Redefining CCM?

[vchimpanzee]

I have problems with gospel rap. I have to admit that I would not appreciate Gospel music unless Kirk Franklin, Kurt Carr, Hezkiah Walker and Fred Hammond would not have come along. I do love the old school artists like Rev. Clay Evans, Rev. James Cleveland, Pastor Shirley Caesar, Spiritual QC's and Little Johnnie Taylor and the Soul Stirrers.

Bottom line its about preferences.

I listen to Country Legends 98.3 but I'm on the south end of their range, so in some places I hear a station that plays gospel. One day I heard rap. It turned out to be rap about Jesus. they play music that sounds like urban AC radio, and music that sounds like what is sung in black churches. Sometimes there's preaching.

Yesterday I went to the church I mentioned earlier where they had a rock band in the 11:00 service. They have a contemporary service earlier, though my aunt has said it's Praise and Worship, and she told me only 20 people attend it now. The 11:00 service has the church pretty much full. I have to say the organ playing traditional hymns makes me feel good. A solosist did do a conservative Southern gospel song yesterday.

Getting back to my earlier question, was the term "Praise and Worship clunker" ever defined?

By the way, I heard the Harry Simeone "Little Drummer Boy" on the local CCM station yesterdday.

 

[salemjedi54]

I have problems with gospel rap. I have to admit that I would not appreciate Gospel music unless Kirk Franklin, Kurt Carr, Hezkiah Walker and Fred Hammond would not have come along. I do love the old school artists like Rev. Clay Evans, Rev. James Cleveland, Pastor Shirley Caesar, Spiritual QC's and Little Johnnie Taylor and the Soul Stirrers.

Bottom line its about preferences.

I listen to Country Legends 98.3 but I'm on the south end of their range, so in some places I hear a station that plays gospel. One day I heard rap. It turned out to be rap about Jesus. they play music that sounds like urban AC radio, and music that sounds like what is sung in black churches. Sometimes there's preaching.

That my friend is Gospel music.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

I would probably agree that a praise and worship song is a clunker, but for different reasons.

Then, if the music is sinful for you - I would encourage you not to listen - EVER. We each have to worship God in our own way, and your way of expressing your love and worship for different than mine.

The thing I would encourage you is - do not be threatened by, nor judge, those who choose to worship differently than yourself. Certainly, the presence of traditional worship services at my church or a church down the road is no threat to me. Neither should a rock and roll service for people like me be any threat at all to you. If a given worship or preaching style is not to your liking, there are plenty of alternatives, go down the street and find one that is. My mother was quite particular on the wording of the profession of faith, and I remember leaving a church to go to one more to her liking as a child. Music is your particular doctrinal item - go where the music is comfortable.

I did find that my 83 year old father was able to go to the very contemporary services at FC Plano, and enjoy them to the point of spiritual enhancement of his life. It was his last church home, and one that deepened his faith. I tolerate the traditional service at my church. The music means little to me, but the preaching is incredible. They have contemporary, but my choice of Sunday school class puts me in the traditional service - darn! I'm only 55, that stuff they sing is really strange to me! But you would enjoy it.

If you take things to the ultimate extreme, you have the Dial the "Truth" web site and their vitriolic tirades on various topics like Bible translations and Christian rock music. I doubt anybody gets saved after visiting that site.

We get to the meat of the problem in these recent posts. Don't know if anyone besides you sees it well. You and I are in the same demo and we both find PW music lacking. We are in the target age group. If old farts like us don't like a lot of it then what does this say? CCM has become the same few cords with sound a like music over and over. "Lukewarm."

In trying to find a contemporary song with only Bible lyrics recently.I found almost no popular songs. Casting Crowns Psalm 113:12 East to West was the exception

My wife is younger and wondered why our oldies station had more musical instrumentation, stereo separation, vibrant vocals, and lyrics. I have to ask the same question. I am sometimes more uplifted by secular music than some of the CCM churn that rolls out these days.

