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Where available how is AM-HD configured for listeners?...

rbrucecarter5 said:
(1) Corporate lawyers were a constant enemy of KZEW Dallas. A fact they occasionally mentioned on air.
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Joking about the legal department telling a morning show "you can't say that" is almost as common as joking about the general manager and how "he" doesn't get it. Think "WKRP in Cincinnati" type stereotypes that produce funny situations.

(2) Talk and sports are not a good thing when you can receive the exact same program on half a dozen frequencies. Where is localism or diversity in that? How does the sports format - or the talk format for that matter meet the mandate of operating in the public interest?
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First define "public interest". Even the courts and FCC administrative law has not been able to do that consistently.

A sports format provides entertainment and information for sports fans; sports is an important facet of American life. Talk formats obviously appeal to lots of people, or talk would not be among the largest formats in terms of total stations. A compelling argument can be made based on listening alone: if many listeners want that programming, then a station serves a need by providing it.

As to multiple stations in the same format in one area, that's called "competition". Station owners have identified a profitable sector to target, and they will all go after it. If one or more can't make a good return, it will change to another format.

Just asking, because it seems that money and ratings long ago supplanted stations operating in the public interest.
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The FCC used to quantify the amount of news, Public Affairs, Educational and such as the bar that had to be jumped to prove "Public Service". The quit doing than decades ago because it was thought that the number of stations in the country would create market forces that would end up with each viable programming niche being served.

What do you think "public service" is?

Making a profit for somebody does NOT necessarily mean that the station is operating in the public interest. The reverse is true - they might be operating in the public interest - if ratings show they are providing a service people want.
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In any case, for commercial stations making a profit is needed to sustain programming. The FCC understands that it can not compel stations to program material that does not get listened to and which advertisers will not support. I think they gradually saw, during the 70's when FM was rising, that those forced Public Affairs shows and news outside of drive time on music stations was pushing audiences away, not informing them. And they removed many of the requirements.

(3) Foreign language may meet the serving the public interest criteria - but NOT the way it happens locally. Two competing Spanish religious broadcasters snatch frequencies so the other church can't. That doesn't serve the public interest. Once church has what - 100 members tops while the other has about 80 members? Really a "good" use of a dozen frequencies. The only justification - they can afford to do it / they can pay the highest price at frequency auctions. The auctions themselves do not serve the public interest. They only insure that the group with the most money gets the frequency. Which doesn't serve diversity at all.
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Don't compare a local situation with what appears to be a broadcaster who plays a bit loose with the rules on some vastly insignificant signals with the way the full signal, major stations run. Regulation, enforcement and the market forces will eventually clear up those situations, which today seem to be mostly market-specific growing pains of the translator epidemic.

(4) I could call your taste in music bizarre. Or anybody else's taste in music bizarre. Given that we are all unique individuals, I think everybody's taste at one point or another will be bizarre to somebody.
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Having 10,000 songs on your phone is very, very unusual. It makes you what in research we call an "outlier" whose taste can never be satisfied and who are best totally ignored, as doing anything else is dangerous to the health of our station.

I'm not going to address the DX issue any further, as those trying to get over the air distant market stations on any band are very, very few.
 
DavidEduardo said:


Don't compare a local situation with what appears to be a broadcaster who plays a bit loose with the rules on some vastly insignificant signals with the way the full signal, major stations run.
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Bruce does this frequently. The industry extends only to radio stations he listens to and his perception.
 
DavidEduardo said:


Having 10,000 songs on your phone is very, very unusual. It makes you what in research we call an "outlier" whose taste can never be satisfied and who are best totally ignored, as doing anything else is dangerous to the health of our station.
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Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of "playlist". I have 10,000 songs, divided into playlists of different genre's, depending on the mood. It is like changing the radio from a station with one format to a station with a different format. Each playlist has a few hundred songs. Some cross over, like my 60's playlist songs cross over to my oldies playlist songs, etc.

I suspect that most people have at least several hundred to several thousand songs on their phones. Storage space is not an issue, the whole collection takes up less room than one movie.

I agree - DX'ers who want QSL cards are a tiny minority. People listening to distant stations for content not available locally is probably bigger than most people think. From people wanting to hear their old home team after they move to people wanting better music, it probably at least matches the number of people listening to HD - which in most cases requires DX skills anyway.
 
The vast majority of people aren't music geeks or collectors. Add to that if you don't have a copy of Whitburn, there's nothing to suggest several thousand songs.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
People listening to distant stations for content not available locally is probably bigger than most people think. From people wanting to hear their old home team after they move to people wanting better music, it probably at least matches the number of people listening to HD - which in most cases requires DX skills anyway.
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Such listeners are spread among so many out-of-market stations that they are worthless to any of them.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of "playlist".
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You are doubting that a life-long radio programmer does not know what a "playlist" is?

