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Diversity reception for HD radio - or marketing BS?

R

rbrucecarter5

Guest
https://media.ford.com/content/ford...usion-and-escape-dual-fm-radio-receivers.html

It sounded like a scholarly article. Until I read further.

First problem I have with it are the statements about receiving two stations at once. The capture ratio of FM radios precludes that. The closest I have ever come is with a Delco that had an early ceramic filter in the FM IF, and allowed two frequencies - not two stations - to come in at once. Assuming that they mean a rapid switching between two weak stations - it is either all one, or all the other. In those circumstances, HD reception would be impossible anyway - due to the long lock times.

Where they really lost me was their example of a drive from Chicago to Detroit, and how a Chicago station would swap with a Detroit on the same frequency. I used to live in Jackson, Michigan - this example is total, complete fabrication! There is not a single Chicago or Detroit station that has the range to swap with its counterpart. The FM band is so packed, it would be impossible for this scenario to unfold.

There is a real world example of stations rapidly switching. A trip to Austin, TX and anywhere 40 to 50 miles NE of there, you have Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio stations fighting it out. A good example is 101.1. You would think that KONO would dominate in North Auston, but it is actually WRR, with frequent intrusions from KLOL. Classical to oldies to Spanish language - now THAT is enough to be annoying to anybody! If diversity receivers could alleviate the problem somewhat, they might have something. But I doubt it. It might stop the quickest transitions, but most of them are hundreds of yards and many seconds wide, not the width of a car.
 
Diversity tuners for VHF were used for reduction of multipath effects or to receive the most robust reflection, not for increasing range. As with any diversity setup, it measures s/n and selects the tuner with the lowest noise floor.

If you're talking about diversity for HD tuners, I'm unclear as your point. Generally diversity doesn't work well for broad digitally modulated carriers, because there is no easy way to measure noise floor.

Back in the early 80's Bob Carver and Larry Schotz came up with one the original aftermarket FM stereo car tuners. In the lab the performance was pretty good, as was improved reception in terrain-challenged areas like the San Francisco Bay Area. Problem was, the improvement in performance wasn't that noticeable to the average consumer. Certainly not with the higher price.

Auto manufacturers have been trying to hide antennas by making them smaller, not add more. Also remember that from a manufacturer perspective, radio reception improvements is so 1990's. As you can see by the modern spots on TV, connected apps and WiFi hot spots are in for modern cars. Oh, there's a way to listen to radio too? How quaint!
 
https://media.ford.com/content/ford...usion-and-escape-dual-fm-radio-receivers.html
The capture ratio of FM radios precludes that.
Actually the capture effect would preclude this, but the term ratio is there to remind us that the effect depends on the quality of the tuner, and by the way, capturing only exists at full quieting signal levels.
At any rate, we are not talking about FM, we are talking about digital.

Generally diversity doesn't work well for broad digitally modulated carriers, because there is no easy way to measure noise floor.
Comparing noise floors is twentieth century technology, the twenty-first century way is to use bit parity and recover the most perfect bit stream. All satellite radio receivers compare the same audio received up to five different ways and produce an uninterrupted audio stream. Delayed and undelayed streams from each of two satellites plus a terrestrial repeater allow combinations of time diversity, frequency diversity, and spacial diversity to produce uninterrupted audio streams although any or all of them could individually be dropping out a lot. Of course an HD radio station cannot transmit the same stream five times, but two receivers, each connected to a different antenna in a moving vehicle can do a lot to reduce dropouts.

BTW...unless something has changed of which I am unaware, the radio does not use the defrosting, heating element. Separate lands are imbedded within the glass for defrosting and the radio antenna and they never touch each other.
 
https://media.ford.com/content/ford...usion-and-escape-dual-fm-radio-receivers.html

Of course an HD radio station cannot transmit the same stream five times, but two receivers, each connected to a different antenna in a moving vehicle can do a lot to reduce dropouts.

BTW...unless something has changed of which I am unaware, the radio does not use the defrosting, heating element. Separate lands are imbedded within the glass for defrosting and the radio antenna and they never touch each other.

HD radio doesn't have the bandwidth to allow for Forward Error Correction, so there isn't any way to send packets multiple times to allow for digital diversity reception.

I agree that most cars no longer use the window defroster as an antenna. Most use one either embedded in the windshield or a shark fin antenna.
 
HD radio doesn't have the bandwidth to allow for Forward Error Correction, so there isn't any way to send packets multiple times to allow for digital diversity reception.

I agree that most cars no longer use the window defroster as an antenna. Most use one either embedded in the windshield or a shark fin antenna.
Does HD Radio allow for diversity to be used as an analog backup?
 
Does HD Radio allow for diversity to be used as an analog backup?
Spacial diversity reception is a product of the receiver's design, not the HD system.
As far as analogue goes, my main interest in HD radio is the multicasting potential...
more is better (but not too much more within a limited bandwidth).
 
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HD radio doesn't have the bandwidth to allow for Forward Error Correction, so there isn't any way to send packets multiple times to allow for digital diversity reception.

I agree that most cars no longer use the window defroster as an antenna. Most use one either embedded in the windshield or a shark fin antenna.

Sad to see the shark fin propagate into popularity! I always thought that the rear windshield was the most elegant solution and the most aerodynamic (and aesthetic!!!) compared to the whip and the shark. The (buggy) whip is almost gone (except in cheap, basic economy cars).

The OEM stock radio in my dad's '06 Camry suddenly died without explanation about a year-and-a-half ago and had it replaced with an aftermarket HD tuner. The windshield antenna turns out to be very directional, probably due to the digital nature of IBOC or the low wattage of the digital subcarrier.
 
