Could Cumulus buy the 94.3 on Long Island, turn in the license and then move the allocation somewhere in the middle of nowhere, or is there a distance limit for an allocation move? (Not sure if the FCC would allow such a long-distance move, but hey, it's worth a try... some years ago someone tried to move an AM on 670 from Northern Vermont to the Albany area but it never came to pass)
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WFME -94.7FM Transmitter
- Thread starter e-dawg
- Start date
danikayser84 said:
NO not really it would be "resold" by the FCC.
danikayser84 said:
Maybe
The real problem would be trying to buy 94.3. I bet that station's value is at least $20 million + because of the NYC angle
Is the WFME signal really that bad in NYC that Cumulus should consider jumping through hoops to get on Empire? I just looked at the coverage map and the city-grade contour goes all the way out to the Queens-Nassau border. Do people in the city really have problems picking up this station?
That is not true.WNTIRadio said:
I turn your attention to my neck of the woods for precedence.
WKZM was a Class A on 105.5 in Sa-ra-so-ta!
There was a Class A in New Port Richey on 105.5.
There was a Class A 105.5 in Sebring that moved to 105.7.
WKZM was moved to 104.3 and the 105.5 Sa-ra-so-ta! allocation is removed.
New Port Richey is WDUV and upgraded to a C1.
Sa-ra-so-ta! allocations still exist for AM and FM stations, but 105.5 is gone. The antenna mast has a low power religious station on 97.3.
All this was done to upgrade New Port Richey.
Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
Cumulus may pick a format that wouldn't likely appeal to listeners in the areas where the WFME signal doesn't equal an Empire State signal, so moving the transmitter to NYC wouldn't get them much but a whole lot of expense.
In addition to the cost of all the initial hoop jumping, you have to remember that being on the ESB would permanently increase the station's operating costs by the reported $500-k in annual rent. So, being there would have to bring in a whole lot more revenue than that just to make the move worthwhile.
On the other hand, if Cumulus picks a music format that is unique in the market, that genre's devoted fans will make all kinds of effort to pick up that signal, even if they are on the eastern fringe.
And with the exceptionally strong signal in New Jersey, the station could be very attractive to the big regional companies that do all of their business in New Jersey, and none in New York. That advertiser list includes the big car dealers, banks, insurance companies, utilities, supermarkets and big convenience store chains, as well as the big suburban shopping malls and big box stores that don't have a presence in NYC. It just isn't cost effective for them to pay to reach listeners in NYC and on Long Island who would almost never become their customers.
If the marketing types at Cumulus have done their homework, they already know what types of people live in each zip code where their new signal is strongest and will market appropriately. There are advantages and disadvantages to having the WFME transmitter where it is, and there are ways they can make the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. They are much more likely to try that approach first, before starting a long and expensive process to try and move the transmitter 15-miles east. A process that has very little likelihood of success under current FCC rules and regulations.
In addition to the cost of all the initial hoop jumping, you have to remember that being on the ESB would permanently increase the station's operating costs by the reported $500-k in annual rent. So, being there would have to bring in a whole lot more revenue than that just to make the move worthwhile.
On the other hand, if Cumulus picks a music format that is unique in the market, that genre's devoted fans will make all kinds of effort to pick up that signal, even if they are on the eastern fringe.
And with the exceptionally strong signal in New Jersey, the station could be very attractive to the big regional companies that do all of their business in New Jersey, and none in New York. That advertiser list includes the big car dealers, banks, insurance companies, utilities, supermarkets and big convenience store chains, as well as the big suburban shopping malls and big box stores that don't have a presence in NYC. It just isn't cost effective for them to pay to reach listeners in NYC and on Long Island who would almost never become their customers.
If the marketing types at Cumulus have done their homework, they already know what types of people live in each zip code where their new signal is strongest and will market appropriately. There are advantages and disadvantages to having the WFME transmitter where it is, and there are ways they can make the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. They are much more likely to try that approach first, before starting a long and expensive process to try and move the transmitter 15-miles east. A process that has very little likelihood of success under current FCC rules and regulations.
94.3 can't be moved northeast for the same reason it can't be moved east: second-adjacent stations on 94.7. Moving to west peak puts the station too close to WMAS.
