The other Michael Jackson siting

[Oscar Madison]

Whose tastes changed? Broadcasters became infatuated with Rush and his ilk. As a result, talk radio lost much of its audience - people who had tuned in for people actual news in news/talk and for interviews and a non-polarizing and non-confrontational approach. Look at all the markets today in which public radio news and information stations out-draw commercial talk radio. Talk radio has accomplished one thing however. They have proven H.L. Mencken wrong. You can go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.

 

[TheBigA]

Whose tastes changed? Broadcasters became infatuated with Rush and his ilk. As a result, talk radio lost much of its audience

It took 20 years for that to happen. 20 years of incredible ratings, incredible profits, during which time talk radio was the #1 format in all of radio. So yes, tastes changed. Broadcasters don't care about Rush. They pay him because he delivers ratings and profits. Even now, at his weakened state, with less ratings, they are making money with him. That's why they just signed him to a new deal.

Public radio isn't making more money with their approach. They get more listeners in certain big cities like Boston, DC, and SF. But those listeners are older than radio advertisers want. It's actually becoming a problem for public radio, because those older listeners don't want to spend money on radio, and funders are also looking for younger audiences. The goal isn't ratings, but money. Even in public radio. So in the next five years, you can expect to see people like Terry Gross retire, and not get replaced, just like the Car Talk guys and Diane Rehm.

 

[Oscar Madison]

It took 20 years for that to happen. 20 years of incredible ratings, incredible profits, during which time talk radio was the #1 format in all of radio. So yes, tastes changed. Broadcasters don't care about Rush. They pay him because he delivers ratings and profits. Even now, at his weakened state, with less ratings, they are making money with him. That's why they just signed him to a new deal.

Public radio isn't making more money with their approach. They get more listeners in certain big cities like Boston, DC, and SF. But those listeners are older than radio advertisers want. It's actually becoming a problem for public radio, because those older listeners don't want to spend money on radio, and funders are also looking for younger audiences. The goal isn't ratings, but money. Even in public radio. So in the next five years, you can expect to see people like Terry Gross retire, and not get replaced, just like the Car Talk guys and Diane Rehm.

How do you know what broadcasters do or don't care about? Do you have source for your suppositions?

The goal is money for public radio? And that's different from commercial radio in what way? And the major source of income for public radio is selling spots - pardon me, enhanced commercial underwriting. Funny how public radio sales people - I mean development people - can find companies willing to pay to reach those "old people" whom you disparage. And sales people from commercial stations can't.

 

[TheBigA]

How do you know what broadcasters do or don't care about? Do you have source for your suppositions?

I'm a broadcaster and I don't care. I work for broadcasters, and they don't care. The only thing they care about is results. Thanks for asking.

The goal is money for public radio? And that's different from commercial radio in what way?

Have you read the Public Broadcasting Act of 1967? No rules or laws that prevent public broadcasters from raising money. In fact, when the government drastically cut back federal funding in 1983, they specifically added things that made it easier for public broadcasters to raise money. But the FCC watches them closely, and they've fined a lot of them for those underwriting announcements.

Funny how public radio sales people - I mean development people - can find companies willing to pay to reach those "old people" whom you disparage. And sales people from commercial stations can't.

Not exactly. Commercial radio uses news & talk radio to reach older listeners, and they have advertisers who want to reach them. So does public radio. The problem is music formats. But unfortunately the talk radio audience is now getting so old that it's starting to dry up for both commercial and non-commercial radio.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Whose tastes changed? Broadcasters became infatuated with Rush and his ilk.

Broadcasters, as a group, became thrilled with the prospects of higher ratings and the ability to get syndicated programming that would make their fading AM stations viable in smaller markets.

As a result, talk radio lost much of its audience - people who had tuned in for people actual news in news/talk and for interviews and a non-polarizing and non-confrontational approach.

You are talking for the most part about changes in major, major markets. KABC lost badly in the 90's to KFI. WOR in NYC faded, partly due to WABC and partly due to the aging out of its audience and a change in taste among listeners.

In smaller town America, Rush saved many stations and it's not an exaggeration to say he was the driving force that saved AM for a couple of more decades. Anecdotal experience: I oversaw WDSR in Lake City, FL, a (former) Class IV AM that was doing poorly with a music format. We put Rush on, surrounded by several other syndicated hosts. Soon, we had several restaurants that had a daily "Rush Lunch" where their private dining room had Limbaugh on speakers and folks would come by to eat and hear part of the show.

