THREAT TO XM OR SIRIUS ???

[oldiesstation]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Breaking News:

The HD Digital Radio Alliance of big broadcast group owners has revealed the first 28 markets in which they are readying launches of multicast programming, and the top 12 U.S. radio markets are among them. The group has also released more details on the kinds of formats we can expect on HD2 channels.

Alliance President/CEO Peter Ferrara says the first of the new formats are expected to go on the air in a few days.

The rollouts mark the first wide-scale launch of HD2 multicast channels, with each market airing what the groups call new and unique content. Through the selection process, each market gets its own mix of new programming.

Some of the new formats to be introduced in the first wave include a specialized opera format, Classical Alternative, Traditional Jazz & Blues, Coffee House, Female Talk, Future Country, Extreme Hip Hop, in-depth news and various new rock formats.

Including the 28 markets where multicast channels will be introduced, a total of some 264 new HD2 channels will be multicast.

The cities are markets 1 through 12 - which are New York, L.A., Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, Philly, Houston, Washington, Boston, Detroit, Atlanta and Miami - plus Seattle, Baltimore, Portland (Ore.,) Cincinnati, San Jose, Indianapolis, Memphis, Hartford, Birmingham, Dayton, Tulsa, Albuquerque, El Paso, Springfield (Mass.) and Wichita.

 

[SamBuca]

IBOC radio = $500
IBOC radio capable of multicasting = Nonexistent

XM/Sirius receiver plus install = $99

Nothing to see here...move along.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[John_U]

> IBOC radio = $500
> IBOC radio capable of multicasting = Nonexistent
>
> XM/Sirius receiver plus install = $99
>
> Nothing to see here...move along.
>

City with three FM = 6 HD channels (if ever)

Satellite = 100 Chanels everywhere

Still nothing to see

 

[w9wi]

> > IBOC radio = $500
> > IBOC radio capable of multicasting = Nonexistent
> >
> > XM/Sirius receiver plus install = $99
> >
> > Nothing to see here...move along.
> >
>
> City with three FM = 6 HD channels (if ever)
>
> Satellite = 100 Chanels everywhere
>
> Still nothing to see

Drive 75 miles out of town to go to the beach; satellite works all the way out.

MP3 player works all the way out. (and you never have to listen to a tune you don't like)

HD2; disappears what, 40 miles from the transmitter?

I can see HD selling to a small fraction of the potential satellite audience. People with little disposable income & who don't travel much. But only if receiver prices drop by a factor of 10 or more, and broadcasters don't screw up by loading their HD2 channels with 3-minute commercial breaks and five different varieties of pop.

There are nowhere near enough such people to be a threat to XM/Sirius' health.

 

[Robert Bass]

> City with three FM = 6 HD channels (if ever)
>
> Satellite = 100 Chanels everywhere

...For everything else, there's MasterCard.

R

 

[k9ez]

> IBOC radio = $500
> IBOC radio capable of multicasting = Nonexistent


What???? Non existant? Huh, I sit in my car and listen to an HD2 channel locally every day.


>
> XM/Sirius receiver plus install = $99
>
> Nothing to see here...move along.
>

 

[jammerdave]

--------------------> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Breaking News:
>
> The HD Digital Radio Alliance of big broadcast group owners
> has revealed the first 28 markets in which they are readying
> launches of multicast programming, and the top 12 U.S. radio
> markets are among them. The group has also released more
> details on the kinds of formats we can expect on HD2
> channels.
>
> Alliance President/CEO Peter Ferrara says the first of the
> new formats are expected to go on the air in a few days.
>
> The rollouts mark the first wide-scale launch of HD2
> multicast channels, with each market airing what the groups
> call new and unique content. Through the selection process,
> each market gets its own mix of new programming.
>
> Some of the new formats to be introduced in the first wave
> include a specialized opera format, Classical Alternative,
> Traditional Jazz & Blues, Coffee House, Female Talk, Future
> Country, Extreme Hip Hop, in-depth news and various new rock
> formats.
>
> Including the 28 markets where multicast channels will be
> introduced, a total of some 264 new HD2 channels will be
> multicast.
>
> The cities are markets 1 through 12 - which are New York,
> L.A., Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, Philly, Houston,
> Washington, Boston, Detroit, Atlanta and Miami - plus
> Seattle, Baltimore, Portland (Ore.,) Cincinnati, San Jose,
> Indianapolis, Memphis, Hartford, Birmingham, Dayton, Tulsa,
> Albuquerque, El Paso, Springfield (Mass.) and Wichita.
>

If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

Sound familiar? It might be awhile until enough HD radios infiltrate the average consumers car, home, walkman, clock radio, etc before it would be much of a threat to satellite..

fmnostatic (should be SIRIUSNOSTATIC)

 

[BoardmanDJ]

> IBOC radio = $500
> IBOC radio capable of multicasting = Nonexistent
>
> XM/Sirius receiver plus install = $99
>
> Nothing to see here...move along.
>

I think that broadcasters are wise to put this stuff in place before there are a ton or recievers. That way it's there as people begin to get new radios.
Unlike TV, who seems content with broadcasting 1kw digital until the day before the FCC forces thair analog off the air in many areas. No wodner HDTV sales are down.

