CUE BURNS AND CARTING RECORDS

[Bob E. Nelson]

Those of us old enough will well recall that certain record labels were prone to cue burning. One that leaps to mind is ``Fool, if You Think it's Over'' by Chris Rhea. Just a couple of spins with back-cues would cut a nasty hiss at the start of the song.

I recall seeing a device that came out in the late 70's that alleviated this problem when carting up a record. As best as I can remember some 30 years later, it was a turnable and ITC cart machine. You'd place the tone arm on the record at a designated point and start it once which would detect the onset of audio and count the number of revolutions. The second take would then fire off the cart machine which would result in a clean pristine recording.

I saw it in action at WWSW in Pittsburgh (then in Allegheny Center) and later at New York's WXLO (still at 1440 Broadway) circa 1979-1980. Was this a custom-made unit or was it marketed by ITC? Does anyone else remember the unit which arrived shortly before the arrival of CDs, thus rendering the need for it moot.

 

[Joe Jock]

Never heard of that, but that sure would have been handy!!

 

[oldiesfan6479]

I'm sure there were a number of stations still playing records
(not on cart) with a big sign in the control room which stated:

"CUE IT ONCE!"

Especially those with marginal record service.

 

[romer979fm]

"CUE IT ONCE!"

should have come attached to every Arista 45 ever pressed!

 

[michael hagerty]

"CUE IT ONCE!"

should have come attached to every Arista 45 ever pressed!

Arista, UA, MCA.....buncha bad vinyl out there. Or was it styrene?

Anyway, whenever I added a record like that, it was a two step process. I'd roll a reel-to-reel machine at 30ips, set the needle down gently and let it play. Then I'd dub the reel to cart.

 

[radiorob2.0]

Henry Engineering sold a device back in the 80's that controlled the turntable and cart machine for dubbing and was small enough you could have a dubbing station in an office.

The cue burn songs with quiet intros that were useless after a few plays include:

"Bridge Over Troubled Water"
"Rock & Roll Lullaby"
"Dancing in the Moonlite"

Also, the quality of records decreased as synthetics were utilized instead of old school vinyl due to cost. I can remember playing The Drifter's "Under The Boardwalk" off original Atlantic vinyl and it was still airable compared to newer recordings that were useless after a few plays.

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

Henry Engineering sold a device back in the 80's that controlled the turntable and cart machine for dubbing and was small enough you could have a dubbing station in an office.

Thanks...that has to be the device. I vaguely remember seeing it marketed in trade magazines of that era.

Also, the quality of records decreased as synthetics were utilized instead of old school vinyl due to cost. I can remember playing The Drifter's "Under The Boardwalk" off original Atlantic vinyl and it was still airable compared to newer recordings that were useless after a few plays.

The one label that seemed to never suffer the cue burn syndrome was RCA, the inventor of the 45. As Mr. Romer cited, Arista was notorious as was United Artists and Bell. To this day, I still think of ``The Letter'' by the ``Box Tops'' as having a scratchy hiss at the outset due to a cue burn under the drum riff.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

Anyway, whenever I added a record like that, it was a two step process. I'd roll a reel-to-reel machine at 30ips, set the needle down gently and let it play. Then I'd dub the reel to cart.

Even though you went down two generations, and the source was a 45,
it was AM radio so you probably couldn't tell on the air, right?

The one label that seemed to never suffer the cue burn syndrome was RCA, the inventor of the 45.

Capitol 45s were also supposed to have been quite resistant to cue burn,
from what I've read over the years. Were both RCA and Capitol pressed
on true vinyl?

I did notice--from playing 45s on my home record player when I was a
"younger poster" (OK, this was long before the internet)--that these two
labels' singles typically had more surface noise in the dead grooves at the
beginning or during a silent passage, even at first play. Columbia 45s,
while generally silent at the top of the disc when new, would burn just like
the various other perps labels previously mentioned.

Johnny Williams' 440 Satisfaction site has an anecdote about cue burn in
the 1960s from Barry Mishkind. You may have to scroll up or down, but
look for "KCUB Tucson" atop the message:

http://www.440int.com/favesk.html#kcub

(The label in question here was A&M.)

And as to the Box Tops' The Letter, while the 45 suffered from cue burn
on many stations back in '67, the one annoying thing about the song now
(coming off of a CD player or more likely a hard drive) is that jocks don't
pot the song up high enough at the beginning and the first couple of notes
get buried under a jingle, liner, talk break, whatever...or the inability of
a station's VT system to ride levels properly. : (Closed circuit for PD Kris
at KOOL-FM--the levels suck during segues while in VT automation mode.)

 

[michael hagerty]

Anyway, whenever I added a record like that, it was a two step process. I'd roll a reel-to-reel machine at 30ips, set the needle down gently and let it play. Then I'd dub the reel to cart.

Even though you went down two generations, and the source was a 45,
it was AM radio so you probably couldn't tell on the air, right?

Oldiesfan:

Even on FM, it would have been fine. Remember, any commercial, promo or station edit was going to have elements that went from vinyl to reel and then to cart. That's all I was doing. Making the dub at 30 ips rather than the standard 7 1/2 insured quality (15 probably would have been fine).

As to cue burn, RCA was good, so was Capitol and so (after 1972) was Warners, which were pressed by Capitol.

As a rule of thumb, thick-edged records burned...thin-edged records didn't.

