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Part 15 FM Transmitter question...

Why is it that I can go to my local Wal*Mart, and buy an FM Transmitter that will transmit on 87.9 FM (One of a couple frequencies pre-tuned and printed on the case of the transmitter)? Isn't that frequency 'off-limits' for Part 15 use?

Just curious if this junk they import from China is arriving here under the radar of Uncle Charlie... :eek:

I didn't open the box to see if it had a certification sticker on it, but I will next time I get to Wally World.
 
edarmsttrong said:
Why is it that I can go to my local Wal*Mart, and buy an FM Transmitter that will transmit on 87.9 FM (One of a couple frequencies pre-tuned and printed on the case of the transmitter)? Isn't that frequency 'off-limits' for Part 15 use?

Just curious if this junk they import from China is arriving here under the radar of Uncle Charlie... :eek:

I didn't open the box to see if it had a certification sticker on it, but I will next time I get to Wally World.

What transmitter are you talking about?
 
edarmsttrong said:
Why is it that I can go to my local Wal*Mart, and buy an FM Transmitter that will transmit on 87.9 FM (One of a couple frequencies pre-tuned and printed on the case of the transmitter)? Isn't that frequency 'off-limits' for Part 15 use?

Just curious if this junk they import from China is arriving here under the radar of Uncle Charlie... :eek:

I didn't open the box to see if it had a certification sticker on it, but I will next time I get to Wally World.

Not sure is 87.9 is "off limits" to Part 15, but there's a hell of a lot of activity on that frequency.

The other thing being, it's Part 15. Unless someone bought this and advertised themselves as a brand new radio station of some sort, I doubt it's going to be noticed by anyone else but a bona fide radio geek....
 
radioman148 said:
edarmsttrong said:
Why is it that I can go to my local Wal*Mart, and buy an FM Transmitter that will transmit on 87.9 FM (One of a couple frequencies pre-tuned and printed on the case of the transmitter)? Isn't that frequency 'off-limits' for Part 15 use?

Just curious if this junk they import from China is arriving here under the radar of Uncle Charlie... :eek:

I didn't open the box to see if it had a certification sticker on it, but I will next time I get to Wally World.

What transmitter are you talking about?

I am talking about the Scosche FMT4R...here's a link to a page that describes it. Scroll down to the bottom. As you will see, it will even transmit at 87.7 Mhz!
http://sbcradio.us/Accessories.htm :mad:
 
Bongwater said:
I doubt it's going to be noticed by anyone else but a bona fide radio geek....

That's me! ;)

I'm just curious what Rich Fry would think about this blatant disregard for Part 15 rules!
 
edarmsttrong said:
radioman148 said:
edarmsttrong said:
Why is it that I can go to my local Wal*Mart, and buy an FM Transmitter that will transmit on 87.9 FM (One of a couple frequencies pre-tuned and printed on the case of the transmitter)? Isn't that frequency 'off-limits' for Part 15 use?

Just curious if this junk they import from China is arriving here under the radar of Uncle Charlie... :eek:

I didn't open the box to see if it had a certification sticker on it, but I will next time I get to Wally World.

What transmitter are you talking about?



I am talking about the Scosche FMT4R...here's a link to a page that describes it. Scroll down to the bottom. As you will see, it will even transmit at 87.7 Mhz!
http://sbcradio.us/Accessories.htm :mad:

Thanks!
 
Needless to say Part 15 does cover emissions in the 76-88 mhz region. Allowable transmissions are: intermittent control signals, periodic transmissions, and non-residential perimeter protection systems. I am sure someone will try to interpret one of these categories to allow for hobby broadcasting but read the following excerpt from 15.231:

(1) A manually operated transmitter shall employ a switch that will
automatically deactivate the transmitter within not more than 5 seconds
of being released.
(2) A transmitter activated automatically shall cease transmission
within 5 seconds after activation.

A 5 second radio show! But the good news is, maximum allowable signal strength is TWICE what is allowed between 88-108 mhz. Yea! If I were Wal Mart I would be a little nervous having those things on my shelf, at least the ones pretuned to 87.7 mhz.
 
edarmsttrong said:
radioman148 said:
edarmsttrong said:
Why is it that I can go to my local Wal*Mart, and buy an FM Transmitter that will transmit on 87.9 FM (One of a couple frequencies pre-tuned and printed on the case of the transmitter)? Isn't that frequency 'off-limits' for Part 15 use?