 

[BrokeEngineer]

Yeah, thier scared...LOL

What none of these brainiacs thought of is the fact that Ascap, BMI, etc. will want thier cut on the side channels as well. They are just biding thier time waiting for radio to implement IBOC so they can pounce and say hey, "you aired it you owe". We can't program one channel properly, how the **** are we gonna do 3? The same 50 songs on each of the side bands? Lovely.


G
***quietly steps down off soapbox, puts down head and walks out of the back of the room***

 

[BrokeEngineer]

come on

Please stop with the "if you drive around the world 80 times you never lose sat". How many people drive 40 miles away from the transmitter? That argument that you can drive from New York to LA and keep the same station is stupid, who drives this? Do I have XM? No. Sirius? No. When I get tired of radio, I know how to use my CD player. If people feel the need to pay for radio, then more power to you, it's not for me but please, for the love of God stop with the 100 channel and 40 mile thing huh? And out of those 100, you listen to what, 2 of them?
We won't even get into how it sounds.

 

[ChiefCheese]

> > > IBOC radio = $500
> > > IBOC radio capable of multicasting = Nonexistent
> > >
> > > XM/Sirius receiver plus install = $99
> > >
> > > Nothing to see here...move along.
> > >
> >
> > City with three FM = 6 HD channels (if ever)
> >
> > Satellite = 100 Chanels everywhere
> >
> > Still nothing to see
>
> Drive 75 miles out of town to go to the beach; satellite
> works all the way out.
>
> MP3 player works all the way out. (and you never have to
> listen to a tune you don't like)
>
> HD2; disappears what, 40 miles from the transmitter?

I've been reading this same complaint around other boards. Those of you who think this are missing the point utterly. The point of IBOC is not to go farther out, OK? It was originally to get rid of the negative effects of multipath. It does that incredibly well. If you haven't heard it in a moving vehicle, then don't bother responding. You don't know what you're talking about.

And, by the way, anyone can look at the Sirius and XM boards. Tons of threads
about bad reception.
>
> I can see HD selling to a small fraction of the potential
> satellite audience. People with little disposable income &
> who don't travel much. But only if receiver prices drop by
> a factor of 10 or more, and broadcasters don't screw up by
> loading their HD2 channels with 3-minute commercial breaks
> and five different varieties of pop.
>
> There are nowhere near enough such people to be a threat to
> XM/Sirius' health.
>

 

[RadioRob]

Reality Check

"When I get tired
> of radio, I know how to use my CD player."

You and the rest of the population that grew tired of radio and found CD players, media players, iTunes, Napster, the internet and the not so distant concept of city wide wi-fi, handheld video players, and, oh yeah, XM and Sirius.

Face it gang, radio no longer owns the portable entertainment market. These new fangled HD radios have missed two Christmas shopping seasons. Meanwhile, both satellite radio providers as well as Apple have saturated the market with product and lots of advertising.

The only way IBOC will work:

Receivers must be available widespread and cost equal or cheaper than their portable competition.

Programming that is able to motivate the purchase of a receiver.

So far, neither has happened.

Will somebody page the spirit of Powell Crosley Jr, his services are needed.
<P ID="signature">______________
The radio business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.</P>

 

[w9wi]

> I've been reading this same complaint around other boards.
> Those of you who think this are missing the point utterly.
> The point of IBOC is not to go farther out, OK? It was
> originally to get rid of the negative effects of multipath.
> It does that incredibly well. If you haven't heard it in a
> moving vehicle, then don't bother responding. You don't
> know what you're talking about.

I've not heard IBOC in a moving vehicle. I will concede it is possible (edit: probable!) IBOC completely cleans up the problem of multipath.

That's a lot of money to spend to clean up a non-existant problem.

Of all my friends, neighbors, and relatives, there is ONE person who doesn't listen to FM because of multipath. (he listens to AM instead... I suspect his actual problem with FM is the formats...)

