Where the hits REALLY came from. Two books that tell the truth.

[DavidEduardo]

But DE, not all "stiffs" are bad. You are making it sound that way and essentially assuming that they are, just because classic hits radio supposedly labeled them so.

Let me acquaint you with a term of the trade: "stiffed out".

A song may start positive as a new release. It may even have its moment of chart fame. But at some point, listeners don't want to hear it any more and music buyers don't want to buy it, either. That's when we say a song has stiffed out.

It may take a few months for a song to stiff out. It may take years or decades.

But all stiffs are bad because they have developed dislike and rejection. They are negatives, and they drive listeners away.

 

[DavidEduardo]

And what would make an advertiser feel like that woman you mentioned wouldn't also want to stick to her old favorite brand names, with memories attached, and wouldn't ever want to switch to a new product, no matter how many commercials she heard?

Horrible analogy. What you suggest is like saying that Happy Days, during its successful run, should have added Madonna songs to the sound track.

Listeners to classic hits stations go there for the familiarity and the memories. When you introduce unfamiliar songs, the listeners leave.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Funny, I called up a local small market radio station about 10 days ago (KFEZ 101.3), which has a morning request show...and this DJ usually plays your request within 10 minutes. I actually mentioned about how KFEZ plays music that no one else does and the fact that many listeners (including myself) are tired of the same ole on mainstream stations...and guess what....he agreed with me and glad that I had "caught on". Heck, if the employees actually agree....then there's some light at the end of the tunnel.

You tend to select relatively unsuccessful or marginal stations to make your point. KFEZ has a very usable 65 dbu over Pueblo, yet it consistently gets a 0.6 share in the ratings.

Perhaps the programming and the attitude expressed by the DJ are the reasons why it does not do better.

 

[TheBigA]

Don't you just love the absolutist binary logic of the "only the hits" playlist defenders?

There is no greater defense than success. And our goal is to create successful radio stations. The methods we've discussed here have achieved that. If you wish to sell anyone on other ideas, the way to do that is demonstrate how that approach has led to even more success than we're getting now.

 

[Tibbs4]

Even great signals in top markets are tough for numbers for Classic Hits and/or Classic Rockers. It's sort of as if there "has" to be this format in the market, but how important is the format in 2014? Say what you will and why it is this way, but most of us on this thread are a bit out of the desired demographic and even more unnerving is the painful reality that most of the agency buyers are younger than our own sons and daughters. My son is 25 and love vinyl and has my old vast library of albums. He is a rare bird and knows the music and the format, but that's just because I have always made sure he appreciated it. Most of these ad buyers couldn't name the four Beatles. These decades are rolling by way to quickly. I wouldn't want to be programming 2014 songs in 2044. Can't see that kind of longevity that we enjoy (or don not) on this format today.

 

[oldies76]

And obviously those stations stream, and you listen as an out of towner. Your behavior is not counted in their ratings, nor does it make them any money. So you're a basically a freeloader whose entertainment is paid for by someone else.

Actually, KFEZ is in our market. The only problem with this station is that it does not play music 24/7. It has a shopping bargain show during most days and they also play lite jazz after 6pm and on Sundays. I can only hear the music on the way to work (730am).

 

[oldies76]

You tend to select relatively unsuccessful or marginal stations to make your point. KFEZ has a very usable 65 dbu over Pueblo, yet it consistently gets a 0.6 share in the ratings.

Perhaps the programming and the attitude expressed by the DJ are the reasons why it does not do better.

But that's my point. It's a small station playing the hits, that others don't or rarely play. That's the whole point of these discussions. The station is heard in Colorado Springs. Frankly, I'm satisfied because I'm hearing music I enjoy. The big city playlists (even though it's good music) tends to bore me, even if I do stream (Denver, L.A. or NYC), because it's the same presentation for years. So, the best of luck to KFEZ, despite the 0.6 you quoted. What is it ranked among others in town?

 

[oldies76]

Listeners to classic hits stations go there for the familiarity and the memories. When you introduce unfamiliar songs, the listeners leave.

A few listeners leave, not all. But see, that can happen with any song, not just the "unfamiliar" ones. And to mention this again (like a broken record, because I'm forced to once again). EVERY song is familiar to someone, some more than others. No songs go ever go unnoticed. Every song is someone's favorite.