That Sarasota allocation wasn't deleted, it changed frequencies. Big difference.
Connoisseur Media just bought the 4 station cluster with 94.3 last year for 23-ish million. I doubt they're interested in 1) selling so soon or 2) downgrading their property.
That Sarasota allocation wasn't deleted, it changed frequencies. Big difference.
Connoisseur Media just bought the 4 station cluster with 94.3 last year for 23-ish million. I doubt they're interested in 1) selling so soon or 2) downgrading their property.
G
Groove1670
Guest
The WFME signal will do fine, and will reach the millions in cars everyday. Building penetration would probably be poor if it was closer, so it really doesn't matter.
Sometimes we tend to look at those contour lines too close and take them too serious.
Yep, you hit the nail on the head.
Sometimes we tend to look at those contour lines too close and take them too serious.
Yep, you hit the nail on the head.
How can you say a Sa-ra-so-ta! allocation of 105.5 was not deleted. 105.5 absolutely was deleted. Just because the station changed frequencies does not ignore that.reelyreal said:
Since it moved down the dial 800khz, no spacing/adjacents or anything else came into play (except for West Palm Beach if they wanted a full upgrade to C). It was a total upgrade of the station and a complete deletion of an allocation of another. It DID allow an added allocation of 105.3 to Arcadia, though, but that is 40 miles away.
You won't find 105.5, anywhere.
Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
badjef said:
This is basically correct, yes. BUT: the reason this could be done was that there existed sufficient space on the dial for WKZM to be moved to 104.3 in a way that met all of the FCC's spacing rules, as laid out in sections 73.207 and 73.215 of chapter 47 of the CFR. None of these rules was waived, no new precedents were set, and no allocations were deleted, only shifted to different channels.
The equivalent here would be if WWSK's allocation were moved to a different channel to eliminate the short-spacing between WFME-at-Empire and WWSK. What channel would you suggest WWSK move to, while complying with all the existing spacing rules?
(Also: strictly speaking, there's no such thing as an "AM allocation." If WTMY 1280 down your way signed off and returned its license to the FCC, other stations that now protect WTMY would not have to continue protecting a vacant "Sarasota 1280." So it is entirely possible to do what you're suggesting on the AM band, and in fact it has happened right out there on Long Island, where WGLI 1290 Babylon was purchased and silenced to enable the upgrade of WADO 1280, and then again when WLNG 1600 out in Sag Harbor was killed off to allow WWRL to power up. But the rules are different in commercial FM.)
If you are talking in terms of COL, then yes. The same number of stations are licensed to Sa-ra-so-ta! (without my hyphens and exclamation point ;D ) as before. But you won't find 105.5 frequency allocation.Scott Fybush said:
off hand, 105.5, but I haven't seen all directions as I know New Jersey and New York City and not Connecticut or Rhode Island.
Yeah, my bad. I was looking in terms of COL.
Or what Innercity did to WOWO by deflowering that station in favor of WLIB.
Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
badjef said:
Agreed, so far. But also not terribly helpful to what you're trying to do, which is to get 94.3 Smithtown out of the way of WFME-at-Empire...
There's WDHA to contend with - you need 115 km spacing from Dover, and you've only got 103 km at WWSK's present site. And by the time you start going east to get away from WDHA, you're up against WQGN 105.5 in Groton CT and the 105.3 out in Riverhead.
And there's the 69 km of spacing you need from WBLI 106.1, which pretty much rules out all of Long Island for 105.5.
Oh - and there's the exact same problem you have with respect to second-adjacent Empire Bs. Just as the existing WWSK is not protected by pre-1964 grandfathering with respect to WFME, a hypothetical move of the Smithtown allocation from 94.3 to 105.5 would have to be fully spaced to 105.1 at Empire (also to 105.9, of course, but if you're protecting 105.1 you're good for 105.9.)
So whatever distance you have to create from Empire to make 94.3 work, you'd also have to use for 105.5...and then the spacings from 105.5 to everything else are even worse than on 94.3.
See why this isn't as simple as it looks at first glance?
Thought I asked this but don't see it...
