https://www.radioworld.com/show-news/nab-plans-all-digital-fm-demo-in-vegas
Very cool! I look forward to checking it out next month in Vegas.
Very cool! I look forward to checking it out next month in Vegas.
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All Digital FM HD Radio-12 Streams On One Carrier
- Thread starter Kelly A
- Start date
A solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
To be honest - unless you're an insider very few even care about HD radio - in any form.
And you base your honest anecdotal opinion on what?
OK - you tell me of any credible statistic that shows any significant evidence that people are listening to HD radio. Most polls show the average listener doesn't even know what it is. What is it - 15 years in - and nothing to show for it? Virtually all HD channels are rehashes of programming you can get elsewhere. After Ibiquity botched it - it now belongs to - what - it's third owner? Digital radio is floundering in Europe as well. Even with the force feeding of it by governments it's still failing miserably.
There are several, albeit major markets, where ancillary HD streams show in their local market ratings. Here in Washington DC, being just one example. WAMU has a Bluegrass Country format on their HD-2 channel that does pretty well and has a very loyal following.
What "most polls" are you citing? Or is this a poll you took at your local ham radio breakfast?
What "most polls" are you citing? Or is this a poll you took at your local ham radio breakfast?
DaveBayArea
Star Participant
Are there any that actually show up in the ratings without the benefit of an analog translator? I fully admit that I haven't taken the time to research that in every market but I'm not aware of any. I know that WAMU was one of those with an analog translator when it used to make the ratings list.
HD has a serious technical flaw on FM in that it increases the occupied bandwidth of a station from 200 to 400 KHz. Unlike the AM situation, where all-digital broadcasting reduces the bandwidth to the original allocated channel, the FM version actually increases the spectral energy on the adjacent channels by 20 db. See the spectrum plot on page 8 of this document:
http://nrscstandards.org/SG/NRSC-5-C/1026sF.pdf
I have no doubt that it will work in a laboratory environment. But that's also where -20dbc sideband power worked with the original HD radio spec. We all know where that went. This doesn't even address the practical aspect of "what are we going to put on these 12 streams?" Or even 4 if you want them to sound good. This still looks like a solution in search of a problem.
Dave B.
I suspect no matter what reality is - you will spin it in the direction you want it to go. Digital radio by ANY measure you like is a very hard sell. Broadcasters know this, the current owners of HD radio know this, the FCC reluctantly knows this and all of Europe and Asia knows this. But it's a riot to see you insiders step all over yourselves in a vain attempt to promote it. There's no dispute here - if you really want the truth. But you don't. Where I live the only remaining FM with HD is just rehash programming and about a third of the time it's broken. I have to call them up to remind them of the dead air.
tomservo
Walk of Fame Participant
In my market, two stations have added HD capability in the last six months or so. Granted, they're feeding translators just like iHeart does, but the HD works 10x further than any 250 watt translator due to the way things are laid out here. I know if a few non-radio people who do listen to HD specially when they're out of range of translators.
IBiquity was formed by venture capitalists and the major US broadcasters to continue the development started by Lucent and US Digital. It was sold to DTS, the theater sound company, in late 2015 as the VC guys wanted to cash their chips
The digital system used in Europe is DAB, utilizing a separate band. In the US, the idea of a new band was not popular and a backwards-compatible digital and analog system was required.
The European DAB is proving very successful where the government has promoted and subsidized it, such as in England and much of Scandinavia. There are timetables for sunsetting all analog transmissions.
India is building a huge network of all-digital AM, intended to cover the whole nation in multiple languages and they are more than half-way built. Their DRM system avoids analog noise on AM while offering vastly superior coverage than FM.
I'm not spinning anything. Let's recap: I provided a thread which announced, ironically on the HD Radio forum no less, that they would be showing an all-digital FM that could have up to 12 individual streams at this years NAB show. You were the one who made the claim digital radio was (to paraphrase) useless and nobody cared, which in some way could be interpreted that your view aligned with the majority of radio listeners. In the same paragraph, you doubled-down by claiming there are poll(s) that backed up your view. I gave you just one close to home example where your broad statement was incorrect. You in turn, reply with what could be interpreted as sour grapes. So I'll give it another shot; where are these polls?