In my daily commute to work here in Nashville, and in my travels in 48 states, 9 provinces of Canada, and the vast majority of radio markets, I've heard multipath but only rarely and never with enough severity and persistence to justify the expenditure of $100 on a HD receiver. (let alone $500) Friends, neighbors, and relatives have listened in a wide variety of markets, large, small, flat, and mountainous.

I think one can be reasonably sure more people will tune out because of interference from adjacent IBOC sidebands to favorite stations than are tuning out now because of multipath.

== edit follows ==

(that's what I get for posting at 2am...)

WRT to the coverage question, certainly, IBOC is not intended to extend a station's coverage. (arguably, it's specifically designed *not* to extend it)

In attempting to sell IBOC as a digital radio service, satellite is your competition. The would-be digital radio customer must weigh various advantages of each system. For example, in favor of IBOC, no monthly fees. In favor of satellite, more channels. The improved coverage of satellite (certainly not perfect, but certainly much better than IBOC) is a point in favor of that mode.
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by w9wi on 01/19/06 02:04 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[ChiefCheese]

> > I've been reading this same complaint around other boards.
>
> > Those of you who think this are missing the point utterly.
>
> > The point of IBOC is not to go farther out, OK? It was
> > originally to get rid of the negative effects of
> multipath.
> > It does that incredibly well. If you haven't heard it in
> a
> > moving vehicle, then don't bother responding. You don't
> > know what you're talking about.
>
> I've not heard IBOC in a moving vehicle. I will concede it
> is possible (edit: probable!) IBOC completely cleans up the
> problem of multipath.
>
> That's a lot of money to spend to clean up a non-existant
> problem.

Having worked in San Francisco for most of my career, I can tell you that multi-path and related issues are probably what has kept AM alive there. I'm in Seattle now, and the situation is similar, if not worse. 'Non-existent' problem? Hmmm.
>
> Of all my friends, neighbors, and relatives, there is ONE
> person who doesn't listen to FM because of multipath. (he
> listens to AM instead... I suspect his actual problem with
> FM is the formats...)

Prior to HD and Satellite they didn't have any choice, did they? I think most users probably thought LPs were just great until CDs came along.
>
> In my daily commute to work here in Nashville, and in my
> travels in 48 states, 9 provinces of Canada, and the vast
> majority of radio markets, I've heard multipath but only
> rarely and never with enough severity and persistence to
> justify the expenditure of $100 on a HD receiver. (let
> alone $500) Friends, neighbors, and relatives have listened
> in a wide variety of markets, large, small, flat, and
> mountainous.

I guess you've never been to SFO or Seattle. I can't speak for the places you've been of course but I find it hard to believe you've never had much of an issue with it.
>
> I think one can be reasonably sure more people will tune out
> because of interference from adjacent IBOC sidebands to
> favorite stations than are tuning out now because of
> multipath.

Absolutely not. I think Seattle now has 14 HD stations on FM and I listen every day, on my way in to work, often with my radio on "scan" (just to see what stations it stops on) and I've yet to hear any interference from HD sidebands. No one has contacted either of our stations (we have two on now) complaining either.

I can understand that many listeners would have no interest in HD...at least right now...but there are so many attacks on the technology. That's the part I don't understand. I'm left with the impression that many of these attackers have never even heard HD.
>
> == edit follows ==
>
> (that's what I get for posting at 2am...)
>
> WRT to the coverage question, certainly, IBOC is not
> intended to extend a station's coverage. (arguably, it's
> specifically designed *not* to extend it)
>
> In attempting to sell IBOC as a digital radio service,
> satellite is your competition. The would-be digital radio
> customer must weigh various advantages of each system. For
> example, in favor of IBOC, no monthly fees. In favor of
> satellite, more channels. The improved coverage of
> satellite (certainly not perfect, but certainly much better
> than IBOC) is a point in favor of that mode.
>

 

[k9ez]

Re: Reality Check

Lets see.... Sat Radio is what... 0.3%?? And out of those how many are portable? Even iPod offers an FM radio now. Ya they are saturating the market. NOT.


> "When I get tired
> > of radio, I know how to use my CD player."
>
> You and the rest of the population that grew tired of radio
> and found CD players, media players, iTunes, Napster, the
> internet and the not so distant concept of city wide wi-fi,
> handheld video players, and, oh yeah, XM and Sirius.
>
> Face it gang, radio no longer owns the portable
> entertainment market. These new fangled HD radios have
> missed two Christmas shopping seasons. Meanwhile, both
> satellite radio providers as well as Apple have saturated
> the market with product and lots of advertising.
>



> The only way IBOC will work:
>
> Receivers must be available widespread and cost equal or
> cheaper than their portable competition.
>
> Programming that is able to motivate the purchase of a
> receiver.
>
> So far, neither has happened.
>
> Will somebody page the spirit of Powell Crosley Jr, his
> services are needed.
>

 

[Russty]

Re: go on; look ahead!

