Is this legal?

from wikipedia:
"Under Family Radio, WKDN also operated three FM translator stations: W207AB (89.3 FM) in Atlantic City, New Jersey; W207AE (89.3 FM) in Reading, Pennsylvania; and W249AA (97.7 FM) in Lebanon, Pennsylvania. These translators were not part of the station's sale to Merlin, and continue to broadcast Family Radio programming through a satellite feed of its Sacramento station, KEAR-FM."

I thought that a translator was allowed to supplement a local broadcast into an area where there is a weaker signal? I highly doubt that KEAR would be "weak" in Atlantic City, Reading and Lebanon.

Different rules for noncomms. Someone update me if things have changed, but any noncomm translators on commercial frequencies have to be fed over the air. Translators in the noncomm band can be satellite-fed, hence the religious satellators all over the country and WWFM's Steamboat Springs CO translator.

musichead1029 said:

Different rules for noncomms. Someone update me if things have changed, but any noncomm translators on commercial frequencies have to be fed over the air. Translators in the noncomm band can be satellite-fed, hence the religious satellators all over the country and WWFM's Steamboat Springs CO translator.

Click to expand...

I believe that's correct.

Also interesting to note that WKDN's Allentown 88.7 translator disappeared with the station sale, unlike the others.

Richard in Allentown

That is a ridiculous loophole. KEAR can only be heard in Atlantic City maybe once a century if there's triple hop e-skip. Yet, a translator for a commercial station has to be in the 60 dBu contour even though it's listenable out to the 40. If I want an LPFM on a translator I could just pay to downgrade a station in Wyoming to HD, feed its HD2, and then have a translator in NJ translate that HD2

Nick..don't think that's not happening. Cheap way to get on the air, and no annoying responsibility. Pirates with cash will love this!

Jeff Laurence said:

Nick..don't think that's not happening. Cheap way to get on the air, and no annoying responsibility. Pirates with cash will love this!

Click to expand...

It could happen with commercial stations too since the only restriction is that the primary station cannot financially support the translator. An independent third party can support both the primary in the middle of nowhere and the translator in the target market.

Nick said:

Jeff Laurence said:

Nick..don't think that's not happening. Cheap way to get on the air, and no annoying responsibility. Pirates with cash will love this!

Click to expand...

It could happen with commercial stations too since the only restriction is that the primary station cannot financially support the translator. An independent third party can support both the primary in the middle of nowhere and the translator in the target market.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't work for commercial stations, as the current regulations for commercial stations require over the air reception at the translator and the translator must be in the primary station's contour.

Pirates don't need commercials .. They just want a signal. This way it is legal..the primary station gets some cash flow..and they don't get arrested, or ever have to worry about getting in trouble. And they can sponsor their events like the pirates do in NYC. I did some very high energy spots for a Carribbean Hip Hop event called a "Camo Party" where they were selling tickets out of a barber shop in the Brooklyn area. Didn't know it was running on about 6 NYC pirate stations!

So if I have this right any non-comm station anywhere with an HD2 stream could "lease" that stream to anyone as long as there are no actual commercials...then the "program provider" could pay extra to jump on a "translator" in damn near any market..and have an FM presence in that market correct? And you guys know as well as I that there's always a way to generate income with a non-comm.

Religious and non-comms can provide program content to out of market translators correct? But commercial stations can not. What happened to separation of church and state? This seems really sneaky.

The original intent when those rules were adopted was to allow statewide public radio networks to fill in coverage holes in very remote parts of western states. If you're doing public radio in Utah, for instance, you could easily have a community 400+ miles from Salt Lake City that would receive real, valuable service from a translator relaying a Salt Lake-based station. If you can feed that translator via microwave or satellite, you can deliver a higher-quality signal than if you're trying to hopscotch a dozen translators all the way from Salt Lake to some remote community hours away.

I don't think anyone anticipated back when these rules went into place that they'd be used to feed translators thousands of miles away, far across state lines, but by the time someone had the idea to do that, the rules didn't explicitly forbid it and the horse was out of the barn.

Same deal with the HD2-via-translator loophole: nobody ever anticipated that a class B or C commercial station would ever have any use for a "fill-in" translator right on its own tower...until someone thought to ask for an FCC staff opinion on whether that translator could be used to relay an HD2 or HD3 instead of the main channel, and the staff said yes.

For whatever it's worth, a commercial station can provide "program content" to an out-of-market translator...if it's placed on an HD2/3/4 subchannel that then feeds the translator. CBS uses the HD subs of some of its FM sports stations to import out-of-market sister stations (you can hear WFAN from New York on HD3 channels in Orlando and Tampa, for instance), and there would be nothing stopping them from then putting those HD subs on a translator if there were a reason to do so.