Just curious if this junk they import from China is arriving here under the radar of Uncle Charlie... :eek:

I didn't open the box to see if it had a certification sticker on it, but I will next time I get to Wally World.

What transmitter are you talking about?

I am talking about the Scosche FMT4R...here's a link to a page that describes it. Scroll down to the bottom. As you will see, it will even transmit at 87.7 Mhz!
http://sbcradio.us/Accessories.htm :mad:

Well, it's potential is only as good as how many TV stations (analog or digital) transmitting on TV Channel 6. There will be a lot fewer stations on that channel after the changeover on June 12 (barring any more delays).

A lot of pirates use 87.7 and 87.9. There's also Pulse 87 (87.75) in New York (which I'm hearing will remain on after the switchover....)

It will be interesting to see how this all works (?) out. As for this little transmitter and Part 15 radio, I doubt it's going to be much. Most people don't tune that far south on the dial, some radios don't even go that low and 200 feet isn't going to make any radical difference - especially from a moving vehicle.....
 
Bongwater said:
Well, it's potential is only as good as how many TV stations (analog or digital) transmitting on TV Channel 6. There will be a lot fewer stations on that channel after the changeover on June 12 (barring any more delays).

True, but real licensed stations must still protect Channel 6 from interference, according to the FCC Rules.

Bongwater said:
A lot of pirates use 87.7 and 87.9. There's also Pulse 87 (87.75) in New York (which I'm hearing will remain on after the switchover....)
Pretty ballsy for pirates to use those frequencies...Pulse 87 is a Licensed LPTV station. They are allowed to legally use that frequency. It's estimated that 90 percent of FM tuners can tune 87.75 Mhz. It'll be interesting to see what happens after the FCC does away with Analog LPTV after 2015. Looks like they better make as much dough as they can, before the rug gets pulled out from under!

Bongwater said:
It will be interesting to see how this all works (?) out. As for this little transmitter and Part 15 radio, I doubt it's going to be much. Most people don't tune that far south on the dial, some radios don't even go that low and 200 feet isn't going to make any radical difference - especially from a moving vehicle.....

As a licensed user of these frequencies, am I not protected from interference from these devices? Devices which are marketed in this country must comply with the FCC rules, or the seller can be held liable for a HEFTY fine, no matter how low powered it is...right, Rich? C'mon help me out!
 
edarmsttrong said:
Bongwater said:
Well, it's potential is only as good as how many TV stations (analog or digital) transmitting on TV Channel 6. There will be a lot fewer stations on that channel after the changeover on June 12 (barring any more delays).

True, but real licensed stations must still protect Channel 6 from interference, according to the FCC Rules.

Bongwater said:
A lot of pirates use 87.7 and 87.9. There's also Pulse 87 (87.75) in New York (which I'm hearing will remain on after the switchover....)
Pretty ballsy for pirates to use those frequencies...Pulse 87 is a Licensed LPTV station. They are allowed to legally use that frequency. It's estimated that 90 percent of FM tuners can tune 87.75 Mhz. It'll be interesting to see what happens after the FCC does away with Analog LPTV after 2015. Looks like they better make as much dough as they can, before the rug gets pulled out from under!

Bongwater said:
It will be interesting to see how this all works (?) out. As for this little transmitter and Part 15 radio, I doubt it's going to be much. Most people don't tune that far south on the dial, some radios don't even go that low and 200 feet isn't going to make any radical difference - especially from a moving vehicle.....

As a licensed user of these frequencies, am I not protected from interference from these devices? Devices which are marketed in this country must comply with the FCC rules, or the seller can be held liable for a HEFTY fine, no matter how low powered it is...right, Rich? C'mon help me out!

Sorry, not rich. And I don't sell these things.

If it REALLY bites your bum, why not check out the box for any FCC info? I sure any salesperson at Wally World can help you out (Marc?)

On the other paw, it's Wal-Mart. They can get away with anything.

Do you own a Channel 6 TV station? Yeah, I'd be irked too. But anyone with a germ of sense who bought these things would also realize running them on or so close to your aural frequency isn't exactly helping THEM either. You are far more powerful in wattage than them and trying to deliberately jam a local 30,000 watt aural TV signal with a Chinese made 100 mW toy is like doing a gangland drive-by with a plastic water pistol. Even several thousand of these things in one area (which I doubt would be sold, or at least not returned) would be enough to cause any real problem. Most average people would know better. There's also cable TV that most viewers use, which isn't affected at all....