Should I again quote those lyrics from 1973 that Mr. Preston once sang??

 

[oldies76]

My son is 25 and love vinyl and has my old vast library of albums. He is a rare bird and knows the music and the format, but that's just because I have always made sure he appreciated it. Most of these ad buyers couldn't name the four Beatles. These decades are rolling by way to quickly. I wouldn't want to be programming 2014 songs in 2044. Can't see that kind of longevity that we enjoy (or don not) on this format today.

Music of the 50's through the early-mid 80's are timeless. Most of today's music (except for a select few) will never achieve the status of timeless, such as the older music we all grew up with. It cannot and will never compare. As much as I like that Gotye song and "Little Talks" by Monsters and Men, they will not achieve that status of longevity.

I've been to numerous places (retail and restaurants) this past month and guess what kind of music they were playing continuously?? That's right....the 60's and 70's, not the current stuff.

 

[Tibbs4]

It is interesting to also note that just as many people that listened to radio in their youth, when these songs were on the charts, had fewer music choices and I don't recall any of the major stations having a huge playlist. It was probably 50-100. And the jocks prepped the listeners when a new song was being released and explained who it was and why.

Who didn't punch buttons on your car radio if you had competiting stations. How many times did you hear the same song being played on three or four stations? WE were taught that repetition meant popular and to fit in everyone knew the songs by heart and loom how many singles were sold!

I can't imagine a station in 2014 being able to constructively dig up a bunch of songs that never got any real airplay back in their heyday and keeping listeners engaged for long. Talk about a niche of a niche format. Hippie does a Sunday Night Vinyl album hour. That makes sense. The time it airs also makes sense. Not something that would roll on afternoon drive.

 

[TheBigA]

Actually, KFEZ is in our market. The only problem with this station is that it does not play music 24/7. It has a shopping bargain show during most days and they also play lite jazz after 6pm and on Sundays. I can only hear the music on the way to work (730am).

Have you asked them why they do this?

 

[Tibbs4]

Oldies - I agree with your analogy on current musics "future." I am sure today's generation thinks it will be around in decades to come, since "our" music is still around. I know I am considered OLD, but that doesn't mean I am deaf and out of touch. I still have taste and I have NO taste for most of the music out today. BigA and David can probably program the music with their eyes closed. I haven't worked with a current hits format since the mid80s. I could do it from data, but not from my heart and I would probably miss the flow and energy. I think we have to admit we were around at the best time musically, and enjoyed it in the best years to enjoy it. That we still live and appreciate it to this level of debate and discussion sure says it was (and is) an amazingly resilient product. I still get tired of some of it being played into the ground, but again, I am reminded that the requests and responses to the songs I tend to like the least are the most loved by the majority of the callers who take time to call in or email requests. It keeps my in check, my friend! I know I am wrong 94.5 percent of the time! My wife reminds me of that as often as an Eagles song plays.

 

[firepoint525]

It is interesting to also note that just as many people that listened to radio in their youth, when these songs were on the charts, had fewer music choices and I don't recall any of the major stations having a huge playlist. It was probably 50-100. And the jocks prepped the listeners when a new song was being released and explained who it was and why.
Who didn't punch buttons on your car radio if you had competiting stations. How many times did you hear the same song being played on three or four stations? WE were taught that repetition meant popular and to fit in everyone knew the songs by heart and loom how many singles were sold!
I can't imagine a station in 2014 being able to constructively dig up a bunch of songs that never got any real airplay back in their heyday and keeping listeners engaged for long. Talk about a niche of a niche format. Hippie does a Sunday Night Vinyl album hour. That makes sense. The time it airs also makes sense. Not something that would roll on afternoon drive.

You sort of peripherally touched on an issue that I wanted to raise, that being that most of us are finding that we must increasingly rely on "rimshot" stations for "our" music, because the stations that we used to listen to have now moved on to other formats. But as the Beatles sang, "Life Goes On." Fortunately for me, this time around, Hippie is on my side of town so no real difficulty for me to tune in. But when I was having to settle for WKOM, it was often very difficult for me to receive their signal. Still is, but now I am much less reliant upon them. Nashville is divided roughly in thirds among classic hits/oldies fans, with Hippie on the west side of town, WKOM to the south, and WVCP northeast of town.

