Tork: Monkees Songbook Third Greatest After Beatles & Stones - discuss

In an article on Salon.com, Peter Tork stated that the Monkees' songbook was perhaps the third greatest, after the Beatles and the Rolling Stones. I'd say Tork can be forgiven for feeling that way, but otherwise, I think the claim is laughable.

Just off the top of my head, I would consider The Doors, Creedence Clearwater, The Who, the Beach Boys, Jefferson Airplane, the Byrds, Buffalo Springfield/CSNY, and the Kinks to have written and performed a much better, and more important 'songbook' than the Monkees. And that's if you're limiting the list to just groups - otherwise you'd certainly have to include Bob Dylan, Ray Charles, and Aretha Franklin; among others. If you can include the 70s, there's Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, the Grateful Dead,and more.

Other opinions?

I want some of what Tork is smoking.

The Monkees' songbook is full of material by some of pop's most respected songwriters. Yes, they recorded their share of fluff -- the theme and many of the songs Davy Jones sang lead on -- but there was some genuine pop gold among their hits. "I'm a Believer" was by Neil Diamond. "Daydream Believer" was by John Prine, for goodness' sake. And don't forget the non-singles written by member Mike Nesmith, the one true musical talent in the group. Especially in their last two albums, they were stretching into territory that the Archies, Josie and the Pussycats and other made-up bands would never have been allowed to.

That said, calling that bunch of tunes superior to all but the Beatles' and Stones' songbooks is just silly. I'd rank them below all the groups Landtuna mentioned -- although the Monkees at their silliest were more listenable than the Airplane or the Doors at their most pretentious, IMO -- and above the likes of Gary Lewis & the Playboys, Herman's Hermits and Sam the Sham & the Pharaohs. Who would be at about the same level? Hmmmm, the Dave Clark Five, perhaps? The Box Tops?

DavidEduardo said:

Plus you have to consider international impact. The Monkees were minor, at most, stars outside North America. Nearly no impact in Asia and Latin America, where CCR, Beatles, Stones, Doors, etc. were huge. Same for other world markets where American / English language music was popular. It is as if their fame was based on being on TV, and the show did not make it in most of the rest of the world.

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Ahem. "I'm a Believer" was a No. 1 hit in US, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Germany, Ireland, Netherlands, Norway and UK. Four of their other singles had considerable success in all those countries as well. They traveled very well to a decent part of Europe, including four countries in which English is not the official language.

No, their music wasn't groundbreaking, game-changing stuff like those artists already mentioned. It was just very good, well-crafted pop music written by some of the best pop songwriters of the day, like Neil Diamond, Boyce and Hart, and Carole King. At the end of the day, ain't nothin' wrong with that.

DavidEduardo said:

But in the places in Asia and Latin America where English language music was (and is) big, no impact. And, similarly, in the countries where romance languages are spoken in Europe, little impact. In that sense, not much different than the 1910 Fruitgum Company or The Archies.

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Maybe they just had much better musical taste than the likes of those bubblegum "bands."

DavidEduardo said:

But in the places in Asia and Latin America where English language music was (and is) big, no impact. And, similarly, in the countries where romance languages are spoken in Europe, little impact. In that sense, not much different than the 1910 Fruitgum Company or The Archies.

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You wrote "The Monkees were minor, at most, stars outside North America. Nearly no impact in Asia and Latin America, where CCR, Beatles, Stones, Doors, etc. were huge. Same for other world markets where American / English language music was popular."

They were big in three major world markets: the UK, Germany and Australia. American music was popular in all three. Just because the rhythm-obsessed listeners of Latin America and listeners in Asia, where the indigenous musical styles are drastically dissimilar to American styles, didn't hear their records on the radio doesn't erase from significance the major success the group had in the countries mentioned in this and the original post.

Come to think of it, the United Kingdom still had vestiges of an empire in 1968. Do you know if radio listeners in Singapore, Hong Kong, Barbados, British Guiana, etc. were exposed to the Monkees and the other American acts that were so big in the UK?

Along the lines of what David Eduardo has noted, when I travelled in France in 2010, I was surprised to note that the playlist on their Oldies/Classic Hits station ("Nostalgie") was almost entirely English language hits from the 60s and 70s - very heavy on the Beach Boys, for some unknown reason. They'd occasionally throw in a French language oldie, but it was maybe 1 out 6 or 7 songs. I don't recall if I heard any Monkees' hits.

On another note - the films A Hard Day's Night and Help! were reportedly the inspiration for The Monkees, and I do recall that many of the song montages on the show were copied in form from those 2 Beatles films. Bob Rafelson was the producer of the show, and directed many of the episodes. He later went on to a distinguishing career - directing such films as Easy Rider, Five Easy Pieces, and The Last Picture Show. Actor/Director Paul Mazursky was also involved in The Monkees, and went on to write and or direct An Unmarried Woman, Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice, Harry and Tonto, and other great films of the 70s.

Keep in mind that as a TV show, The Monkees only lasted two seasons, and that had to blunt any impact the group had on pop music

landtuna said:

I'm not sure how one can compare the music of The Monkees with any other genuine/serious pop/rock band? The Monkees TV show was basically a parody of pop/rock groups in general but the Beatles/Stones variety specifically and done in a Benny Hill manner. The TV show was entertaining, for those who liked that sort of irreverent comedy and the music pretty much fit the TV show theme. It was music for people that didn't take music too seriously although they did manage a couple of tracks that fit the times along the way. And they had some serious writing talent behind the music.

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The show may have been wacky but the music videos were serious and I've heard they even influenced MTV.

landtuna said:

They might have but it would have been a long distance relationship. The Monkees TV show was off the air by Fall 1968 whereas MTV didn't launch until August of 1981 (also known as "The Day The Music Began To Die").

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There were MTV style music videos in the late 60s and early 70s, though they weren't as commonplace as in the 80s. For those who are too young to remember -not Landtuna : ) - major cities had local afternoon or weekend dance-party shows, of the American Bandstand type, usually hosted by a DJ from local Top 40 AM radio. Los Angeles had quite a few, including Shebang! hosted by Casey Kasem, and Boss City on Saturday evening. On these shows, the current hits of the day were played while the teens danced, and occasionally some band would be in town, and come on the show to lip-sync their song. But another way to get the songs out there was early music videos. I remember seeing one for Tommy Roe's Dizzy on the afternoon dance-party show Groovy! hosted by Robert W. Morgan. It was pretty cheesy, with low-rent kaleidoscope spinning video-effects ("Dizzy" - get it?) - definitely not the high-production quality of music vids from the MTV era. But it was a music video, none the less.

LKellerIII said:

There were MTV style music videos in the late 60s and early 70s, though they weren't as commonplace as in the 80s. For those who are too young to remember -not Landtuna : ) - major cities had local afternoon or weekend dance-party shows, of the American Bandstand type, usually hosted by a DJ from local Top 40 AM radio. Los Angeles had quite a few, including Shebang! hosted by Casey Kasem, and Boss City on Saturday evening. On these shows, the current hits of the day were played while the teens danced, and occasionally some band would be in town, and come on the show to lip-sync their song. But another way to get the songs out there was early music videos. I remember seeing one for Tommy Roe's Dizzy on the afternoon dance-party show Groovy! hosted by Robert W. Morgan. It was pretty cheesy, with low-rent kaleidoscope spinning video-effects ("Dizzy" - get it?) - definitely not the high-production quality of music vids from the MTV era. But it was a music video, none the less.

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The Beatles had one that introduced "Strawberry Fields Forever" and "Penny Lane" on The Ed Sullivan Show.