 

[firepoint525]

"Bridge Over Troubled Water"
"Rock & Roll Lullaby"
"Dancing in the Moonlite"

When I worked at an automated FM station, we had music on reel-to-reel tape at the time, supplied by a music service. "Bridge Over Troubled Water" would inevitably set off the dead-air alarm! I actually took a razor blade and sliced out the too-soft part of the intro so that the song would actually play, rather than being skipped by the automation. The edit didn't sound too bad; at least the song played!

The engineer told me that he could fix it so that it would play (reset the levels), but that then the automation wouldn't even pick up REAL dead air!

 

[gr8oldies]

I've read about how Drake-Chenault processed songs for automation reels. One might have thought that D-C might have had masters from record companies, but no, just records from the album "Promotional Copy-Not for Sale". They would end up doing micro-edits to eliminate pops on the source material.

 

[michael hagerty]

I've read about how Drake-Chenault processed songs for automation reels. One might have thought that D-C might have had masters from record companies, but no, just records from the album "Promotional Copy-Not for Sale". They would end up doing micro-edits to eliminate pops on the source material.

D-C didn't have that kind of clout with record companies.

RKO, when Bill Drake consulted it, did.

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

I recall seeing a device that came out in the late 70's that alleviated this problem when carting up a record. As best as I can remember some 30 years later, it was a turnable and ITC cart machine.

You'd place the tone arm on the record at a designated point and start it once which would detect the onset of audio and count the number of revolutions. The second take would then fire off the cart machine which would result in a clean pristine recording.

I now have the answer to my own question, thanks to a former colleague in Pittsburgh. The device was marketed with the name of ``UpStart''.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

I recall seeing a device that came out in the late 70's that alleviated this problem when carting up a record. As best as I can remember some 30 years later, it was a turnable and ITC cart machine.

You'd place the tone arm on the record at a designated point and start it once which would detect the onset of audio and count the number of revolutions. The second take would then fire off the cart machine which would result in a clean pristine recording.

I now have the answer to my own question, thanks to a former colleague in Pittsburgh. The device was marketed with the name of ``UpStart''.

Now that you have the name, I'm going to send the thread back out again
with this:

How can you place the tone arm at a "designated point" on the record?
Isn't any needle drop a crap shoot as to where it lands in the dead grooves?

 

[Tom Wells]

That sounds like it would work SOME of the time, but how DO you find a designated groove?
Maybe it played and timed the whole song, then went in reverse plus 1/3 a rotation.

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

That sounds like it would work SOME of the time, but how DO you find a designated groove?
Maybe it played and timed the whole song, then went in reverse plus 1/3 a rotation.

Regarding the ``UpStart'' device, I may able to untangle the mystery in a few weeks after I have a chance to meet the fellow who was kind enough to recall the name for me. Presuming he also remembers the details after all of the decades have passed, I'll post them here.

Like I said, I saw it in action exactly one time at WWSW and was in such awe of it working at all that I failed to capture the ``how'' it worked.

Tangentially, another story involving carting a record involved a visit to WLS, still in Chicago's Stone Container Building at the time. It took three people at that union shop to cart ``Taking it to the Streets'', then a current by the Doobie Brothers. As best I remember, there was an AFM member who ran the turntable, a NABET staffer who ran the board and the cart machine and an AFTRA session leader who gave the cue to the two others.

 

[FreddyE1977]

I saw it in action at WWSW in Pittsburgh (then in Allegheny Center)

...and nobody stole it?? ;D

I wonder if it was from the same folks who were selling a Pop and Click Eliminator for your home systems
around that same time? I remember Lynn Hinds and Cathy Milton giving a demo on AM Pittsburgh back
in the 70's. They ran a screwdriver across an L.P. creating a visible scratch and a very nasty pop.
Then whlie the record was still playing they hit the button and - presto - the pop was gone! Amazing!

Never saw one in a store nor heard of it again. I presumed that the record companies must have
bought the patent and buried it, rather than lose repeat sales of records that got scratched.

 

[Tom Wells]

I saw it in action at WWSW in Pittsburgh (then in Allegheny Center)

...and nobody stole it?? ;D

I wonder if it was from the same folks who were selling a Pop and Click Eliminator for your home systems
around that same time? I remember Lynn Hinds and Cathy Milton giving a demo on AM Pittsburgh back
in the 70's. They ran a screwdriver across an L.P. creating a visible scratch and a very nasty pop.
Then whlie the record was still playing they hit the button and - presto - the pop was gone! Amazing!

Never saw one in a store nor heard of it again. I presumed that the record companies must have
bought the patent and buried it, rather than lose repeat sales of records that got scratched.

I built two of these from a kit about 1988, just as the folks who sold it were winding down and planning to go out of business.
They called it an Audio Pulse Swallower. Still have it in the system, but don't use it.
It worked best with a "demonstation scractch" as you described. Real world scratches were a little harder to deal with.
A minor loss of definition, as it could easily mistake sharp transients as clicks and mar the sharpness of cymbals, snare drums, etc.
Sibilants were also subject to marring.
And if a record was poorly pressed and had groove distortion ( or burns) in high-energy sections, it cut into that, because the bad groove had
energy that would fool the detection circuit.
If you had a really well-made record, with no burned grooves, and just light clicks, it is pretty impressive, escpecially for something that works in
real-time.
The declicker in most audio editing software now does a much less intrusive and more effective job.