the Alternative genre seems to forget its heritage

Alternative really isn't a musical genre. It's a radio format. It's a label -- and a flexible one at that. It's also a convenient term used by some music fans to describe their favorite music so they can appear stylish. And it fools lots of people.

I remember when the top three or four selling artists in the U.S. (during the mid 1990's) -- we're talking millions of albums, millions of fans, albums entering the Billboard charts at number one -- these artists were still considered "Alternative" by the radio industry. "Alternative" acts -- after three or four number one albums. "Alternative" to what?

I remember asking one of the radio programmers I knew at that time "how can these acts be considered 'alternative' when they are the biggest acts in the country, and their style of music is actually more mainstream than "mainstream rock"?

The answer I got was, well, 'just because'.

It's just a label. A convenient label.

boombox4 said:

It's just a label. A convenient label.

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I was agreeing with you up until you typed "convenient". Labels are very convenient when they mean something. If they don't mean anything, then there are an inconvenient source of confusion. All of the points you make, which I happen to agree with, further demonstrate how totally inconvenient the label is.

And for the record, "alternative" did, at one time, have a meaning of its own among musicians. But it became blurred and went away.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but the alternative message board is practically a ghost town these days. Sadly, this seems to be what alternative rock evolved into. So many pioneering alternative stations like 99X and Y100 died in the mid-2000s and the "alternative" stations that remain have resorted to overplayed active rock hits from the 90s. I checked the playlist from Live 105 and KROQ, arguably the pioneering stations of alternative radio, and 80% of their playlists from the last few hours were hits from the 90s and early 2000s. The artists are out there and the fans are still around but alternative as a radio format is on its last leg.

louisparker said:

The artists are out there and the fans are still around but alternative as a radio format is on its last leg.

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This is mainly a music problem, not a radio problem. Once the music finds its direction and audience, radio airplay will return.

Until then, the real focus has moved to other genres.

FWIW, the "Alternative" commercial station in Seattle, KNDD The End, seems to play mostly newer alternative rock music. And it was around during the early 90's, so it's possible that one could call it a 'pioneer', although I think KROQ predates it by a few years....

As BigA mentions, the state of rock music today (and alternative rock and pop music) seems to be pretty fragmented.

Despite this thread already being several years old, I still have some questions involving the Modern Rock format. In particular, why was it that during the late 90's, programmers decided to mess with gender diversity and attempt to compete with Active Rock formats. Did they just feel that female listeners were better served by AAA and Modern AC formats, so they doubled down on Limp Bizkit, Godsmack and the other hyper-aggressive nu-metal bands? This is just really puzzling to me. For instance, I even read an article in Billboard about how back in 2000, WLIR/ Long Island, a heritage Modern Rocker, was getting flack for playing lots of electronic music, while only giving limited airplay to the Nu-Metal/ Post-Grunge music popular at the time.

However, prior to Grunge, or even during the height of the Mid-90's Alternative Nation, the Modern Rock format was much different. While Grunge certainly get its share of airplay, other genres also got in on the action. For instance, artists as diverse as Ned's Atomic Dustbin, Nine Inch Nails, Jewel and even Enya all got airplay on Modern Rock radio. In the case of Enya, she had more success on the Modern Rock format, then on the AC formats most would now associate her music with. Her success on the AC format didn't come until after the overexposure of "Only Time" post-9/11. In other words, being soft doesn't always mean you'll get airplay on AC radio. This is especially true if your music sounds nothing like the Bolton-Houston-Peter Cetera formula AC was well-known for in the 90's. However, Modern Rock stations didn't care. If the music was unique, they would play it. Modern Rock radio literally played anything: Single-Songwriter based pop, Synth-pop, Grunge, Hip-Hop, Power-Pop, Ethereal music; the list goes on.

I'm just wondering if there was a reason to for attempting to target more male-listeners? Both 99x Atlanta and Live 105 San Francisco attempted to do that, with disastrous results once the nu-metal fad died out in 2002.

gamefreak said:

I'm just wondering if there was a reason to for attempting to target more male-listeners? Both 99x Atlanta and Live 105 San Francisco attempted to do that, with disastrous results once the nu-metal fad died out in 2002.

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Perhaps because Nu-Metal was new at the time, and the attitude matched that expressed with many alternative acts of the time. Also, MTV had Nu-Metal bands in heavy rotation during that period, and I think MTV held some influence over Modern Rock at the time.

boombox4 said:

I think MTV held some influence over Modern Rock at the time.

