notalent said:

Even a DXer should know that HD FM's cover roughly the same area with 1% of the power of the analog. Digital broadcasting is a huge money saver when it comes to the power bill. On a 50kw AM that is significant. TV and AM station's digital transmitters also use much less power to cover the same area.

As for AM's losing audience... Have you looked at the ratings lately? They have no audience. Just you DXers.

If you were a serious broadcast geek you would get a digital radio and DX those signals as well...

But then again, maybe you can learn Morse Code and focus on DX'ing telegraph.

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One interesting point regarding DX:

In the days of analog TV, I did have some success in receiving tropo signals. I remember being quite young, and thinking it was the coolest thing ever. I tried to do the same with digital TV, and it never worked. I know its possible, but the phenomenon is much more rare because digital signals need more information to produce a picture.

fordranger797 said:

One interesting point regarding DX:

In the days of analog TV, I did have some success in receiving tropo signals. I remember being quite young, and thinking it was the coolest thing ever. I tried to do the same with digital TV, and it never worked. I know its possible, but the phenomenon is much more rare because digital signals need more information to produce a picture.

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DX digital is hard to do with ANY co channel present (something we could tolerate in analog...still...when the local 4 signed off and went to 40 fulltime, and the nightlight operations was still present, WRC analog 4 out of Washington DC BOOMed into SE Texas most of the time for the next 30 days...almost noise free color picture!)...if there is anything at -15dbC or higher in the desired digital signal, no decoding will occur..Another problem with digital is a lot of VHF hi stations are running a lower ERP than they should be due to the stupid FCC interference levels based on 30 ft high outdoor antennas...case in point: KLFY10 in Lafayette La and WAFB9 in Baton Rouge, La were both 316KW on analog....but in DTV world, they are a mere flea power compared to what they used to be...and have SERIOUS coverage problems...yet down the road, KPLC7 was able to get 65KW on digital..and their coverage is better than they were analog (especially into Texas!)....DTV on VHF in major cities has problems due to multipath....this caused KTVT in Dallas (a CBS O&O) who had decided to go back on 11 with their digital, to move back to the pre-transition digital channel on 19 after 2 years of coverage issues...of course lower power on the VHF didnt help either...Houston Vs seem to have good coverage (though 11 KHOU had to go directional due to a new 11 popping up down the coast before the final selection process of what channel they would use..either their UHF Digital or go back to 11)..from SE Texas I have seen Dallas stations, Austin, San Antonio, NOLA, Shreveport, etc via tropo.....trying to decode multiple signals really cuts the chances that you had under analog....(KATC3.1 in Lafayette and KSLA12.1 in Shreveport are both on RF28..when both boom in, nothing gets decoded!!!)..

Yep, for some people they got color, maybe a bit ghosty, pictures from stations like KOMO, KING, and KCTS, with ZERO digital reception from those 3 stations. Hilly areas suffer the most for DTV. And I just wonder what it would do with Digital AM. You probably couldn't hear KIRO or KTTH 5 miles out if your car has loads of engine noise on AM.

-crainbebo

I think the DTV transition is a good example of what we can expect from any eventual radio transition. If you have ever tried to listen to the "HD-2" of a FM radio station, you would know how it drops out and breaks up just like digital television. Sure, the signal may sound good for a while, but you will get into tough spots where the signals is going to break apart into a million pieces and you are going to be left with nothing. It was sort of like watching something I wanted to see with my old analog tv setup. I could suffer through some ghosting and noise to receive the content, but with DTV, the content just is not there.

Again, this is probably nothing to even worry about. However, its interesting to think about what it would be like.

crainbebo said:

Yep, for some people they got color, maybe a bit ghosty, pictures from stations like KOMO, KING, and KCTS, with ZERO digital reception from those 3 stations. Hilly areas suffer the most for DTV. And I just wonder what it would do with Digital AM. You probably couldn't hear KIRO or KTTH 5 miles out if your car has loads of engine noise on AM.

-crainbebo

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The irony here is that I live in a hilly area, yet reception improved w/ DTV. Probably a knife edge effect.... Wouldn't digital AM follow groundwave just as analog does?

notalent said:

Even a DXer should know that HD FM's cover roughly the same area with 1% of the power of the analog. Digital broadcasting is a huge money saver when it comes to the power bill. On a 50kw AM that is significant. TV and AM station's digital transmitters also use much less power to cover the same area.