Also, as you alluded to, I am finding that I am increasingly listening more on weekends, as that is when most of the specialty programs seem to air. But it works out for me quite nicely there as well, because television has become such a wasteland on weekends. Network television has totally given up on Saturday nights. It is only "rerunsville," anymore.

 

[Tibbs4]

What do you like on weekends on Hippie, Fire? I know my ADD is rampant on here, but I do want to mention something that has confused me for ten years, plus. Maybe DE and BigA can expand on this. I totally cannot figure out why radio is excluded from the commercials that cover night time on TV. No matter what you watch on HGTV, Sports, News, etc.,you see nothing but commercials for our 50 plus and older populations bodies falling apart from the inside out. Be it a purple pill, a blue pill, gross undergarments, people falling and needing help or old folks using high tech wheelchairs that could get you a speeding ticket, the market is there for the demo forgotten by radio agency buyers. I say conspiracy theory, but seriously, us ancients didn't buy Viagra from age 18, or take heart meds from 25, so there is a market for new buys on that in our demo. Why the double vision standard? If all that money was include in radio, like it is on FOX and CNN, then i bet there would be some radio love for us old hippies.

 

[DavidEduardo]

What do you like on weekends on Hippie, Fire? I know my ADD is rampant on here, but I do want to mention something that has confused me for ten years, plus. Maybe DE and BigA can expand on this. I totally cannot figure out why radio is excluded from the commercials that cover night time on TV. No matter what you watch on HGTV, Sports, News, etc.,you see nothing but commercials for our 50 plus and older populations bodies falling apart from the inside out. Be it a purple pill, a blue pill, gross undergarments, people falling and needing help or old folks using high tech wheelchairs that could get you a speeding ticket, the market is there for the demo forgotten by radio agency buyers. I say conspiracy theory, but seriously, us ancients didn't buy Viagra from age 18, or take heart meds from 25, so there is a market for new buys on that in our demo. Why the double vision standard? If all that money was include in radio, like it is on FOX and CNN, then i bet there would be some radio love for us old hippies.

The ad buys for products targeting seniors on TV fall in several subsets.

Generally, those ads are on the cable channels, not CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, CW, Univision, Telemundo and the broadcast networks in general.

First, a lot of those ads which are in the stair-stepper category are PI ads run when the cable network needs to fill time that can be used if sold by local cable systems. If the local cable operator does not cover all the time it is allowed, it runs what comes down from the cable channel. The cable channel makes a few bucks,, and fills the local avails in case they are unsold. There are also a lot of PI ads done in overnights, too.

Second, there are a lot of products that sell on "appetite appeal" and require visuals. Cruises are one example.. they depict the sights and sounds of an ocean voyage and show people having great fun. Very hard to do on radio. Or the pills: they show how people have fun, active lives with their partner or walking with the dog on the beach when they take pills of different colors.

Third are the ones that look for environment. There are cable nets that swing old. They pick up the business for things generally only used by seniors. Since they are national buys, and seniors spend more time with traditional TV than any other group, what money there is goes into those TV nets.

Fourth, and as a consequence of the first three is the fact that there are essentially no budgets for local spot, radio or TV, for seniors. The brands and products that do buy geezer demos use national media... TV and print. So local stations that target seniors will not get any national buys and will have to live off local direct accounts.

 

[DavidEduardo]

But that's my point. It's a small station playing the hits, that others don't or rarely play. That's the whole point of these discussions. The station is heard in Colorado Springs. Frankly, I'm satisfied because I'm hearing music I enjoy. The big city playlists (even though it's good music) tends to bore me, even if I do stream (Denver, L.A. or NYC), because it's the same presentation for years. So, the best of luck to KFEZ, despite the 0.6 you quoted. What is it ranked among others in town?

Last

 

[TheBigA]

Fourth, and as a consequence of the first three is the fact that there are essentially no budgets for local spot, radio or TV, for seniors. The brands and products that do buy geezer demos use national media... TV and print. So local stations that target seniors will not get any national buys and will have to live off local direct accounts.