To start off, this is not directed specifically at PBE. This was just a convenient space for me to jump in and blabber for a while about HD and Satellite, and to look ahead to the future.

> How many people drive 40 miles away
> from the transmitter?

You may be suprised at the answer. I know that here on Long Island, Major Market #18 which also happens to be in the shadow of NYC, people drive all over the Tri-County region. What blows my mind, is that up in places like Connecticut, the rest of New England, Upstate NY, Pennsylvania, and many other places that are not big built up urban centers, people think nothing of driving even further and longer. Another factor to keep in mind, is that the 40 mile rule applies to your big city grade signals that really get out well. Yes, I am referring to stations like WPLJ, where people like my sister listen, even though she lives roughly 85 miles away from the Empire State Building where WPLJ transmitts from. HD is not going to help her hear Scott and Todd in the morning any clearer. Then you need to figure in the factor that most of our radio stations here on Long Island, are not the same kind of Big City signals that are coming from Midtown Manhattan. Most of our FM's are pretty limited with their analog range to begin with. What is their HD range going to be? The only saving grace is that the HD system is designed to default to analog when the digital signal becomes unusable. A fellow I was just talking to yesterday comes from a different part of the country. He said that the radio stations here are really limited in their range.

Not that I am advocating Sattelite either. I always talk to non-radio people and listen to when they are talking about radio. There is currently a lot of talk about Sattelite radio. There is a lot of reluctance to it as well, as most people really can not justify paying for radio. Nobody however is talking about HD radio. People just don't know about it.

> And out of those 100, you listen to
> what, 2 of them?

Another valid argument people have against Satellite. Those who are into it, seem to like it. Those who aren't, seem to be in the majority.

> We won't even get into how it sounds.

Neither satellite nor HD has spectacular sound. I must say that I am really underwhelmed by the digital sound quality of all of these services. How come HD-FM sounds no better really than HD-AM? I would logically conclude that the extra bandwidth of the FM band should allow for more data bandwidth, thus resulting in better sound. I was really suprised at this.

I don't think sattelite radio is going to fail, however I also don't see it catching on quite as big as Cable TV, at least not for a long time. As others have pointed out, you can listen to the same station from LA to New York. True, but who is going to do that? Well, Truck drivers sure do. They were early adopters of this technology. Therefore I think there will always be a market for Sattelite, because you do have Truck Drivers, and people who do a lot of business travelling.

I still firmly believe though that neither Sattelite radio nor HD Radio is going to catch on really big. The reason is because of Broadband Wireless. There are already entire cities with full WiFi coverage. There have also been recent major advancements in Long Range Broadband wireless. There are also exciting developments in webcasting technology. These advancements will allow for much less usage of bandwidth in order to stream content. In the future, people won't care what station they are listening to. People will tell their radios that they want to hear Howard Stern, and the radio will seek out Howard Stern and bring him to them. The end user won't care whether Howard is coming to them via an FM transmitter, a WiFi connection, or off of a sattelite. Until that day comes, and it is coming, Satellite radio will get by OK, and HD will exist. My guess though is that HD is going to be like the digital version of AM Stereo. Sure, there are still a few AM Stations that broadcast C-Quam, but other than a small percentage of the population that are enthusiasts, no one even really knows about it.

The future of audio/video content distribution is going to get more and more complicated. Things are going to change a lot. People will be able to buy iTunes music right on their iPods or similar devices which will have Blackberry/Bluetooth/etc ability and Broadband wireless access. The digital revolution is on! The world of media is going to be much different than our current concept of it. I don't even think we can currently fathom all that will be available or possible. That is what makes digital fun. Digital is adaptable. To simply do digitally what we have been doing all along in the analog world is the wrong approach. Innovative Ideas, like Sarnoff's Idea to use radio to broadcast, is what will make Digital radio catch on.

 

[k9ez]

> > I've been reading this same complaint around other boards.
>
> > Those of you who think this are missing the point utterly.
>
> > The point of IBOC is not to go farther out, OK? It was
> > originally to get rid of the negative effects of
> multipath.
> > It does that incredibly well. If you haven't heard it in
> a
> > moving vehicle, then don't bother responding. You don't
> > know what you're talking about.
>
> I've not heard IBOC in a moving vehicle. I will concede it
> is possible (edit: probable!) IBOC completely cleans up the
> problem of multipath.
>
> That's a lot of money to spend to clean up a non-existant
> problem.
>
> Of all my friends, neighbors, and relatives, there is ONE
> person who doesn't listen to FM because of multipath. (he
> listens to AM instead... I suspect his actual problem with
> FM is the formats...)