As for AM's losing audience... Have you looked at the ratings lately? They have no audience. Just you DXers.

If you were a serious broadcast geek you would get a digital radio and DX those signals as well...

But then again, maybe you can learn Morse Code and focus on DX'ing telegraph.

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Just try to find a digital radio, especially in a box store.

If AM goes all digital without a huge boost from the industry or government it will lose what listeners it now has. It will attract as much enthusiasm as AM stereo did, and probably less. You have millions of analog AM radios vs. a handful of expensive digital ones.

Personally, I think digital signals are the only way for AM to survive, let alone remain competitive!

boombox4 said:

And being that they're the only local classic country AM station (unless there's an FM HD I don't know about), I wonder why they would want to go all digital and lose so much of their potential audience

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Actually, KMPS HD-2 is a very good Classic Country station. It appears to be locally programmed too, something CBS takes pride in doing (MEGA kudos to them for keeping local radio, local!). They also have a stream: http://bit.ly/1vfny23

I have to laff at anything digital, whether its land mobile, tv or raydio. It cuts the receive signal down to about half or more, unless the broadcasters want to add boosters or more towers, which they don't... I do remember 'am stereo' when it came out.

Blatherwatch said:

I have to laff at anything digital, whether its land mobile, tv or raydio. It cuts the receive signal down to about half or more, unless the broadcasters want to add boosters or more towers, which they don't... I do remember 'am stereo' when it came out.

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The funny thing.. AM stereo actually worked. I think KJR was testing AM stereo back "in the day" and listeners thought it had the audio quality of an FM station. THAT is pretty cool if you ask me. Digital radio has proven that it doesn't work. Sure, KMPS may have an HD-2 classic country station that is pretty cool and well programmed, but its not worth listening to unless you have a HD radio set up in your house that will [potentially] keep the signal. HD FM 1's work because you can always fall back to the analog, which you ALWAYS will.

Everything I needed to know about digital I learned on June 12th 2009.

TalentTrade said:

Personally, I think digital signals are the only way for AM to survive, let alone remain competitive!




Actually, KMPS HD-2 is a very good Classic Country station. It appears to be locally programmed too, something CBS takes pride in doing (MEGA kudos to them for keeping local radio, local!). They also have a stream: http://bit.ly/1vfny23

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I will give them that. Most HD 2's are just some sort of canned programming. However, like I said in my previous post, receiving it is another story.

fordranger797 said:

The funny thing.. AM stereo actually worked. I think KJR was testing AM stereo back "in the day" and listeners thought it had the audio quality of an FM station. THAT is pretty cool if you ask me. Digital radio has proven that it doesn't work. Sure, KMPS may have an HD-2 classic country station that is pretty cool and well programmed, but its not worth listening to unless you have a HD radio set up in your house that will [potentially] keep the signal. HD FM 1's work because you can always fall back to the analog, which you ALWAYS will.

Everything I needed to know about digital I learned on June 12th 2009.

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KJR and KVI were both stereo and running oldies at the time. I had an AM stereo tuner when I lived in Tsawassen and could easily hear both in Stereo...I was sad that KKFX and KJET were mono.

mimo said:

KJR and KVI were both stereo and running oldies at the time. I had an AM stereo tuner when I lived in Tsawassen and could easily hear both in Stereo...I was sad that KKFX and KJET were mono.

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If those stations were digital only, you'd be hearing quite a bit of dead silence. No static, no fade!

"unless you have a HD radio set up in your house"

Yes a Sangean HDT-1. It has 3 banks of FM presets and 2 for AM as well as direct keypad tuning. I can pick up everything in the market with the included wire FM and loop AM antennas. You can force it to receive analog only or let it switch to digital when the buffer fills. I have it in my living room stereo system and listen to radio all the time on it. Both AM and FM, HD and analog.

Being a radio geek, and it being a good radio, you should try one.

I look forward to the testing on 1520 and will be happy to give a reception report from my location in Seattle.

Just to set the record straight, the folks at KIRO AM would surely disagree with the statement that NO ONE is listening to AM radio. They are top 10 Adults 18+ in last book and of course much higher than that when you get 'in demo". A 3.7 beats plenty of the FM's. Just trying to keep the conversation real.