Well, not always. We often see talk radio stations running long form info-mercials, as they're called, on the weekends. Those are aimed at the same demos. But once again "environment" is very important. They won't use music stations because music listeners hate commercials. But talk listeners are more likely to sit through an hour-long info-mercial on reverse mortgages or similar subjects. The real bad news is that because these ads are "per inquiry," the stations only make money when listeners call the specific 1-800 number. Really low percentage money. Much easier to target a younger demo with content, program the station to maximize cume, and hopefully get something closer to real money. Obviously some stations have no choice. But if you have a full signal FM in a major market, why would you?

The other thing is national radio. Some of these products use national radio networks in the same way. But once again, they're paying next to nothing, and while it may fill in empty slots, it doesn't do much for radio company revenues.

 

[Avid Listener]

Music of the 50's through the early-mid 80's are timeless. Most of today's music (except for a select few) will never achieve the status of timeless, such as the older music we all grew up with. It cannot and will never compare. As much as I like that Gotye song and "Little Talks" by Monsters and Men, they will not achieve that status of longevity.

I've been to numerous places (retail and restaurants) this past month and guess what kind of music they were playing continuously?? That's right....the 60's and 70's, not the current stuff.

Amen!

Another big Amen! The music is timeless. There are current artists making the exact same style of music as the 50's through the early 80's. And for every emotional basket case whose life is a tear-jerking sob story and who only wants to hear nostalgia that reminds her of her lost youth, there are dozens and dozens of people who want to hear all the old hits, plus a few additional songs from the era, plus a few new songs that sound like the old songs, all in the right proportion and done with some degree of professionalism and finesse.

I don't hear you or me or anyone else who's advocating for a little bit of additional depth who is asking for the ludicrous degree of "instant tune-out" songs that those who hate music but love programming it on the radio like so much pig slop accuse us of advocating.

OK, so playing a cut from one of the top selling albums of 1979 that got some airplay when it was new, but not enough to make it to the top of the charts every other hour might make that hypothetical sob-sister change the station (though God only knows what alternative she'd have if all she wants is to remember her Prom!), but if promoted, it would make many other people whose main preference is CD's or their iPod reconsider turning their radios on. The same goes for one new cut by a classic era artist, or one new cut from a new act that's faithfully recreating the style of music of yesteryear.

 

[TheBigA]

But if promoted, it would make many other people whose main preference is CD's or their iPod reconsider turning their radios on.

Says who?

These statements have no power without numbers. There are people in this world who take statements like that, and try to quantify them. And then they try out theories to get actual statistics on how actual humans respond. These are the kinds of things that doctoral students at universities build theses around. And then they take that thesis, sit in a room with four Ph. Ds, and have that thesis ripped to shreds. So before you make grandiose statements like this without doing any work, let's show at least a little respect to the people who've put the time in, and know what they're talking about. I know the internet makes experts of everyone. You don't have to know Russian politics to post blogs about it. But there are still places that won't let you touch the programming on a multi-million dollar radio station without presenting some authenticated numbers.

 

[oldies76]

Says who?

These statements have no power without numbers. There are people in this world who take statements like that, and try to quantify them. And then they try out theories to get actual statistics on how actual humans respond. These are the kinds of things that doctoral students at universities build theses around. And then they take that thesis, sit in a room with four Ph. Ds, and have that thesis ripped to shreds. So before you make grandiose statements like this without doing any work, let's show at least a little respect to the people who've put the time in, and know what they're talking about. I know the internet makes experts of everyone. You don't have to know Russian politics to post blogs about it. But there are still places that won't let you touch the programming on a multi-million dollar radio station without presenting some authenticated numbers.

Numbers, numbers, numbers.....010101010101010101.

How about actual HUMAN, one on one, eye to eye contacts?? Why rely on zeros and ones?? Digital data??
It's really mind boggling and absurd that YOU and David can speak for the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of INDVIDUALS, which if YOU separated them out, ONE BY ONE, you'd have a fascinating list of INDIVIDUAL songs and ideas, that YOU and David have probably never heard of in your "digital" careers.

"Says Who" says Big A??? Do you speak for the other millions of listeners?? I think not. Did you ask person #76543 and person #101799 or how about person #68 or #896227? You only have 999,996 left to interview. Better get busy.

Wow..