And if it is all about Him why not go to a church with no praise and worship? Our first time at a Catholic church found the music lacking but a more spiritual approach to the services. I also thought a mega church had too much pw but found out they do their hard core teaching in small group classes, using services as a cattle call for people who just need comforting. Ultimately music is not a doctrine and I think you are joking.

If only we could all be like David! Adulterer, Murderer, Humbled before God and apologetic as a man after His heart.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

And if it is all about Him why not go to a church with no praise and worship? Our first time at a Catholic church found the music lacking but a more spiritual approach to the services. I also thought a mega church had too much pw but found out they do their hard core teaching in small group classes, using services as a cattle call for people who just need comforting. Ultimately music is not a doctrine and I think you are joking.

If only we could all be like David! Adulterer, Murderer, Humbled before God and apologetic as a man after His heart.

I think the misconception is that what works for church worship services will work on the radio. The two are completely different settings. Praise and Worship in a church setting has two purposes - (1) worship, (2) preparation for the sermon to follow. While radio can serve the first need, unless a sermon follows it doesn't serve the second. Plus, there is the community - the body of Christ if you will all around you at church, people together of one accord in worship. It is a powerful experience totally lost in the context of a single person listening to radio. We are admonished not to forsake the gathering of saints - for a reason! There are people who can't get out, and that is the purpose of visitation, I am sure the Lord understands the infirm and prisoner cannot attend services.

Now, the radio side of things - it must to an extent entertain, otherwise nobody will listen. It also has to support itself, which means getting funding from somebody - church, listener, advertiser / underwriter. So if a station isn't meeting the needs of the community, it will fail. Some Christian stations rationalize that their teaching and music is Biblically correct, and that is certainly a noble goal. But if their approach doesn't meet the needs of the listener - where is the Holy Spirit's leading? The Holy Spirit is in the business of leading people to Christ through whatever avenue he can. If radio isn't preparing the heart of the unbeliever for receiving salvation, or at least leading believers into deeper faith - then the station is not doing its job. Period. It may make money, it may get the praise of local church leaders, and it may be missing the mark - the harvest of unsaved people in the community. If I were a station owner, I couldn't live with that. I'd do whatever it took to make the station more appealing to unbelievers so they could hear the Truth of God.

I actually had somebody tell me that my daughter ought to be in the traditional hymns Sunday School class. I cannot imagine the rebellion that would spur in her heart if I tried to do that to her. That music is torture to her, she would rather have ice picks in her ears. If I forced that on her, I might as well hand her the drugs and booze right now, and invite her boyfriend to share a warm shower with her, because she will reject church completely if it is forced traditional religion.

 

[vchimpanzee]

I would like to add what happened to me yesterday.

I was under the impression the choir was going to do a traditional hymn for the veterans. Never mind that Veterans Day was two weeks ago. there were so few at choir practice there was going to be a solo, and then it ended up tha the choir snag a medley of patriotic hymns.

So I was at church. One of the young people was going to sing a solo. I should have left right there when I found out. But I had no place to go except home to watch the traditional Presbyterian service on TV. This mess that sounded like Britney Spears started up and I was gone. I could hear that girl singing all the way outside.

That night there was a community Thanksgiving service. An older woman sang "Surely the Presence". That seemed contemporary to me at one time, but it's pretty much sung all the time even where I go. There was a tape but its volume was at a respectable level. And I wouldn't have known the woman even had a microphone, except I could see it. Now the instrumentals were what I would consider contemporary--Doogie Howser keyboard with synthesizers in the background and drums played at a respectable level.

I don't know what you call a Doogie Hoswer keyboard. I just know one was used in the TV series' theme song.

I can't STAND Neil Patrick Harris now! He's the main reason I won't watch "How I Met Your Mother" if Britney Spears isn't on it. She's adorable if she's not singing.