Church-and-state has nothing to do with it. There are a handful of public broadcasters operating out-of-state translators (Minnesota Public Radio has several in Idaho, and eventually added full-power signals there). It's strictly a commercial-vs-noncomm divide: a commercial religious broadcaster can't own a translator outside its own signal contour, any more than a commercial secular broadcaster could. (But, again, either one could lease an HD2 to feed that translator...)

Family Stations can use one of the other non-comm translators to feed that one commercial translator.

They do it here with 102.5 in Akron OH, an Air 1 translator (W273BL) is fed by another satellite translator in the non-comm band in Hinckley (W215BS/90.9). At some point, 102.5 will be fed by a side channel of Clear Channel's WKDD/98.1.

It's been thought that CC would use its deal to use EMF translators to put one of its AMs on the translator, but it may also be an internal move, and we might see K-Love or Air 1 on WKDD-HD3 to feed the translator.

So if I understand this correctly the Family radio Translator in Lebanon Pa at 97.7 must be fed by one of the other non Com translators since it is in the Commercial band. The Atlantic city Translator and Reading Pa translators can be fed by Sat.

jvn said:

So if I understand this correctly the Family radio Translator in Lebanon Pa at 97.7 must be fed by one of the other non Com translators since it is in the Commercial band. The Atlantic city Translator and Reading Pa translators can be fed by Sat.

Click to expand...

Correct. It looks like KEAR is fed to Reading via satellite and Reading then feeds Lebanon/Lancaster.

jvn said:

So if I understand this correctly the Family radio Translator in Lebanon Pa at 97.7 must be fed by one of the other non Com translators since it is in the Commercial band. The Atlantic city Translator and Reading Pa translators can be fed by Sat.

Click to expand...

I thought it didn't matter where in the band the translator is - since frequency allocations for translators don't follow the usual frequency allocation requirements. It's just whether or not the "source" station is licensed as commercial or non-commercial.

WWFM is the best local example of this...they have Colorado translators for a station based in Trenton...in Allentown their translator is 92.7.

Richard in Allentown

rdcuffpa1 said:

jvn said:

So if I understand this correctly the Family radio Translator in Lebanon Pa at 97.7 must be fed by one of the other non Com translators since it is in the Commercial band. The Atlantic city Translator and Reading Pa translators can be fed by Sat.

Click to expand...

I thought it didn't matter where in the band the translator is - since frequency allocations for translators don't follow the usual frequency allocation requirements. It's just whether or not the "source" station is licensed as commercial or non-commercial.

Click to expand...

Nope...the rules are different for translators on channels 200-220 (87.9-91.9) and those on channels 221 and above (92.1-107.9). Only translators in the noncomm band can use satellite/microwave/internet to extend the range of a co-owned parent station. Translators in the commercial band must be fed over the air from the parent station or from another translator, if they're being used to extend the reach of a noncommercial parent station. If they extend the reach of a commercial parent station, they have to be fed over the air and cannot be owned by the parent station but must be operated by a third party with no direct financial support from the parent station. If they do not extend the reach of a commercial parent station but are used as "fill-in" translators (the translator's 60 dBu contour stays within the theoretical 60 of the parent station), they can be fed by satellite/microwave/internet. They can also be fed by satellite/microwave/internet if they're translating a parent AM station, but the translator's 60 can't extend past the 2 mV/m contour or a 25 mile radius of the parent AM, whichever is smaller.

Scott Fybush said:

Nope...the rules are different for translators on channels 200-220 (87.9-91.9) and those on channels 221 and above (92.1-107.9). Only translators in the noncomm band can use satellite/microwave/internet to extend the range of a co-owned parent station. Translators in the commercial band must be fed over the air from the parent station or from another translator, if they're being used to extend the reach of a noncommercial parent station. If they extend the reach of a commercial parent station, they have to be fed over the air and cannot be owned by the parent station but must be operated by a third party with no direct financial support from the parent station. If they do not extend the reach of a commercial parent station but are used as "fill-in" translators (the translator's 60 dBu contour stays within the theoretical 60 of the parent station), they can be fed by satellite/microwave/internet. They can also be fed by satellite/microwave/internet if they're translating a parent AM station, but the translator's 60 can't extend past the 2 mV/m contour or a 25 mile radius of the parent AM, whichever is smaller.

Click to expand...

So back to our WWFM example - the Steamboat Springs, Colo. is allowed to be a satellite-fed co-owned translator only because the translator is on 91.1 mHz?

And the other WWFM translators -- all of whom are >92.1 mHz -- must be either fed over the air by another translator (or the parent) or owned by an unrelated third party?

Richard

rdcuffpa1 said:

So back to our WWFM example - the Steamboat Springs, Colo. is allowed to be a satellite-fed co-owned translator only because the translator is on 91.1 mHz?

And the other WWFM translators -- all of whom are >92.1 mHz -- must be either fed over the air by another translator (or the parent) or owned by an unrelated third party?

Richard

Click to expand...

Correct on all counts. The other WWFM translators in Colorado are owned by the Pitkin County Translator Department and relay the 91.1 translator via off-air pickup.