However at distances outside your market ADI, it's fair game.......
 
edarmsttrong said:
Devices which are marketed in this country must comply with the FCC rules, or the seller can be held liable for a HEFTY fine, no matter how low powered it is...

Quoted below is what the Rules show as of now.

So a Part 15 compliant FM transmitter is not permitted by the Rules to use a carrier frequency outside of the 88-108 MHz band.

The amount of radiation just below 88 MHz is limited to 100 microvolts/meter at 3 meters (per 15.209). But if the modulated carrier is centered at 88.1 MHz or above then its content below 88 MHz would consist only of Bessel sidebands. Whether or not that radiation met the limit, it could not be demodulated properly by an FM receiver tuned to a carrier frequency of 87.9 MHz and below.

_____


TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION
CHAPTER I--FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
PART 15--RADIO FREQUENCY DEVICES--Table of Contents

Subpart C--Intentional Radiators

Sec. 15.239 Operation in the band 88-108 MHz.

(a) Emissions from the intentional radiator shall be confined within
a band 200 kHz wide centered on the operating frequency. The 200 kHz
band shall lie wholly within the frequency range of 88-108 MHz.
(b) The field strength of any emissions within the permitted 200 kHz
band shall not exceed 250 microvolts/meter at 3 meters. The emission
limit in this paragraph is based on measurement instrumentation
employing an average detector. The provisions in Sec. 15.35 for limiting
peak emissions apply.
(c) The field strength of any emissions radiated on any frequency
outside of the specified 200 kHz band shall not exceed the general
radiated emission limits in Sec. 15.209.


Note appearing in 15.209(a):

Except as provided in paragraph (g), fundamental emissions from
intentional radiators operating under this section shall not be
located in the frequency bands 54-72 MHz, 76-88 MHz, 174-216 MHz
or 470-806 MHz.


(A fundamental emission includes the modulated carrier and its sidebands.)

//
 
Thanks Rich, I knew I could count on you to lay down the law!

My feeling is that just because Wal*Mart is the biggest retailer in the country, they should not be immune from following the rules. What they are doing, is akin to some CB shop selling a CB radio with 'Extra Channels'. What's worse, is that if you are caught operating this equipment, YOU get the NAL from the FCC.

I am not a Channel 6 licensee, but a broadcast auxiliary licensee. I am limited to power levels that are probably lower than what this device utilizes. So, I deserve protection from interference. I can't tell you how many Sirius/XM satellite radio modulators are in use around my area, but it is a large number. I live in a college town. You would not believe how many times you can hear Howard Stern dropping F-bombs when you drive around my metro area, tuned to 87.9 MHz...
 
edarmsttrong said:
My feeling is that just because Wal*Mart is the biggest retailer in the country, they should not be immune from following the rules. What they are doing, is akin to some CB shop selling a CB radio with 'Extra Channels'. What's worse, is that if you are caught operating this equipment, YOU get the NAL from the FCC.

They appear to be immune from almost every other law, from labor, to zoning to anti-trust to just about anything else they can pay off. This isn't going to mean much to them. They're still the cheapest place around, the BIGGEST volume discounter on the planet and the recession is actually HELPING them.

They are not concerned if you get an NAL anymore than if you bought a gun from their store and went and killed somebody with it. Once it leaves their electronic sliding EXIT doors, it's YOUR problem.

At best, they can voluntarily stop selling these things that operate on those frequencies (which is the more sensible route for everyone.) And I don't think anyone has ever gotten an NAL from running these things either, which I'll explain in a few minutes.

(I must also add that if Wal-Mart stops selling them, they will likely move to another discount retailer who will buy their unsaleable stock and sell them anyway.)

But I must point out to Mr. Fry that there will always be a demand for Part 15 FM xmitters as long as there's Sirius/XM and iPods. And they're all usually made in sweatshops in China, Singapore or Mexico and oversight of US law for excessive radiation and range there (or lack thereof) is what it is.

I'm not saying it's RIGHT to operate on those channels - it's counterproductive at best even to the most dedicated pirates. But like I say, you need to get the FCC info from these units and start asking serious questions to the FCC.