So returning to the topic, does "Surely the Presence" as I described it fit the definition of a Praise and Worship clunker?

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I would like to add what happened to me yesterday.

Bless your heart! You despise contemporary so much and keep getting deluged by it! I think you need to seriously think about changing churches and finding one with traditional music. I doubt our paths would cross in that church, but we are both headed the same place in the end - so please find somewhere that you can worship in truth and spirit, just as I do. After all, it is all about Him, whether you express that love by joyfully rocking as I do, or whether it is through gentle reverence as you do. There is a lot of room in His heart for both of us.

I do have to admonish you on Britney Spears. I know the family - there were medical things going on there that you do NOT know anything about, that have now been treated properly. So please just pray for her if you are burdened about her, those are really good people thrust into a world they were not prepared for, and struggling to adapt to it.

 

[vchimpanzee]

I would like to add what happened to me yesterday.

Bless your heart! You despise contemporary so much and keep getting deluged by it! I think you need to seriously think about changing churches and finding one with traditional music. I doubt our paths would cross in that church, but we are both headed the same place in the end - so please find somewhere that you can worship in truth and spirit, just as I do. After all, it is all about Him, whether you express that love by joyfully rocking as I do, or whether it is through gentle reverence as you do. There is a lot of room in His heart for both of us.

I do have to admonish you on Britney Spears. I know the family - there were medical things going on there that you do NOT know anything about, that have now been treated properly. So please just pray for her if you are burdened about her, those are really good people thrust into a world they were not prepared for, and struggling to adapt to it.

This IS a church with traditional music. That's the point. These kids want to bring this garbage into it and no one says anything. But when the music is chosen by those in charge, it's the real traditional music, or something that sounds reasonably close.

What I said about Britney has nothing to do with her reputation or the tabloids or any medical problems. I'm referring to when she was a sweet innocent teenager with no problems. Not appropriate for church. Unless it's one of those new churches. CCM radio has this sort of thing all the time.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

This IS a church with traditional music. That's the point. These kids want to bring this garbage into it and no one says anything. But when the music is chosen by those in charge, it's the real traditional music, or something that sounds reasonably close.

What I said about Britney has nothing to do with her reputation or the tabloids or any medical problems. I'm referring to when she was a sweet innocent teenager with no problems. Not appropriate for church. Unless it's one of those new churches. CCM radio has this sort of thing all the time.

I hope that they are leaving a traditional music service for you, with absolutely no CCM. And I hope they have a CCM service at a different time for kids that can't stand traditional. My point is that trying to force a particular style on people who don't want it is wrong. There is nothing wrong with the style, but it doesn't minister to everybody - that is why God has different styles of music.

I adore Britney, her sister, and her parents. Her music, though, is not church music. Nor is it CCM.

 

[vchimpanzee]

This IS a church with traditional music. That's the point. These kids want to bring this garbage into it and no one says anything. But when the music is chosen by those in charge, it's the real traditional music, or something that sounds reasonably close.

What I said about Britney has nothing to do with her reputation or the tabloids or any medical problems. I'm referring to when she was a sweet innocent teenager with no problems. Not appropriate for church. Unless it's one of those new churches. CCM radio has this sort of thing all the time.

I hope that they are leaving a traditional music service for you, with absolutely no CCM. And I hope they have a CCM service at a different time for kids that can't stand traditional. My point is that trying to force a particular style on people who don't want it is wrong. There is nothing wrong with the style, but it doesn't minister to everybody - that is why God has different styles of music.

I adore Britney, her sister, and her parents. Her music, though, is not church music. Nor is it CCM.

The contemporary service idea was dropped, but I think it's time to ask what's going on. The problem is, if someone volunteers to sing a solo, with the choir short so many members, the soloist gets to sing. And 9 out of 10 soloists use those tapes. Whether they are CCM or not I don't know. But at that volume they just don't appeal to me one bit.

Britney's musical style, with the right lyrics, could be CCM, right? If done by someone else.