Well of course you live in Nashville. Have you heard FM along the Palisades Parkway in NJ beside NYC??? Multipath city! Others have mentioned SF. Chicago is a nightmare in the Loop. And so on......


>
> In my daily commute to work here in Nashville, and in my
> travels in 48 states, 9 provinces of Canada, and the vast
> majority of radio markets, I've heard multipath but only
> rarely and never with enough severity and persistence to
> justify the expenditure of $100 on a HD receiver. (let
> alone $500) Friends, neighbors, and relatives have listened
> in a wide variety of markets, large, small, flat, and
> mountainous.
>
> I think one can be reasonably sure more people will tune out
> because of interference from adjacent IBOC sidebands to
> favorite stations than are tuning out now because of
> multipath.
>

Please help me... I have not once witnessed interference on FM due to IBOC. And I have been listening. I provided this example before..... One of our HD stations had a little trouble with the analog transmitter. The HD kept going. I could DX a station 100+ miles away ON FREQUENCY in addition to hearing adjacent stations. Yes HD Radio may take out some of the next channel, but TYPICALLY those stations are spread out enough that it isnt an issue. Yesterday I was listening to an HD station and went up frequncy, and heard their analog splatter over the HD Signal. So I cant buy that there is a problem with HD on FM blocking out other stations that are typically listenable.
> == edit follows ==
>
> (that's what I get for posting at 2am...)
>
> WRT to the coverage question, certainly, IBOC is not
> intended to extend a station's coverage. (arguably, it's
> specifically designed *not* to extend it)
>
> In attempting to sell IBOC as a digital radio service,
> satellite is your competition. The would-be digital radio
> customer must weigh various advantages of each system. For
> example, in favor of IBOC, no monthly fees. In favor of
> satellite, more channels. The improved coverage of
> satellite (certainly not perfect, but certainly much better
> than IBOC) is a point in favor of that mode.
>

 

[BrokeEngineer]

I am looking, like a limiter

Hell, even if you were directing it at me that is fine. I whole heartedly agree with your points and you basically expound on what I was saying. My only gripe is people that are driving the band wagon screaming that Skyradio is so great cause you can drive to and fro with it and "all the channels". I am tired of hearing it is all. Way to much coffee when I posted above.
On the other hand, I did do OTR trucking for years and if I still did, I damn sure would look into it. I drove to Florida this summer with my daugters softball team and enjoyed scanning all the stations on the way down and back. The AM dial sure is lacking in Georgia/South Carolina area. But it was cool lisnteing to our blowtorch AM from Cleveland on and off during the drive.
Way off topic, sorry. <<snaps back to reality>> We need to find a way to co-exist with XM and Sirius and you're right, there is another medium around the corner knocking real hard to get in.
Reminds me of when everyone was crying about LPFM and then Satelite broke down the back door!
But again, very good points Russty and well put.

 

[w9wi]

> Well of course you live in Nashville. Have you heard FM
> along the Palisades Parkway in NJ beside NYC??? Multipath
> city! Others have mentioned SF. Chicago is a nightmare in
> the Loop. And so on......

Nashville is not precisely flat. (and there's plenty of multipath on TV around here!) I'm quite familiar with the Loop - and while intermod is a problem I really can't say I've found multipath a big issue.

> Please help me... I have not once witnessed interference on
> FM due to IBOC. And I have been listening. I provided this

It does of course do a pretty good job of covering adjacent channels.

To this point in this market (and IIRC in yours) HD hasn't ended up on the stations that would cause the problems. Around here, I will be very surprised if WRLT-100.1 (Class A 30 miles away) survives HD on WVVR-100.3. (Class C0 - with a CP for C - 40 miles away) (I would be delighted to learn otherwise!) In Milwaukee it would be interesting to hear the results of HD on WDDW-104.7 and/or WTKM-104.9. It is not difficult to find similar combinations in other markets, notably in the Northeast but also in the Milwaukee<=>Chicago corridor. (how about Chicago-area 92.5 vs. 92.3?)

A number of acquaintances in New Jersey recently lost WUSL 98.9, after WAWZ lit up their HD.

For the most part the interference won't be a problem in the central portions of the markets. (though I think the WDDW/WTKM situation will be an unusual exception!, assuming they ever go HD which I suspect they won't) It's the outlying areas of the markets - places like Kenosha and Clarksville - where it will be noticed.