That radio's am sounded awful!

We're currently renting a 2012 Chevy Sonic and when I tuned to the am band I thought I was listening to my sell phone. No, it was much worse than that! Radio manufactures should be required to make a better product!

I'm surprised they even include AM anymore on new car radios. Its just a matter of time before its out the door.

As far as it goes, in the last few years, I've listened to very few AM radios that were of quality enough to actually enjoy, and add to that all the hash and Ibuzz and it only seems to be hastening the demise of the AM band.

I’ve been reading about the demise of AM radio since 1980, and 32 years later were still talking about it.

They said more than 6 years ago that Plasma TVs and desktops PCs would be history…they still flourish.

The amazing thing is that in many markets AM radio is still king in both ratings and billing. I believe that 6 of the top ten billing stations in this country are AM.

Now what happens when all the boomers and their children are gone is the big question???

mp3RadioGuy said:

I’ve been reading about the demise of AM radio since 1980, and 32 years later were still talking about it.

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AM stations are going off the air more and more each year. But 4000 or so stations still remain on the air. How many of those actually make money on their own is another question.

They said more than 6 years ago that Plasma TVs and desktops PCs would be history…they still flourish.

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Tablets will never replace desktop or laptop PCs in the office, but they work better in other areas. And as long as the plasma - or CRT, for that matter - TVs still work, some people will use them until those sets die.

The amazing thing is that in many markets AM radio is still king in both ratings and billing. I believe that 6 of the top ten billing stations in this country are AM.

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How many of those stations are not in major markets, not running 50,000 watts, and went on the air after Calvin Coolidge left office?

Now what happens when all the boomers and their children are gone is the big question???

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Fixed. ;D

Boomers' kids were raised in the '70s and '80s, when rock on FM took over. They don't know AM except for news (in the largest markets), and sports. Now that news, talk, and sports is moving to FM, there will be little reason to keep the Ancient Modulation dinosaurs and their huge electric bills on the air. But that's still several years away.

Yes, it is sad to listen to most AM receivers. I audio quality in my Toyota is almost painful. As you know, AM on a quality radio can sound quite good, almost "FMish."

It's too bad that manufacturers look at the AM band as an afterthought. There's no doubt that folks would listen more if AM didn't cause their ears to bleed.

At least on models without HD Radio, JVC has traditionally used a very nice wideband AM tuner in their car radios. With some treble boost on the radio's EQ, a good AM music station transmitting full 10 kHz NRSC audio can indeed sound "FM-like" on one of these JVCs.

The one downside is they have a lousy front end: the AM tuner is easily disturbed by electromagnetic fields, such as driving under high-tension power lines, and the FM tuner suffers from "desense", causing the sensitivity to drastically reduce when driving within close range of another FM station's transmitter.

ChiefOperator said:

Yes, it is sad to listen to most AM receivers. I audio quality in my Toyota is almost painful. As you know, AM on a quality radio can sound quite good, almost "FMish."

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My AM car radios have always been pretty good. Not FM-quality (how can that happen with a maximum audio frequency of 10 kHz - less when IBOC is being used?), but better than a cellphone.

But my car is a 2004 model. The new cars I've rented in the last year have had horrible AM sections - either poor selectivity, horrible sound quality, or both. But outside of sports, there is almost no reason to listen to AM in Phoenix AZ anymore. My next car may not even have it if it's offered only as an option.

It's too bad that manufacturers look at the AM band as an afterthought. There's no doubt that folks would listen more if AM didn't cause their ears to bleed.

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Manufacturers look at AM as an afterthought because it is, and has been for 30+ years. Take away the top-market blowtorches, and the AM audience is maybe 10-15% of the remaining audience. If I'm the CEO of a car company, I'm not considering AM radio to be anything serious anymore. I'd be emphasizing FM, satellite radio (even that is a niche), and smartphone interfaces.

The market (meaning We The People) have made a decision, and that decision is that Ancient Modulation is pretty much dead now as a commercial radio service, outside of the biggest markets and their 50 kW stations.

I'm surprised they even include AM anymore on new car radios. Its just a matter of time before its out the door.

As far as it goes, in the last few years, I've listened to very few AM radios that were of quality enough to actually enjoy, and add to that all the hash and Ibuzz and it only seems to be hastening the demise of the AM band.

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Look at the top billing stations in a lot of top 25 markets. Top rated too. You'll find that a lot of them are still on AM.

The 50kW flamethrowers aren't going anywhere. It's the small stations that will migrate to FM status through translators. The handwriting is on the wall for that, but it will clean up the band and allow fewer, but higher powered, stations. I drove from western NJ to Cape Cod last week, and listened to the Yankee game on 880 the whole way up. No FM will do that for you.

WNTIRadio said:

Look at the top billing stations in a lot of top 25 markets. Top rated too. You'll find that a lot of them are still on AM.

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I'd also bet that they have a few sister stations on FM carrying the real weight.

WNTIRadio said:

The 50kW flamethrowers aren't going anywhere. It's the small stations that will migrate to FM status through translators. The handwriting is on the wall for that, but it will clean up the band and allow fewer, but higher powered, stations.

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Maybe not immediately, but they will also be leaving as they are no longer financially viable. That will be when the audience literally fades away, which may not be far in the future as many AM listeners enter their golden years.