KQMV-FM Pop Contemporary Hit Radio 5.9 6.4 6.2
KRWM-FM Adult Contemporary 6.3 5.7 5.8
KKWF-FM Country 4.5 4.9 5.0
KISW-FM Active Rock 4.5 4.2 4.9
KCMS-FM Christian Adult Contemporary 4.8 4.8 4.5
KZOK-FM Classic Rock 4.1 5.1 4.4
KIRO-FM News Talk Information 4.0 3.4 4.3
KIRO-AM All Sports 3.7 3.1 3.7
KJR-FM Classic Hits 4.0 3.7 3.7
KPLZ-FM Hot Adult Contemporary 3.2 3.3 3.6

Blatherwatch said:

I have to laff at anything digital, whether its land mobile, tv or raydio. It cuts the receive signal down to about half or more, unless the broadcasters want to add boosters or more towers, which they don't... I do remember 'am stereo' when it came out.

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P25 in LMR use works fine..so does NXDN and other digital modes on LMR.....it does NOT cut the receive down to half...in fact, P25 seems to have better coverage than analog on the same frequency (now VHF or UHF vs 800? Thats a different matter....and does not depend on the mode)...

As for AM Stereo the FCC made the woosy mistake of backing off after choosing the Magnavox system 1st and then recanting that after threatened with lawsuits, etc...radio manufacturers could not get Kahn to license any design so Sony and one other rcvr builder made their own multimode decoder design....but others did not want to do that....by the time the FCC decided on the Motorola CQUAM system in the late 80s, the manufacturers said "screw this" and only some car radios had Motorola CQUAM in them into the 90s...AM stereo is still active and done right, sounds damn good....

notalent said:

"unless you have a HD radio set up in your house"

Yes a Sangean HDT-1. It has 3 banks of FM presets and 2 for AM as well as direct keypad tuning. I can pick up everything in the market with the included wire FM and loop AM antennas. You can force it to receive analog only or let it switch to digital when the buffer fills. I have it in my living room stereo system and listen to radio all the time on it. Both AM and FM, HD and analog.

Being a radio geek, and it being a good radio, you should try one.

I look forward to the testing on 1520 and will be happy to give a reception report from my location in Seattle.

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I could do all of that, too. However, I wont because I am stubborn. I changed everything for DTV and saw how well that worked out

ContinuousWave said:

AM stereo is still active and done right, sounds damn good....

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I still think that AM stereo could be a way to keep AM alive in the future if they could come up with a plan. AM stereo really CAN compete with FM radio. Well, maybe not small stations that don't have the license and power to stay noise free, but bigger stations for sure. When 1090 used to run classic country in AM stereo it sounded like a FM radio station (without any fluttering of the stereo lock).

You could drive in a mountainous area while listening to FM radio and hear a bunch of static in the background (not to mention the stereo light blinking on and off constantly). At the same time, you could be listening to 1090 in AM stereo without any interference and an iron clad lock on the stereo carrier.

If you don't believe me, thats fine. However, I encourage you to check out some examples of AM stereo before you say it wont work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amr43lL1UW8

ContinuousWave said:

P25 in LMR use works fine..so does NXDN and other digital modes on LMR.....it does NOT cut the receive down to half...in fact, P25 seems to have better coverage than analog on the same frequency (now VHF or UHF vs 800? Thats a different matter....and does not depend on the mode)...

As for AM Stereo the FCC made the woosy mistake of backing off after choosing the Magnavox system 1st and then recanting that after threatened with lawsuits, etc...radio manufacturers could not get Kahn to license any design so Sony and one other rcvr builder made their own multimode decoder design....but others did not want to do that....by the time the FCC decided on the Motorola CQUAM system in the late 80s, the manufacturers said "screw this" and only some car radios had Motorola CQUAM in them into the 90s...AM stereo is still active and done right, sounds damn good....

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With the exception that multipath is a P25 killer and multipath does not do well in the State of Washington.

mimo said:

KJR and KVI were both stereo and running oldies at the time. I had an AM stereo tuner when I lived in Tsawassen and could easily hear both in Stereo...I was sad that KKFX and KJET were mono.

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KVI never installed AM stereo. The transmitter and filter system wouldn't allow for the use of AM stereo. KING was the first in the market testing AM stereo with the Kahn Hazeltine system. Unfortunately there were no car radios that could demodulate the Kahn ISB stereo. KJR ran a Motorola system for only about two years before I pulled it out.