Sorry about that.
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Stations Taking Their New RF Channel As Their New Virtual Channel
- Thread starter Markxxx
- Start date
Sorry about that.
anotherguyTN
Walk of Fame Participant
You may be right. THey're so weak I can't get them where I live but I had seen them at times on sets in Jackson.
KTTW is an outlier, and I continue to think that what they did wasn't quite according to the rules.
In general, the ATSC standard (which was incorporated into FCC rules and can thus be enforced by the Commission) says that a DTV station is supposed to use its former analog channel number as its "major channel number" in PSIP. So if KTTW was 17 analog, it's supposed to be 17.x digital, and that's supposed to stay the same no matter where the underlying RF channel might move in a repack or a channel share.
There are exceptions that are allowed in the rules. Two stations that are co-owned can use the same major channel number across both stations, regardless of whether they're channel-sharing. KSTP in Minneapolis/St.Paul was analog 5 and has the right to be 5.x digital, and its sister station KSTC, which was analog 45, can also use 5.x (in its case, 5.45, I think) because it's commonly owned. This is the loophole WLIO used - and here's how, because it illustrates another loophole:
Low-power stations don't have to follow the same rules as full power. They follow (at least vaguely) the same rules that new full-power signals would follow if they didn't have an analog channel. So WLIO, which is full power, has a sister low-power station, WOHL. WOHL was analog 25 and *could* have used 25.x. But because it's low-power, it could also choose to use its new digital RF channel, which (at least before the repack) was 35. Except that 35 isn't available to a new station in Lima, because it was WLIO's analog channel and thus is reserved for WLIO's use as 35.x. What do you do when the virtual channel you're supposed to be on is already in use? Choice B becomes the RF channel of that conflicting station, if it's not also a conflict with someone else. Bingo! WOHL can use WLIO's 8 as a virtual channel - and because WOHL and WLIO are sister stations, WLIO can also use 8.x if it wants.
There's actually a very sensible underlying idea here: you don't ever want to create a conflict of virtual channels within a market (or where signals overlap from an adjacent market). WOHL can use 8.x because nobody else in the market can use 8 (and the nearest other full-power virtual 8s are in Indianapolis and Cleveland, far from any overlap).
Which brings us back around to WLXI and KAIL and a few others: because their old analog channels were out of core (61 and 53), there was never any possibility that a new signal would be assigned to those RF channels. They're gone for good. If there's never going to be a new RF 61 in Greensboro/W-S, there's never going to be a situation where a new RF 61 needs a virtual channel and has to use the "43" that it would otherwise use (because that's the RF channel WLXI moved to). So 43 is available there as a virtual channel with no conflict, and the FCC looks the other way at allowing WLXI to use 43.x. KAIL could have been a little more complicated, because in theory there might have been tiny fringe areas where its signal overlapped slightly with the fringes of virtual-7 KGO or KABC. Apparently the FCC didn't see an issue there, or at least looked the other way.
There are some even goofier situations with LPs where the conflicts pile on each other. KAXT-LD in the San Francisco Bay Area is the canonical case - it was on analog 22, where it just squeezed in against full-power KRCB in the North Bay. The two stations' digital signals overlapped, though, so KAXT couldn't use 22.x for its digital signal. It was on RF 42, so the next choice would have been 42.x, but that conflicted with KTNC in Concord, which was analog 42 and digital 42.x. Next choice would have been KTNC's digital RF channel, 14, but that conflicted with KDTV, former analog 14, which already had 14.x. KDTV's digital RF channel was 51, and I guess KAXT could have been 51.x (or 23.x, since KRCB's digital RF channel was 23), but somehow KAXT was able to persuade the FCC to let it use 1.x instead. And so, yes, you can watch Channel 1 in San Francisco now.
In general, the ATSC standard (which was incorporated into FCC rules and can thus be enforced by the Commission) says that a DTV station is supposed to use its former analog channel number as its "major channel number" in PSIP. So if KTTW was 17 analog, it's supposed to be 17.x digital, and that's supposed to stay the same no matter where the underlying RF channel might move in a repack or a channel share.
There are exceptions that are allowed in the rules. Two stations that are co-owned can use the same major channel number across both stations, regardless of whether they're channel-sharing. KSTP in Minneapolis/St.Paul was analog 5 and has the right to be 5.x digital, and its sister station KSTC, which was analog 45, can also use 5.x (in its case, 5.45, I think) because it's commonly owned. This is the loophole WLIO used - and here's how, because it illustrates another loophole:
Low-power stations don't have to follow the same rules as full power. They follow (at least vaguely) the same rules that new full-power signals would follow if they didn't have an analog channel. So WLIO, which is full power, has a sister low-power station, WOHL. WOHL was analog 25 and *could* have used 25.x. But because it's low-power, it could also choose to use its new digital RF channel, which (at least before the repack) was 35. Except that 35 isn't available to a new station in Lima, because it was WLIO's analog channel and thus is reserved for WLIO's use as 35.x. What do you do when the virtual channel you're supposed to be on is already in use? Choice B becomes the RF channel of that conflicting station, if it's not also a conflict with someone else. Bingo! WOHL can use WLIO's 8 as a virtual channel - and because WOHL and WLIO are sister stations, WLIO can also use 8.x if it wants.