Funny.
 
DavidEduardo said:


You are doubting that a life-long radio programmer does not know what a "playlist" is?

Funny.
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I was being the tiniest bit facetious. In a way - I am programming my own "stations" with music. Each station has a few hundred songs on it - so I freely admit the over the air stations running with a playlist of a few hundred songs are probably doing it right. So 10000 songs does not mean 10000 songs on shuffle. Which really would be a train wreck of a format - for a music player or a radio station. And yet - some of the small "oldies" stations around here do just that. Playlist on shuffle with songs from the 50's through the 90's. That is too wide. The stations I like - over the air that is - concentrate on a 20 year or so window of time, and do it well. Whether that is a sliding oldies / classic hits like KRTH, or "the only classic rock station" - they pick a generation, program to it well, and people seem to listen. Multi-decade playlists might work for soft rock like Delilah, where tempo are more important than decades. I notice the local soft rock plays a little wider time period than a classic rock or classic country.

It is amazing to me how young musical tastes evolve. My daughter plays modern top-40 and country to her daughter. When grandpa and grandma get her - we tried the same music - nope, cries. Hard rock on the classic rock station - nope. Hip-hop - nope. Country - yes. Oldies - yes. Soft rock - puts her to sleep. I am either thoroughly corrupting a 2 year old, or there is an innate musical taste that develops early. 10000 songs allows me to experiment a bit - see what works and what doesn't. I even tried some Spanish language music - 780 comes in pretty well in the daytime. Confused her, but she liked it. Tried classical - no. Smooth jazz - yes. My point - unless radio comes up with hundreds or thousands of frequencies to play all kinds of formats - people that now have choices like streaming, satellite, and music players will continue to defect to the music they like instead of being crammed into generic format boxes. And the staying power of classical should be a hint about the staying power of oldies and other older music formats. In 50 years, maybe hip-hop and today's format will have staying power. Maybe not. But there may be an untapped potential for profitable stations using older music. The local classic rock station sure thinks so - they make a good living with music up to 45 years old. Somebody in younger demographics is finding - and liking - older music.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
But there may be an untapped potential for profitable stations using older music. The local classic rock station sure thinks so - they make a good living with music up to 45 years old.
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As has been discussed many times; it's not that older demographics don't listen to the radio or don't matter. It's just that the 50+ demographic isn't appealing to advertising agencies, who are buying ads in markets like Houston.
 
Kelly A said:
As has been discussed many times; it's not that older demographics don't listen to the radio or don't matter. It's just that the 50+ demographic isn't appealing to advertising agencies, who are buying ads in markets like Houston.
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Yep - one of the last remaining legal forms of discrimination. It is funny the places that advertise to older audiences. There is a network called MeTV that programs oldies - TV oldies. The flood of ads for Depend, walk in tubs, older dating services, etc. is amusing. I may be in that age range, but I don't buy that stuff. Yet. Two other interesting things - they advertise that they are programming to the nation - from Chicago. A not so subtle reference to WLS, I think! And they may be delving into radio, at least streaming. So at least they are thinking in terms of programming to an older demographic. A quick look at my bank account would show I have plenty of spending power, so I am glad somebody is making an effort. Just not buying first alert necklaces and that other stuff for old people yet.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
Yep - one of the last remaining legal forms of discrimination.
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Advertising targeted to consumers who are the most likely to buy your product or service is not discriminatory.

Just look at magazines: each is targeted at specific interests (automobiles, fashion, hunting, etc.) and specific audiences (rural, urban, ethnic) because of the simple need to target. A cosmetics brand is not going to increase sales advertising in Car & Driver and an ammo manufacturer will not see any ROI advertising in Vogue.

In radio, advertisers pick specific age groups to target based on where they get the most return on the money they spend. The large marketers who spend, collectively, billions on research, understand that older radio audiences don't produce good returns.

It is funny the places that advertise to older audiences. There is a network called MeTV that programs oldies - TV oldies. The flood of ads for Depend, walk in tubs, older dating services, etc. is amusing.
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It's not "amusing". It is logical.

The things you see advertised on those senior channels and in publications like the AARP magazine fall, generally, into three categories. One is where a visual image is essential to selling (cruises, pharmaceuticals that show an improved lifestyle, convenience items like wallk-in baths, etc.) Second are those that are mostly specific to seniors (Depends) and third (mostly applying to print) those that require lots of text and disclaimers like mutual funds, annuities, reverse mortgages.

Also, many of those products don't buy local media. Radio is fundamentally local.

Those products buy cheap, low rated cable like MeTV because it delivers a national audience with a single buy, and does not require making literally hundreds of local radio buys, station by station.

Further, many of those ads are "PI" campaigns, where the station or network is paid per inquiry based on responses. They use those to fill in the empty spaces in spot breaks. That is hard to do in radio for more than just a few large markets.