Previously, there was no talk product that excited the local audience and we had never thought of doing full-time talk.

That evolution of talk radio gave us about two decades of success on stations ranging from Top 10 markets to Traverse City and Klamath Falls.

Look at all the markets today in which public radio news and information stations out-draw commercial talk radio.

"Today" is 25 years after the "Rush Revolution" proved its value and strength. The youth of 1990 is now the 45-64 demo of 2016, and they were not, then, and are not, now, users of long form talk radio. They are the Howard Stern generation, not the Reagan Years generation.

Whatever it is they want is generally not on public or commercial radio (allowing, of course, for a percentage of exceptions and a few "different" markets).

Talk radio has accomplished one thing however. They have proven H.L. Mencken wrong. You can go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.

So the kids of the 60's who liked the Beatles et. al. were somehow smarter than the ones who liked Doris Day and Frank Sinatra?

We are not talking about intelligence... we are talking about the change in broad, general, tastes in what comes out of the radio.

You'll also note that the NPR stations that are getting larger audiences today are on FM, while the Rush-style talk is mostly on AM stations. Most folks under 55 grew up exclusively on FM and don't like the way AM sounds, irrespective of programming.

 

[Oscar Madison]

My Mencken reference was about all the people talk radio drive away in the 90s and 00s - people who liked they style of news/talk radio exemplified by Michael Jackson (and others in markets across the country). Those people either abandoned radio all together or went to public radio. If Michael Jackson were not in his retirement years, he would be right at home in public radio - locally or nationally.

And yes, it is about the intelligence and socio-economic status of the dittohead - tea party - Trump - Fox News demographic.

 

[TheBigA]

Those people either abandoned radio all together or went to public radio.

Or they passed away. Or they listen to sports talk radio, which is obviously non-political. Or they listen to selected local talk show hosts who avoid politics. Just because they don't have the national attention that Rush gets doesn't mean they don't exist at all.

 

[TheBigA]

If Michael Jackson were not in his retirement years, he would be right at home in public radio - locally or nationally.

Actually his last radio appearance was 5 years ago as a fill-in host on KPCC, the public station owned by Pasadena Community College.

 

[michael hagerty]

Michael Jackson was an excellent talk show host for his time. But his and KABC's strengths became their weaknesses. Michael's show was always for a limited audience...Joe Lunchbucket wasn't listening in. For a couple of decades (70s and 80s), Michael's approach attracted enough people in their late 40s and up that George Green was able to charge Mercedes-Benz dealers on the Westside premium spot rates. Good thing too, because even then, KABC's signal was no match for how the population of L.A. was spreading out.

And in the diary days, you could write down that you listened to Michael Jackson for three hours when in fact you got bored 20 minutes in and bailed out for Geoff Edwards on KMPC. The same way TV diary holders wrote down McNeill-Lehrer when they were watching The Gong Show.

The problem was, to anyone not fancying themselves as part of the same world of intelligent chatter as Michael and his guests, the show could get very boring. An hour with Lt. Governor Mervyn Dymally, followed by an hour with Carol Channing, followed by an hour with Gore Vidal. Even if you dug Michael, that was three hours of your life you weren't going to get back.

So when Rush Limbaugh came along with a show focused on issues, on a ten-times stronger signal that covers parts of Southern California where the people least likely to find long, friendly chatter with liberal politicians and Broadway stars to be appointment listening lived, the inevitable happened. It says less about a change in taste or a lowering of the collective IQ than the availability of another option.

McDonalds' sold more burgers than Chasen's did bowls of chili. Ford moves more F-150s in a year in the U.S. than Mercedes sells of its entire line of cars in 18 months. Is anyone surprised?

 

[DavidEduardo]

And in the diary days, you could write down that you listened to Michael Jackson for three hours when in fact you got bored 20 minutes in and bailed out for Geoff Edwards on KMPC. The same way TV diary holders wrote down McNeill-Lehrer when they were watching The Gong Show.

That happened in radio too.

While my favorite anecdote occurred in Puerto Rico, there are parallels everywhere.

Back when rating were done door to door in San Juan, the client was allowed one "ride along" per survey to see the methodology in person. On one of my invitations, the survey crew went to what was a very aspirational upper middle class neighborhood.