You sound an awful like Bruce Carter, a regular poster here, who also makes personally-derived anecdotal claims based on experience from their local market like its a snapshot of the entire country.
Hi Dave, Good to see you on again.
WAMU sold that translator a couple years ago. I believe it was sold to EMF. Since then, the only place to get the Bluegrass Country format, is via their webstream or the HD-2 channel.
What you say is true, but I would counter that with FM modulation and modern pre-correction methods in the current batch of transmitters, stations can make their skirts much tighter than can ever be done with AM stations to stay well within the mask. To that point, and as I've personally witnessed in AM HD-only testing, eliminating the analog audio off the AM carrier, also keeps things well within the mask. Problem is, AM stations continue to lose market share. Few seem to have the interest in saving it.
The first thing that came to my mind, was a potential partial solution in crowded major markets, for helping reduce the increasingly crowded FM band. This is especially going to be true with the proliferation of shoed-in translators for AM stations.
Like with the recent TV repack, in theory, say you had one transmission system serving, for the sake of argument, three HD stereo program streams. Now you eliminate two carriers, and the band congestion plus cost overhead one-for-one stations require to maintain.
Andy Travis
Leading Participant
DAB in the UK is successful. 44% of the population utilizing it by some surveys. So, not entirely accurate.
European DAB is not successful at all - just a fact- and most European countries have delayed analogue switch-off indefinitely. This is easy information to find if you aren't beating the digital radio drum like you are. And India has so many issues "a huge network of all-digital AM" is really a stretch. India is not a technology leader. Nice try though. 15 years or so and still not much to show for it. I get a big laugh remembering Bob Struble boasting 15 years ago - "in five years when you buy a radio it will be an all digital radio." You people really need a reality check.
Really? Then please do share the information. Is it a poll?
And those "challenges" are what? That, and you do know that DRM has been around longer than the Ibquity IBOC digital standard? India is just one of the several adopters of DRM.
I guess it depends on what is being shown; most of the new radios being included in new cars come equipped with HD radio capabilities. Since consumer sales of new radios, even analog, are practically nil, radios being delivered in cars are more than what it would be otherwise.
"Most" European countries do not even have DAB. In those that do, and which have adjusted the sunset time for analogue, it is due to the realization that more than half the vehicles on the road don't have DAB and the electronics systems in them can not accommodate DAB modules.
Considering that the shift requires a total replacement of every radio in any particular country, the projections were just too optimistic. In other words, there was politics involved by the government sponsors. But the fact is that DAB is totally successful in those locations.
Where DAB did not work was Canada. Broadcasters did not sense a need, and most broadcasters are private. Consumers, given the generally very good AM and FM signals throughout Canada, did not see any reason for digital. The project failed. The difference was not technology, but market forces.
I see lots of "it's not working" blogs, but no reputable polling data or sales-based information. The nay-sayers ignore the use of HD for real time traffic, as the source for many, many translators and provider of service to many smaller foreign-language speaking groups.
That would explain why such an immense number of the scientists, programmers and managers in the US technology industry are from India.
Check Intel's management team: https://newsroom.intel.com/biographies/executive-management/
The DRM system in India is rolling out fast, mostly with 100 kw and 300 kw Nautel transmitters. See http://www.drm.org/digital-radio-mondiale-drm-digital-radio-for-all-india/ All India Radio goes back to Colonial times and is a well funded and progressive organization.
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Hey - tell you what. Let's get together again in another 10 or 15 years and talk about what didn't happen. It'll be real fun for me. Gotta go now. I want to call the local FM station to let them know HD2 and HD3 are off - again. But this time I'll suggest they just leave it off - no one is listening anyway. Bye, Bye. See you in 10 years.
Do you think the "polls" and "information" he was referring to actually never existed?? How disappointing!
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