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Sad to see the shark fin propagate into popularity! I always thought that the rear windshield was the most elegant solution and the most aerodynamic (and aesthetic!!!) compared to the whip and the shark. The (buggy) whip is almost gone (except in cheap, basic economy cars).

The OEM stock radio in my dad's '06 Camry suddenly died without explanation about a year-and-a-half ago and had it replaced with an aftermarket HD tuner. The windshield antenna turns out to be very directional, probably due to the digital nature of IBOC or the low wattage of the digital subcarrier.

Is there any difference in performance (sensitivity) among the whip, the fin and the embedded windshield antennas?
 
Is there any difference in performance (sensitivity) among the whip, the fin and the embedded windshield antennas?

The whip is technically the best, followed by the embedded windshield and the fin. It has to do with matching the length of the antenna with the wavelength of the signal being broadcasted.

My mom's 2013 Kia Soul has a mini whip that screws into the fin. I believe that the fin is for Sirius (that we don't subscribe to) and the mini whip is for the terrestrial signals. It seems to work fine for the HD tuner.
 
The whip is technically the best, followed by the embedded windshield and the fin. It has to do with matching the length of the antenna with the wavelength of the signal being broadcasted.

My mom's 2013 Kia Soul has a mini whip that screws into the fin. I believe that the fin is for Sirius (that we don't subscribe to) and the mini whip is for the terrestrial signals. It seems to work fine for the HD tuner.

That's what I figured. I have a 2008 VW Jetta with a shark fin and I find its performance well short of the whip my old '02 Saturn L200 had.
 
It is actually possible to design a shortened antenna and preamp that can receive as well as the old 1/4 wave whips, given the intrinsic noise levels present in today's cars to begin with. But whether the manufacturers actually take the time to do so is another story. Sounds like Ford is at least trying. Also, if you think about it, space diversity will work exactly the same way for HD as it did for FM. Nissan and Toyota had some seriously fantastic radios back in the '80s (made by Clarion - I still have one that I saved out of a wrecked car) that had dual antenna inputs. Blaupunkt made an after-market one as well. You know how a weak station will fade at a stoplight when you sit in a null, then get better when you move maybe 6 inches? The diversity radio takes care of that by switching to the other antenna. Short answer, it works and it definitely improves range by making weak stations listenable.

The claim of Detroit and Chicago does sound a bit far-fetched, although there is a big lake over part of the path. I suspect it is possible somewhere, and certainly possible if there is some tropo enhancement. What I find ironic is the fact that DSP tuners and diversity would allow reception of far-away 1st adjacent stations if it weren't for the HD carriers on the adjacent channels of local stations.

Dave B.
 
It is actually possible to design a shortened antenna and preamp that can receive as well as the old 1/4 wave whips, given the intrinsic noise levels present in today's cars to begin with. But whether the manufacturers actually take the time to do so is another story. Sounds like Ford is at least trying. Also, if you think about it, space diversity will work exactly the same way for HD as it did for FM. Nissan and Toyota had some seriously fantastic radios back in the '80s (made by Clarion - I still have one that I saved out of a wrecked car) that had dual antenna inputs. Blaupunkt made an after-market one as well. You know how a weak station will fade at a stoplight when you sit in a null, then get better when you move maybe 6 inches? The diversity radio takes care of that by switching to the other antenna. Short answer, it works and it definitely improves range by making weak stations listenable.

The claim of Detroit and Chicago does sound a bit far-fetched, although there is a big lake over part of the path. I suspect it is possible somewhere, and certainly possible if there is some tropo enhancement. What I find ironic is the fact that DSP tuners and diversity would allow reception of far-away 1st adjacent stations if it weren't for the HD carriers on the adjacent channels of local stations.

Dave B.

Nope - I call BS on the Detroit / Chicago thing. I lived in Jackson, Michigan for 3 years, traveled all over the Southern part of the state with a Pioneer Supertuner 3 in the dash, 31 inch whip. Kalamazoo is about midway between Detroit and Chicago. Detroit stations had long since faded by then, and no Chicago would come in yet. Even on the West side of the state, Chicago stations were very weak. I was extremely disappointed - based on the reception I was used to in Texas, I thought Chicago stations would be easily receivable even in Jackson, given the height of their transmitters, etc. The situation in lower Michigan, too, is one of station glut. I had signals on probably 80 out of 100 frequencies, the vast majority of which were nearby. The furthest regulars were a Grand Rapids station that had super power grandfathered in, and a Toledo station or two. Detroit stations were in bad shape by Jackson, with deep fades as I drove around town. About the best was a Windsor station on 88.7 that I think had a bit more power. There was seldom, if ever tropo. In the entire 3 year period, I did not log a single Chicago station from Jackson. Just not possible. So there is a report from a very experienced FM DX'er with the right equipment. That Detroit / Chicago scenario? Not possible. Myth - BUSTED!
 
That Detroit / Chicago scenario? Not possible. Myth - BUSTED!

That makes sense. I know Chicago FM's are fairly low power. WFMT used to be grandfathered with about 15 KW I think. But it looks like they moved & are now down to 6 kw. That's all the power you get with a class B at some serious height. Nothing like those 100KW monsters you have in Texas. I suspect Detroit is the same way.

Dave B.
 
That makes sense. I know Chicago FM's are fairly low power. WFMT used to be grandfathered with about 15 KW I think. But it looks like they moved & are now down to 6 kw. That's all the power you get with a class B at some serious height. Nothing like those 100KW monsters you have in Texas. I suspect Detroit is the same way.

Dave B.

I tried to cut and paste the output from fmfool.com, but it didn't work. I ran it for both Jackson, MI, and Kalamazoo. Chicago is completely covered up in both with closer stations. Detroit is almost covered up in Kalamazoo. Very dense population = re-use of channels. And it appears to have gotten even worse since I lived there in the late 80's.
 
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