We were walking up one side of the street, stopping at each house doing an "in home coincidental" survey. If there was someone home, they were asked "Are you listening to the radio" and if the answer was "Yes" they were asked "What station". They were then asked to turn up the radio a bit, and a portable radio held by the interviewer was used to compare and verify the mentioned station.

As we moved down the street, we could hear music coming from a home several doors away. It was what was called "música jíbara" and was the most "low" kind of music known for its appeal to the Island hillbillies who lived in the mountainous interior rural communities.

We got to the house. "Are you listening to the radio?. "Yes." "What station are you listening to?" The answer was WIPR, which was the government NPR-like educational station. The interviewer did not ask for the volume to be increased.. it was loud enough already. he verified with the radio that it was WKVM, known in the music, radio and advertising industry as the "station of the washerwomen".

If that woman were in LA, she would have said "I'm listening to Michael Jackson on KABC".

 

[Oscar Madison]

Actually his last radio appearance was 5 years ago as a fill-in host on KPCC, the public station owned by Pasadena Community College.

Actually, leased to and operated by Minnesota Public Radio.

 

[TheBigA]

Actually, leased to and operated by Minnesota Public Radio.

But the license is still held by PCC. KPCC is operated by Southern California Public Radio (SCPR), a subsidiary of American Public Media Group, which also owns Minnesota Public Radio.

 

[gr8oldies]

I think Cincinnati is another market where Limbaugh never dominated. WLW's lineup (Scott, McConnell, Burbank, whoever was doing sports talk, and Cunningham) was fairly well established even then, with younger skewing talk and entertainment. Rush was on a competing 50kW at the high end of the dial with an otherwise older audience. Even with iHeart owning all the major AM stations, including the one Limbaugh is on (WKRC), he's never beaten Bill Cunningham on WLW in that slot to my knowledge (by design). WLW at one point would have hour-long author guest segments but they were chopped to a half hour or less.

Michael Jackson was on ABC Talkradio and I heard him in Fort Wayne (WGL). Even they dumped the show for the younger Ted Byrne, and in turn for Alan Colmes.
Talk radio in the early 80s was down to running the audio track of the Merv Griffin TV show.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

It took 20 years for that to happen. 20 years of incredible ratings, incredible profits, during which time talk radio was the #1 format in all of radio. So yes, tastes changed. Broadcasters don't care about Rush. They pay him because he delivers ratings and profits. Even now, at his weakened state, with less ratings, they are making money with him. That's why they just signed him to a new deal.

Public radio isn't making more money with their approach. They get more listeners in certain big cities like Boston, DC, and SF. But those listeners are older than radio advertisers want. It's actually becoming a problem for public radio, because those older listeners don't want to spend money on radio, and funders are also looking for younger audiences. The goal isn't ratings, but money. Even in public radio. So in the next five years, you can expect to see people like Terry Gross retire, and not get replaced, just like the Car Talk guys and Diane Rehm.

But wait in cities like San Francisco the local NPR station also has contracts to air PBS content on their TV station KQED-9. KQED would tell their fans during weekend pledge to donate money to KQED TV and their membership will fund both NPR/PRI/APM/PRX on the radio side and on the TV side will fund PBS programming. Note KQED radio did not become the biggest News/Talk station in San Francisco until PPM arrived.

Also some other parts of the country where the NPR News/Talk station also owns a TV station with a PBS affiliation will have pledge programming done on the weekends Where the host of local Pledge programming say "When you donate to this station as a Sustaining member your dollars will go to both PBS programming and NPR programming"

But back to KABC-AM ever since Michael Jackson left or ever since KABC-AM lost the ABC affiliation
They have been in a struggle. On one hand they made changes to their programming where the talk show host please the HLN demos most notably Dr. Drew in their lineup. Only question here is what can KABC-AM do at this point.

The audiences that like Michael Jackson style of talk radio cannot return to KABC-AM. That type of talk radio went to local NPR News/Talk stations.

 

[TheBigA]

But wait in cities like San Francisco the local NPR station also has contracts to air PBS content on their TV station KQED-9. KQED would tell their fans during weekend pledge to donate money to KQED TV and their membership will fund both NPR/PRI/APM/PRX on the radio side and on the TV side will fund PBS programming.

That sounds like an ownership thing. Because I know other co-owned NPR-PBS stations that do joint fundraising, and the money goes into the same pot.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2a5w8Co8S4c.

Yes Michael Jackson also had a talk show for KCET Los Angeles the former PBS affiliate in the Area.