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Certainly more so than it does now

boombox4 said:

Perhaps because Nu-Metal was new at the time, and the attitude matched that expressed with many alternative acts of the time. Also, MTV had Nu-Metal bands in heavy rotation during that period, and I think MTV held some influence over Modern Rock at the time.

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Nu-Metal is going to become less of an outlier and more of a reckoning if those damn songs start testing good.

And the reckoning is this: How do you explain away a blatantly misogynistic song like "Nookie" in the #MeToo era?

And I can think of other lyrically similar examples galore that got airplay-sometimes in heavy rotation.

Let's face it, most of what passed for Alternative rock music just completely hit rock bottom from 1998-2002. But as the Nu-Metal subgenre comes of legal age for Classic Alternative/Rock airplay, the question isn't if the stations can ignore it, they are. But for how much longer? Because it's not just coming, it's pounding at the door, right now.

And the absolute worst is on it's way; Because Creed and Nickelback were also played on Alternative rock radio.

Pleasant dreams...

Creed, Nickleback, Limp Bizkit!! The Horror!! Just glad as of right now, that kind of music mostly gets airplay on the god-awful active rock format.

However, testing good is a different story. Not just from the Misogynist and bad-taste stand-point, but from the overexposure standpoint. Post-Grunge had a 15 year reign on both Alternative and the Hot AC format, from roughly 1994 (the 1st Candlebox single), to the Shinedown and Daughtry singles of the late 2000's. Overexposure, as well as the Synth-Pop and Post-Punk revival, is what finally killed off Post-Grunge. This means it might take a bit longer for Nickleback nostalgia to become a thing.

Nu-Metal is a somewhat different scenario however, being as people who came of age in the late 90's/ early 2000's are starting to get nostalgic for that time frame. Nu-Metal also didn't have no-where near the lifespan post-grunge did, so the overexposure factor is not there.

gamefreak said:

Creed, Nickleback, Limp Bizkit!! The Horror!! Just glad as of right now, that kind of music mostly gets airplay on the god-awful active rock format.

However, testing good is a different story. Not just from the Misogynist and bad-taste stand-point, but from the overexposure standpoint. Post-Grunge had a 15 year reign on both Alternative and the Hot AC format, from roughly 1994 (the 1st Candlebox single), to the Shinedown and Daughtry singles of the late 2000's. Overexposure, as well as the Synth-Pop and Post-Punk revival, is what finally killed off Post-Grunge. This means it might take a bit longer for Nickleback nostalgia to become a thing.

Nu-Metal is a somewhat different scenario however, being as people who came of age in the late 90's/ early 2000's are starting to get nostalgic for that time frame. Nu-Metal also didn't have no-where near the lifespan post-grunge did, so the overexposure factor is not there.

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Candlebox wasn't post-grunge. They were a grunge band. Their first single "You" came out in '93. Perhaps you are confusing them with a different band? And 1994 wasn't a post-grunge year: Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, and Alice In Chains all had albums that came out that year which hit the number one spot in Billboard on release. Post-grunge started in '95 or '96, although some grunge imitators were around before then.

As for the rest of it, it all was a gradual sweep of styles. Classic or heritage rock or alternative classics is whatever was popular 10-20 years ago. We're hitting the point where the nu-metal era was was twenty years ago.

The biggest problem is whether GenXers are a big enough demographic in numbers to merit continuance of rock oldies formats like Alternative Classics and Classic Rock. Their numbers are smaller than the generations either before them or after them, and radio seems to chase the bigger money demos.

The two FM stations in Seattle that catered to GenXer rock -- a station that relied on GenX rock classics, and another one that played alternative classics -- both were flipped late last year, apparently because the audience didn't merit their continuance. And Seattle is a rock town -- the home of grunge.

It may be a tough time ahead for alternative classics, or stations leaning towards the 'alternative heritage' acts.

boombox4 said:

Their numbers are smaller than the generations either before them or after them, and radio seems to chase the bigger money demos.

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Financial (non-radio) research shows Gen-X'ers doing better financially than Millennials...the generation saddled with student loan debt for useless degrees, still living at home with mom & dad, etc. Stereotypes, but they are based in reality. Gen-X'ers are at the height of their earnings potential now & have more disposable income. Gen-X may be smaller in numbers, but they have the the money. When will programmers wake up to this?

G

upstate29651 said:

Gen-X may be smaller in numbers, but they have the the money. When will programmers wake up to this?