One more thing: the youth did a skit in place of the sermon, making a point about how we have too much "stuff" distracting us from Jesus. One wore an AC/DC t-shirt and I thought that was inappropriate for church until they did a fake commercial for a "Guitar Hero" type game. They did play Bon Jovi's "Living on a Prayer" which I thought was inappropriate for church until I realized it did have the word "prayer" in it. For all I know that could be a Christian song but I imagine it's really no more Christian than Madonna's "Like a Prayer". Anyway, the music in that case lasted a very short time and I don't think it was as loud as those soloists' tapes.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The contemporary service idea was dropped, but I think it's time to ask what's going on. The problem is, if someone volunteers to sing a solo, with the choir short so many members, the soloist gets to sing. And 9 out of 10 soloists use those tapes. Whether they are CCM or not I don't know. But at that volume they just don't appeal to me one bit.

Britney's musical style, with the right lyrics, could be CCM, right? If done by someone else.

One more thing: the youth did a skit in place of the sermon, making a point about how we have too much "stuff" distracting us from Jesus. One wore an AC/DC t-shirt and I thought that was inappropriate for church until they did a fake commercial for a "Guitar Hero" type game. They did play Bon Jovi's "Living on a Prayer" which I thought was inappropriate for church until I realized it did have the word "prayer" in it. For all I know that could be a Christian song but I imagine it's really no more Christian than Madonna's "Like a Prayer". Anyway, the music in that case lasted a very short time and I don't think it was as loud as those soloists' tapes.

Strangely enough, you could be receiving a call from the Holy Spirit to re-vitalize the idea of a contemporary service. If you feel so strongly that this music is harming your worship, and they two styles of worship cannot be reconciled, you should raise your voice as an advocate for two different services. That way, you can preserve the traditional style of worship that is meaningful to you.

You are correct, Britney's musical style could be used as CCM, although I doubt many artists approach her talent. We need to continue praying for her, Christ is the answer she is looking for, and if she could be won back to her faith, what a marvelous witness and talent she could be in CCM!

You have pointed out some very serious problems in the music department of your church. If they are going to do a contemporary service, they need to have better control over it. You are absolutely correct that nobody on the stage in a worship service should be wearing an AC/DC shirt. That would amount to an endorsement of them. I am not familiar with the Bon Jovi song, but I agree that nothing Madonna has recorded would be in the category of Christian music.

I think you are confusing secular top-40 and rock music with CCM. They are not the same thing. All of us in CCM radio, presently or formerly, at least attempt to do some quality control over the content. My standard was pretty simple - a two fold approach:

(1) The song had to be about Jesus Christ, the God of Christianity, or at least a spiritual principle correctly discerned through the words of the song.

(2) The lifestyle of the artist had to bear witness to a Christian, moral lifestyle.

I made mistakes - but as they were pointed out, we would pull music off the air. There was no secular, unless it was a secular artist who was a Christian, and was using the secular top-40 route to mainstream a Christian principle. There are surprisingly many like that, and we had very few complaints. In fact, a lot of Christians are electing to enter the secular marketplace because the Christian music business is permeated with praise and worship advocates at the moment - there is no opportunity for different styles. Just maybe - it is God's plan to bypass Christian radio completely and reach kids a different way. After all, it does appear that Christian radio is bypassing an entire generation - and therefore the largest domestic mission field and opportunity.

 

[vchimpanzee]

You have pointed out some very serious problems in the music department of your church. If they are going to do a contemporary service, they need to have better control over it. You are absolutely correct that nobody on the stage in a worship service should be wearing an AC/DC shirt. That would amount to an endorsement of them. I am not familiar with the Bon Jovi song, but I agree that nothing Madonna has recorded would be in the category of Christian music.