And then the FCC has to get whips cracking, which is going to be tough because even they have had to cut back drastically. They can't even keep up with 95% of the biggest pirate stations out there, to say NOTHING of the MILLIONS of little uncertified Part 15 things on the air as we speak, in spite of what the rules say, they are not on their priority list right now.

Again, I'm not saying it's right, but this is one of the casualties of the recession. It has to be a MEGA-THREAT before the FCC gets serious about it. They don't have the resources to be pro-active anymore. So they end up being reactive and only when MAJOR damage has already been inflicted. F-bombs from somebody's Howard Stern Sirius/XM car radio transmitter doesn't realistically fit the bill as severe enough (But God FORBID any licensed terrestrial station should ever say that on the air. Go figure......)

Part 15 is a genie you can't put back in the bottle either. There's just too many transmitters to deal with (did I say MILLIONS?) and they all run on frequencies/power-range levels that rarely absolutely comply with the rules VERBATIM. And the reality of it is, if you go and make something like running a Part 15 transmitter a crime, guess what? It will go from minor pain in the ass to full blown national epidemic in a heartbeat. And NOBODY at the FCC wants that. They have enough headaches.

Funding for the FCC isn't very high on the government agenda right now, as you can see. And don't forget the "unintentional radiators" from computers, microwave ovens and the like which are often FAR WORSE than "intentional" radiators like Part 15 transmitters - as anyone trying to run a legal Part 15 (or even licensed small town) AM radio station can tell you. If those things never existed, you could probably get a hell of a lot more signal coverage legally. Trust me, the day you see a genuine FCC inspector at a sweatshop in China monitoring each computer or microwave oven that comes off the line for excessive radiation is also the day Baskin-Robbins will open their first franchise in HELL.

But these things do exist. And nothing is going to change that. The sheer cost (and constitutional legality) of testing every single electronic item in the NATION would bankrupt Bill Gates 1,000 times over. The best you can do is discuss your problem with these things you found at Wal-Mart with the FCC (enclose the item if you can and every bit of documentation you have on it.) If you can, organize with other people with the same issue, that helps as well.

And prepare to WAIT. There's got to be a HUGE backlog of complaints for LOTS of other devices......
 
Looks like no one realizes that all this talk of going after retailers like Wal-Mart (or anyone else for that matter) is moot. It's not illegal to sell these things. Only when someone complains after you've plugged it in and turned it on will the FCC even look your way. And even then, it'll be a while 'fore they get a round tuit.
 
rickradio said:
Looks like no one realizes that all this talk of going after retailers like Wal-Mart (or anyone else for that matter) is moot. It's not illegal to sell these things. Only when someone complains after you've plugged it in and turned it on will the FCC even look your way. And even then, it'll be a while 'fore they get a round tuit.

It's not illegal to sell them. Which is my point. And there are millions of these things are on the air and VERY FEW to NONE comply verbatim to the very letter of Part 15 rules, which Mr. Fry insists on - GOOD LUCK trying to get them all off the air.

Like I said, there's millions of these things on the air. And most don't comply to the letter with FCC rules. And the FCC doesn't care or bother as long as no one else is going to do it first. And even then, like you said, it's a process. One complaint is rarely enough, it takes SEVERAL.

I broadcast on a FM frequency used by a Seattle station and have been for several years now. Their signal is mostly unlistenable in Bellingham, WA and my transmitter is probably 500 mW and gets out at least six blocks. And no one cares. There's a pirate here on 98.7 (flanked by a Victoria, BC station on 98.5 and a Seattle station on 98.9) that's been running far longer than I have with at least 20 watts of power to them. Again, no one cares. There are several other pirates in this area as well. Aside from the handful of locally licensed FMs, which all pirates locally stay amply away from, it's just NO BIG DEAL. Even to THEM. Their signals are usually 50,000 - 68,000 watts and penetrate everything. Resistance is futile.

I would never go that high in wattage, but it probably wouldn't make a big deal anyway even if I did. The radio is just not that important in this area compared to others. Radio alternatives have seen to that......
 
Bongwater said:
And there are millions of these things are on the air and VERY FEW to NONE comply verbatim to the very letter of Part 15 rules, which Mr. Fry insists on -

But I don't insist on compliance. As I have posted many times on many boards... whether or not people choose to comply with Part 15 limits is up to them.

Hopefully such choices are made with a good understanding of what constitutes and produces compliance.

That understanding is what I try to provide in my posts.

//
 
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