There's actually a very sensible underlying idea here: you don't ever want to create a conflict of virtual channels within a market (or where signals overlap from an adjacent market). WOHL can use 8.x because nobody else in the market can use 8 (and the nearest other full-power virtual 8s are in Indianapolis and Cleveland, far from any overlap).
Which brings us back around to WLXI and KAIL and a few others: because their old analog channels were out of core (61 and 53), there was never any possibility that a new signal would be assigned to those RF channels. They're gone for good. If there's never going to be a new RF 61 in Greensboro/W-S, there's never going to be a situation where a new RF 61 needs a virtual channel and has to use the "43" that it would otherwise use (because that's the RF channel WLXI moved to). So 43 is available there as a virtual channel with no conflict, and the FCC looks the other way at allowing WLXI to use 43.x. KAIL could have been a little more complicated, because in theory there might have been tiny fringe areas where its signal overlapped slightly with the fringes of virtual-7 KGO or KABC. Apparently the FCC didn't see an issue there, or at least looked the other way.
There are some even goofier situations with LPs where the conflicts pile on each other. KAXT-LD in the San Francisco Bay Area is the canonical case - it was on analog 22, where it just squeezed in against full-power KRCB in the North Bay. The two stations' digital signals overlapped, though, so KAXT couldn't use 22.x for its digital signal. It was on RF 42, so the next choice would have been 42.x, but that conflicted with KTNC in Concord, which was analog 42 and digital 42.x. Next choice would have been KTNC's digital RF channel, 14, but that conflicted with KDTV, former analog 14, which already had 14.x. KDTV's digital RF channel was 51, and I guess KAXT could have been 51.x (or 23.x, since KRCB's digital RF channel was 23), but somehow KAXT was able to persuade the FCC to let it use 1.x instead. And so, yes, you can watch Channel 1 in San Francisco now.
Mr Tony
Star Participant
They did at one point use 5.45 but it is now 5.2
There are 3 examples of this "mixed PSIP" between 2 co-owned stations
Twin Cities PBS (KTCA 2/34 and KTCI 17/23)(analog number then current RF station)
34 2-1 PBS
23 2-2 Minnesota Channel
23 2-3 TPT Life (the old KTCI 17 with a mix of create shows/reruns of PBS shows and some new shows like BBC News)
34 2-4 PBS Kids
34 2-5 TPT Now (WX maps)
23 2-6 Minnesota Channel
All are in HD except 2-6 which is a SD counterpart of 2-2
Hubbard Broadcasting KSTP (5/35) and KSTC (45/45 moving to 30)
35 5-1 ABC
45 5-2 KSTC Independent
45 5-3 MeTV
45 5-4 AntennaTV
45 5-6 ThisTV
35 5-7 H & I
There has never been a 5-5
FOX O&O KMSP (9/9) and WFTC 29 (29/29)
29 9-1 FOX 9
29 9-2 FOX 9+ (formerly My 29)
29 9-3 Movies!
9 9-4 Buzzr
9 9-5 LightTV
9 9-9 FOX
The reason FOX is on both is because of the VHF assignment for KMSP causes issues for indoor antennas. FOX on RF9 does have more bandwidth given as RF29 has 2 HD stations. The other reason is due to the translators/satellite stations in Northern MN like KFTC 26 Bemidji. It is a satellite of WFTC so FOX can bring FOX & My Network to the translators using one RF station.
Mr Tony
Star Participant
yes it still in on 53 on satellite. Satellite companies honestly dont care what PSIP is. They go by what it was when the station was added (most likely in the analog era)
And in cases of subchannels it can depend. Few examples
-Dish Network when they carry a subchannel the numbering is as such. They try and use the current RF number. If that is taken then they use the former digital number. If there is no option then they make up a number or the owner and Dish agree on a number. As example KEYC in Mankato CBS is on 12 and FOX sub is on 38. KEYC uses RF12 but pre-DTV they were on RF38 so FOX is on 38.
-Directv usually tries and puts subs next to the main station as long as there is no conflict. So KEYC FOX is on 13
-The one that really irks Dish subs is when you are dealing with a short market and an affiliate is added. Dish just replaces the imported affiliate with the new affiliate. As example when Jonesboro, Arkansas went from having just ABC (KAIT) and PBS to having all 4 networks Dish just replaced the Memphis affiliates with J'Boro and those numbers. So CBS is on 3 (WREG's PSIP number), NBC is on 5 (WMC's) and 13 (WHBQ). On Directv its 7 (NBC), 38 (NBC) and 39 (FOX) which matches up with what I wrote above.
Actually KVIQ as we knew it is gone. KVIQ is now a LD on RF 14 with a Virtual of 14.
Channel 17 is now KJRW.. and currently off the air with an STA.
Correct. I did miss that. Eureka is one of the few markets that has no major stations changing their RF as a result of the spectrum auction.
Tiger Cox
Frequent Participant
KAIL 7.1 is still on 53 on both Directv and DISH, on Comcast it's on 713 (13 SD), channel 707 (07 SD) is being used by KGPE CBS 47, makes it confusing for some people, KAIL doesn't put channel 7 on their top of the hour station ID instead they use MY Central Valley.
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