It was the youth, not the music department. Our choir direcotr/organist who helps select the music wouldn't have stood for it. She just puts up with t when that's what the young people want to do. And while this is the sort of thing one might do in a contemporary service, it was the regular 11:00 service. AC/DC and Bon Jovi were examples of what we were supposed to avoid.

I think you are confusing secular top-40 and rock music with CCM. They are not the same thing. All of us in CCM radio, presently or formerly, at least attempt to do some quality control over the content. My standard was pretty simple - a two fold approach:

(1) The song had to be about Jesus Christ, the God of Christianity, or at least a spiritual principle correctly discerned through the words of the song.

(2) The lifestyle of the artist had to bear witness to a Christian, moral lifestyle.

I made mistakes - but as they were pointed out, we would pull music off the air. There was no secular, unless it was a secular artist who was a Christian, and was using the secular top-40 route to mainstream a Christian principle. There are surprisingly many like that, and we had very few complaints.

This is my understanding of CCM. I didn't actually know what Bon Jovi's song was about. But a few years ago he sang about the Holy Ghost, so I thought maybe, just maybe. James Ingram and Michael McDonald had a mainstream hit called "Yah Mo B There" and Los Lonely Boys did "How Far Is Heaven", which I've heard are both considered Christian songs. And Bob Dylan did a song with the words "You Gotta Serve Somebody", though I don't think anyone is accusing him of being a Christian. Come to think of it, there was George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" and Doobie Brothers' "Jesus Is Just Alright".

 

[rbrucecarter5]

This is my understanding of CCM. I didn't actually know what Bon Jovi's song was about. But a few years ago he sang about the Holy Ghost, so I thought maybe, just maybe. James Ingram and Michael McDonald had a mainstream hit called "Yah Mo B There" and Los Lonely Boys did "How Far Is Heaven", which I've heard are both considered Christian songs. And Bob Dylan did a song with the words "You Gotta Serve Somebody", though I don't think anyone is accusing him of being a Christian. Come to think of it, there was George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" and Doobie Brothers' "Jesus Is Just Alright".

Oh - these on line encyclopedias would have made my life much easier in my radio research days! I find nothing about Bon Jovi to differentiate him from 500 other secular rock acts - someone who is very familiar with him would have to convince me he is a Christian and has Christian intent. Without time to research - I would have passed on him for airplay.

Yah Mo B There was the real thing lyrically, but Michael McDonald was a member of the DOOBIE brothers - a doobie is a marijuana cigarette - NOT an auspicious way to introduce him to the world of Christian music. Anybody can get saved, maybe he did - another avenue of research, the burden on the hapless music director (me) - and I probably would have passed on the song rather than do the research.

George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" is an abomination on Christian radio and in a Christian church. It was a thinly veiled attempt to switch Christians to hare krishna. No way I would have played it.

I never played "Jesus is Just All Right" by the Doobie Brothers - for the reason stated above. DC Talk, who are the real thing spiritually, covered the song and I played it. I have some slight reservations about the message, Jesus is not "just all right" with me - he is my all in all. But the total lyrical context makes it pretty clear He is their Lord and Savior.

And those are excellent examples. Other things that never made our cut were things like "My Sweet Lord", and "Spirit in the Sky". Abominations - both. NOT acceptable for airplay. We also pulled Bob Dylan when he started making statements about only being a Christian for 3 years because that is all that Jesus did - what was up with that???? We didn't have to play Sandy Patty after her adultery, because she never fit the format anyway. We pulled some others, though, that had prominent falls. We probably would have restored them to airplay if they repented as publicly as they fell. I never like being in a position of judging, but it is in the job description of a music director at a Christian station. We tried as best we could to be fair AND to be protective of the integrity of the station. As an example of not being judgmental - we chose not to pull Amy Grant after her divorce. We took some heat for that decision, but I stand by it and by Amy. We met her and there were circumstances that we chose not to make public. Gary Chapman's Rolling Stone interview is a matter of public record, gave his side of the story, and speaks volumes by itself about his spiritual condition.