What about a booster? 94.7 main transmitter remains where it is in NJ, but they install another transmitter somewhere on Manhattan. (ESB, 4TS, wherever) A booster's coverage is restricted to that of the main transmitter -- so it's not going to improve 94.7's signal on LI any -- but I would think it would address any issues in the city itself.
I suppose the issue is the interference zone, where the booster and the main transmitter both deliver a signal & they interfere with each other. Easy to handle out West where you can often stick the interference zone on an unpopulated mountain. A lot harder when the interference zone lies in North Jersey!
What about a booster? 94.7 main transmitter remains where it is in NJ, but they install another transmitter somewhere on Manhattan. (ESB, 4TS, wherever) A booster's coverage is restricted to that of the main transmitter -- so it's not going to improve 94.7's signal on LI any -- but I would think it would address any issues in the city itself.
I suppose the issue is the interference zone, where the booster and the main transmitter both deliver a signal & they interfere with each other. Easy to handle out West where you can often stick the interference zone on an unpopulated mountain. A lot harder when the interference zone lies in North Jersey!
ai4i said:
There's a cluster of fairly tall buildings in Long Island City, Queens, including the Citibank "big blue building" that's home to the WNYZ-LP "Franken-FM" channel 6/87.7 signal.
The problem is that WFME puts plenty of "oomph" over that whole east side/East River/Brooklyn/Queens area from New Jersey. It's not that it can't be heard there; it's that it suffers from all kinds of multipath from passing through the urban mountain range that is mid-Manhattan. The last thing you want to do in a situation like that is to add a booster into the mix, I'd think.
Yeah. There had to be a good reason that idea didn't some up & that would qualify.
Here's a *really* outside the box idea: Install an auxiliary ("backup") transmitter at the current NJ site, with a directional antenna with a DEEP null towards wherever you put the booster. Its coverage is entirely within that of the main. Pretend the main is dead. (almost all the time) Seems like that may be happening with a, shall we say, *strange* aux in Chicago. It's looking as if the FCC will authorize just about anything as an aux, as long as its coverage is inside that of the main...
I suppose you'd still have serious multipath issues in some areas but maybe you could get those areas out of the city?
(for that matter, could you authorize an aux on 4TS with as much power as fits within the NJ site coverage, and just run it all the time, leaving NJ idle?)
Here's a *really* outside the box idea: Install an auxiliary ("backup") transmitter at the current NJ site, with a directional antenna with a DEEP null towards wherever you put the booster. Its coverage is entirely within that of the main. Pretend the main is dead. (almost all the time) Seems like that may be happening with a, shall we say, *strange* aux in Chicago. It's looking as if the FCC will authorize just about anything as an aux, as long as its coverage is inside that of the main...
I suppose you'd still have serious multipath issues in some areas but maybe you could get those areas out of the city?
(for that matter, could you authorize an aux on 4TS with as much power as fits within the NJ site coverage, and just run it all the time, leaving NJ idle?)
I never said this was easy.Scott Fybush said:
n fact, I said our friends at FR made it worse by leaving the transmitter in West Orange. They never knew, or cared about that signal. To them it was no more than a repeater for Oakland. To even mention making money with it was out of the question.
How do I know? Been there, but didn't do that, as I did not feel as though we were on the same page at all, too bad.
Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
@9WI: That booster with the dead stick at the main idea has been tried. However when the FCC finds out you get a really nasty letter with the word "fine" in it.... and that's a noun, not an adjective.
One idea they MIGHT consider would be downgrading 94.7 to a B-1. I haven'tt done all the math but that might give allow them to move to the ESB.
One idea they MIGHT consider would be downgrading 94.7 to a B-1. I haven'tt done all the math but that might give allow them to move to the ESB.
I'm curious. I know that signal, and with 610w, it gets out pretty well. Not like the rest, but it is a lot better than I would have thought (I used to call them "the little guy"). David Eduardo would differ with me as his experience was not as good.Scott Fybush said:
HD is probably only about 60w.
Is there that much difference to the North and East and Brooklyn?
I figure the hardest thing is to move. Once the move is there, then it is just a matter of power, and that is more paperwork than anything else.
P.S. It's been 3 years, 10 days since the last NYT days of the former W2XR.
Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
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