And they may be delving into radio, at least streaming. So at least they are thinking in terms of programming to an older demographic.
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They have a FrankenFM in Chicago, playing older-targeted AC. It does great in over 65 audience. It does not do great in sales. It ranks around 30th in 18-49, and that is about what their sales level is, too.
 
DavidEduardo said:


They have a FrankenFM in Chicago, playing older-targeted AC. It does great in over 65 audience. It does not do great in sales. It ranks around 30th in 18-49, and that is about what their sales level is, too.
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Sounds awful! The few LPFM's doing oldies here don't have a clue how to do the format. They have songs that span the 50's through the 90's and no plan or organization at all. Train wrecks. Somebody's favorite songs on a iPod. Awful. AC slanted oldies on MEradio? That is the type of thing I use to put my granddaughter to sleep.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
Sounds awful! The few LPFM's doing oldies here don't have a clue how to do the format. They have songs that span the 50's through the 90's and no plan or organization at all. Train wrecks. Somebody's favorite songs on a iPod. Awful. AC slanted oldies on MEradio? That is the type of thing I use to put my granddaughter to sleep.
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This, coming from a guy who claims to have 10,000 songs on his IPod or phone. Too much variety!! It's awful! Yeah, right..
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
Sounds awful! The few LPFM's doing oldies here don't have a clue how to do the format. They have songs that span the 50's through the 90's and no plan or organization at all. Train wrecks. Somebody's favorite songs on a iPod. Awful. AC slanted oldies on MEradio? That is the type of thing I use to put my granddaughter to sleep.
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WRME in Chicago is essentially tied with WGN in 12+, and beats WJMK which is one of the two classic hits stations there. It's only 0.4 behind WLS-FM, the other classic hits station. And WRME is a FrankenFM, with lower power and height than the other two.

The playlist is really focused on the 60's (that's not all they play, though), and they are doing a promotion for the Johnny Mathis Christmas show. If you like Lulu and the Fifth Dimension, it's a great station.

Check it out at http://www.goenvisionnetworks.com/service/metv-fm/ (and also read the article about 25-54's by Sean Ross, one of the industry's most perceptive writers at http://www.envisionnetworks.com/2017/11/01/hearing-25-54itis-from-both-sides-now/ ).

The real difference is that the station audience is mostly 55+, so advertisers are not flocking to it and are not paying premium rates. Given the facility, I'd say it was successful.
 
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Kelly A said:
This, coming from a guy who claims to have 10,000 songs on his IPod or phone. Too much variety!! It's awful! Yeah, right..
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Have YOU heard of playlists? I don't shuffle 10000 songs, they are in neat categories with a few hundred songs at most. As I think I explained above. Sometimes I am in the mood for 60s. Other times it might be something completely different. It is like I have "radio stations" on the phone. Get burned out on smooth jazz, I go to the 90's playlist or something else.
 
Kelly A said:
Nope, never heard of a playlist Bruce. Maybe you can explain it to me.

The irony stands; you criticize a CR station for having too much range, yet you claim to have all these songs and genre on your portable device.
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Yeah but what most of us with large music collections do, as Bruce noted, is segregate them out into various playlists to match whatever we want to hear for the day. His criticism of too much "range" in the music at some stations is valid. I don't want to segue from John Denver to The Offspring with some punchy little voice over telling me how clever they are for playing "whatever they want".

Hell, that's the entire problem with that variety hits format as it's executed these days. They're playing what they want, not what we want. What we want is conveniently located on our devices. Or YouTube, or Spotify or whatever streaming app is in vogue these days. (I'm happy to toil in obscurity with AccuRadio's amazing assortment of fun, well programmed channels.)

Turning a station into a glorified iPod shuffle is not the way to build an audience.
 
tomservo said:
Turning a station into a glorified iPod shuffle is not the way to build an audience.
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Funny you should use the term iPod shuffle, because there are many that contribute to some areas here, who believe there are stations who should do exactly that.

Several years ago there was a Sirius channel called Super Shuffle. I used to frequently commute between LAX to one of our stations in Bakersfield. Most of the Hertz rental cars I got had Sirius, so I actually enjoyed listening to Super Shuffle on my trip over the Grapevine. Granted, I wouldn't be able to listen to that channel all the time because of it's schizophrenic transitions, but it was interesting knowing that even on that particular channel, the music was selected through research.

There are still stations that pop up believing a broad playlist can drive TSL with a lot of variety as you're describing. To a certain extent, they experimented with the original Jack format, but once the uniqueness waned, they found themselves tightening-up the list. It seems some markets have the tolerance for stations with more diverse playlists, many don't.
 
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Kelly A said:
Funny you should use the term iPod shuffle, because there are many that contribute to some areas here, who believe there are stations who should do exactly that.