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If you dig into the research, you'll see Gen-Xers are also married, most with kids too. And yes radio programmers know all this, and are programming numerous stations in various formats for this demo. BTW they don't all like alternative music.

This is true. These married people are spending money on their households, hobbies, etc.

You're also correct in that this demo, by & large, doesn't care for what now passes as alternative, as they grew up with the 90's version of the format (a totally different creature than what is played now).

G

TheBigA said:

If you dig into the research, you'll see Gen-Xers are also married, most with kids too. And yes radio programmers know all this, and are programming numerous stations in various formats for this demo. BTW they don't all like alternative music.

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How big a bite have rap, EDM and other purely rhythmic genres taken out of the demographic (white, male, suburban, 25-44) that used to be alternative's happy hunting ground. Speaking purely anecdotally, I'm in my 60s and at least half of the 20-something guys I've worked with in the past 10-15 years have been into hip-hop or dance more than any form of rock. In fact, a recent colleague was a rap-exclusive 35-year-old! Could part of the reason for alternative's decline be this cross-racial, cross-economic crossover, combined with the growth of the non-white population that is generally a rhythmic bloc, with very few rock fans to be found?

CTListener said:

How big a bite have rap, EDM and other purely rhythmic genres taken out of the demographic (white, male, suburban, 25-44) that used to be alternative's happy hunting ground. Speaking purely anecdotally, I'm in my 60s and at least half of the 20-something guys I've worked with in the past 10-15 years have been into hip-hop or dance more than any form of rock. In fact, a recent colleague was a rap-exclusive 35-year-old! Could part of the reason for alternative's decline be this cross-racial, cross-economic crossover, combined with the growth of the non-white population that is generally a rhythmic bloc, with very few rock fans to be found?

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Interesting take.

As it seems, the least popular ethnic group to be is a white male, if you listen to the MSM. Since Rock tends to be the format that this group gravitates towards, and it does seem the format is dying out....could one say that in our rush to homoginize everything from music to people, the powers that be may...may...be forcing the demise of Rock?

Black America comprises 13% of our population, yet this group produces the vast majority of hip hop/rap out there. The biggest consumer of this genre? Whites. Social engineering, anyone?

upstate29651 said:

Interesting take.

As it seems, the least popular ethnic group to be is a white male, if you listen to the MSM. Since Rock tends to be the format that this group gravitates towards, and it does seem the format is dying out....could one say that in our rush to homoginize everything from music to people, the powers that be may...may...be forcing the demise of Rock?

Black America comprises 13% of our population, yet this group produces the vast majority of hip hop/rap out there. The biggest consumer of this genre? Whites. Social engineering, anyone?

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Whoa! Don't go Deep State on us! This isn't about Reich Wing talking points. Nobody is "social engineering" anything. Popular music tastes change and we've been seeing a big change for a couple of decades now.

CTListener said:

Could part of the reason for alternative's decline be this cross-racial, cross-economic crossover, combined with the growth of the non-white population that is generally a rhythmic bloc, with very few rock fans to be found?

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Keep in mind that what made rock so dominant wasn't the media, but the music. Ultimately, the reason why rock (and I include alternative as a sub-genre of rock) is fading away is because the music is mostly very derivative, not very interesting, and the artists don't have a story that people can identify with. So what's happened is the former rock audience has found other genres, and for some that may be hip hop, for others it may be country, depending on their geography.

For rock to have a revival, there needs to be an artist who takes the rock platform and grows it in some way, and that means making great and dynamic music. Someone has to be the next Elvis, the next Springsteen, the next Foo Fighters. Personally I don't see it happening because there's more money and more sex appeal now in other genres.

TheBigA said:

Keep in mind that what made rock so dominant wasn't the media, but the music. Ultimately, the reason why rock (and I include alternative as a sub-genre of rock) is fading away is because the music is mostly very derivative, not very interesting, and the artists don't have a story that people can identify with. So what's happened is the former rock audience has found other genres, and for some that may be hip hop, for others it may be country, depending on their geography.

For rock to have a revival, there needs to be an artist who takes the rock platform and grows it in some way, and that means making great and dynamic music. Someone has to be the next Elvis, the next Springsteen, the next Foo Fighters. Personally I don't see it happening because there's more money and more sex appeal now in other genres.

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Foo Fighters? How did they grow the rock platform in any way close to Elvis or Springsteen? Their lasting impact outside of being David Letterman's favorite band of their era was what, exactly?