Several years ago there was a Sirius channel called Super Shuffle. I used to frequently commute between LAX to one of our stations in Bakersfield. Most of the Hertz rental cars I got had Sirius, so I actually enjoyed listening to Super Shuffle on my trip over the Grapevine. Granted, I wouldn't be able to listen to that channel all the time because of it's schizophrenic transitions, but it was interesting knowing that even on that particular channel, the music was selected through research.

There are still stations that pop up believing a broad playlist can drive TSL with a lot of variety as you're describing. To a certain extent, they experimented with the original Jack format, but once the uniqueness waned, they found themselves tightening-up the list. It seems some markets have the tolerance for stations with more diverse playlists, many don't.
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Interesting - I didn't know there was such a channel / audience for what could only be described as "eclectic". I wonder what the listen time is of a typical listener in a typical multi-station market. Before they hit the next preset / scan button? I know that when I hear certain overplayed songs, I hit the next preset. I don't even have a good handle on how long I listen to a given station -before (what I believe to be) a clunker comes on. A song I simply don't want to hear, and will make a conscious effort to change the station. 15 minutes? 20 maybe? Besides the "Elvis to Gaga" "oldies" stations here, which are LP and what I would describe as ipod shuffle format. I can guarantee every other song on those is a clunker I never want to hear again. But a carefully researched, targeted format. I can tolerate the local classic rocker for sometimes 15 or 20 minutes, until they get mired in a set of bad 80's or something. The only real eclectic format is on an HD-3 of our local NPR. I can go maybe 10 or 15 minutes before there is a song that I just can't stand. But is my experience typical - and do stations plan for it? I think a lot of people are wise to the 8 or 9 minute commercial breaks and tune those out. But is anybody so seriously in love with a station that they tune it, only it, never switching the channel? Or is it the plan all along that people tune back and forth looking for the best song?
 
Glad to know I'm not the only one who is wary of all the 80's songs invading the classic rock format on radio. I know it has to evolve with the tastes of listeners, but for a guy my age, "classic rock" is now and will forever be 67-79 or thereabouts with little outside that era. That's why I rage with fire when the local classic rock station plays a good set of 70's rock, only to work in "Sweet Child O Mine" or "November Rain" and wreck the vibe. Of course, my own personal white hot hatred of all things GNR doesn't help!

By the way, the surefire cue that a commercial break is about to start on your local megacorp radio station? The jock is allowed to talk for more than a few seconds. Never fails. I hear jock banter that exceeds about 10 seconds, it's followed up by what seems like an eternity of commercials. That's MY cue to flip stations. Aout the only station whose commercial breaks I'll (occasionally) sit through is the locally owned and operated little class A at the beach (WCSN). Probably 90% of their commercials are locally produced in house or in the area. And they're always a lot easier on the ears and less annoying that the national/regional spots that iHeartCumuless foist on their stations, with their shouty car dealers and hip lawyers and other horse squeeze.
 
tomservo said:
Glad to know I'm not the only one who is wary of all the 80's songs invading the classic rock format on radio. I know it has to evolve with the tastes of listeners, but for a guy my age, "classic rock" is now and will forever be 67-79 or thereabouts with little outside that era. That's why I rage with fire when the local classic rock station plays a good set of 70's rock, only to work in "Sweet Child O Mine" or "November Rain" and wreck the vibe. Of course, my own personal white hot hatred of all things GNR doesn't help!
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There is some great stuff in the 80's. There is also a lot of garbage - I think most of it fueled by the novelty of music videos at the time. A mediocre, even bad group could produce an awesome video and presto - they were the new hottest thing! It fueled a lot of so-so rock groups to super-stardom. I was caught up in it, too, at the time. MTV arranged to simulcast on rock stations, because TV wasn't in stereo. MTS stereo TV was just beginning to be adopted and very few sets had it. I think everybody remembered the AM to FM stereo revolution of a decade earlier, and rushed in head first - not realizing that this time it was different. But it was a fad. MTV is not even playing videos any more. What we were left with was a decade of novelty acts who had great videos and bad music. Add that bad music to a classic hits / oldies format and you have a train wreck. Program a classic rock station with mainly 80's and you are bound to pick up loads of clunkers if you aren't really careful. Done right, you have the last decade of rock before rap and hip-hop took over top-40. I can see a classic rock station doing 60's through 80's, but they would have to be careful of the 80's. I just don't think 50's and 60's Elvis and Beatles fans are going to flock to a station dropping 50's and 60's as it tries to "grow up" into the 80's. Probably won't happen. Maybe the reason why the format is dying. There is a reason why Beatles box sets are hundreds of dollars. It is just darn good music compared to some clod with a video mixer in the 80's.

Just my humble opinions ----- I am sure other people think everything in the 80's is golden era stuff.
 
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