WNTIRadio said:

I drove from western NJ to Cape Cod last week, and listened to the Yankee game on 880 the whole way up. No FM will do that for you.

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True, but satellite radio has been doing that for over 10 years now, and as the network for cell coverage evolves more, there will be even less need for those old blowtorches.

I don't have to PAY for the coverage of the blowtorches. Satellite costs money. And with the cellular providers cutting out unlimited data plans, so will streaming. Conversely, streaming also costs the station money as well, in bandwidth and royalty fees. This signal can reach either 1 or 10,000,000 people for the same cost for the operator and the listener.

Cellular networks will not replace radio. There is only so much bandwidth. Imagine drive time and 1,000,000 people are streaming a station... going to crash the network! Each stream is a separate stream to an individual listener, not very efficient. And satellite has leveled off in subs... there has been no growth at Sirius/XM in the past few years.

I listen to Radio Australia some mornings, on the way to work in Salt Lake City ;D .
Of course, it's on CBC Radio 540 out of Saskatchewan, so it's just a few hundred miles away.
Now, if they'd do something about those blasted new streetlights that go on and off at random (and buzz when they do), it'd be a very pleasant experience.

nocomradio said:

I'm surprised they even include AM anymore on new car radios. Its just a matter of time before its out the door.

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Aren't all tuners with FM also required to have AM as well? The only exception that seems to exist is for Walkman-type battery powered portable radios, such as those little handheld Insignia HD tuners Best Buy was selling.

WNTIRadio said:

Cellular networks will not replace radio. There is only so much bandwidth. Imagine drive time and 1,000,000 people are streaming a station... going to crash the network! Each stream is a separate stream to an individual listener, not very efficient. And satellite has leveled off in subs... there has been no growth at Sirius/XM in the past few years.

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I doubt that cell networks will entirely replace radio, for sure. But, the simple fact that AM radios are being offered in lesser quality and in some cases not at all, is very telling of the state of things. It says to me that there isn't a market for them anymore in the new car buyer. That in turn tells me that there isn't as much of an AM market to serve those non-existent customers anymore either.

Satellite may not be the end all be all, but it is offered in many new cars, along with an input port for other devices (like cell phones) to offer other options people are wanting. Cell phones also have limits too, I agree, but not everyone at the same moment will be using them as they don't all listen to their radio at the same time either.

Just have a look around however, at any young person (defined as under 30) and you will notice they aren't listening to their radio. 9 times out of 10, they have their smartphone with a set of earbuds playing a streaming station, or have that same device coupled to the radio in the dash of their car. Ask them about AM and you are likely to get a blank stare. Ask them what station they listen to and you most likely will get an answer about the internet stream they are listening to rather than an over the air station. Its they way things are leaning, and as technology gets even more advanced, things will change. Radio may not die completely, but it won't look the same as it does now.

I see some people driving around with earbuds... they should be pulled over immediately. How unsafe is that??

AM radios in cars have been crap for 30 years, with a few exceptions. My Subaru stock AM radio is actually quite decent. But that's not what's stopping people from listening. It's not the quality of the radio, it's the quality (or lack thereof) of programming.

satech said:

nocomradio said:

I'm surprised they even include AM anymore on new car radios. Its just a matter of time before its out the door.

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Aren't all tuners with FM also required to have AM as well? The only exception that seems to exist is for Walkman-type battery powered portable radios, such as those little handheld Insignia HD tuners Best Buy was selling.

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I don't think there's ever been a law requiring a particular radio band. This isn't like the 1960s All-Channel law that required TVs to have UHF as well as VHF. FM-only radios have always existed, going back to the old WW2-era 42-50 MHz band.

WNTIRadio said:

I see some people driving around with earbuds... they should be pulled over immediately. How unsafe is that??

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It used to be against the law in most states. Back in the 80's when Sony introduced the Walkman, and everyone else followed suit, many states outlawed using headphones while driving for the obvious distraction they created. I guess it never gets enforced anymore, because I see that quite a lot too.

KeithE4 said:

satech said:

nocomradio said:

I'm surprised they even include AM anymore on new car radios. Its just a matter of time before its out the door.

Click to expand...

Aren't all tuners with FM also required to have AM as well? The only exception that seems to exist is for Walkman-type battery powered portable radios, such as those little handheld Insignia HD tuners Best Buy was selling.

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I don't think there's ever been a law requiring a particular radio band. This isn't like the 1960s All-Channel law that required TVs to have UHF as well as VHF. FM-only radios have always existed, going back to the old WW2-era 42-50 MHz band.

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The mandatory all channel law for radio was proposed by the then National Association of FM Broadcasters. But FM radio took off and the marketplace demanded FM radios so the all channel concept was set aside.

Bad AM sections are actually a response to the marketplace and reducing product returns. Radios that able to produce bandwidth were returned due to noise complaints on AM. Reducing the bandwidth lowered the number of radios that were returned.

radiorob2.0 said:

Bad AM sections are actually a response to the marketplace and reducing product returns. Radios that able to produce bandwidth were returned due to noise complaints on AM. Reducing the bandwidth lowered the number of radios that were returned.

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That's what the NRSC bandwidth and pre-emphasis standards were supposed to address: to give receiver manufacturers a set of specifications to work with when designing AM tuner sections. But alas, it arrived about a decade too late; despite a big marketing push by the NAB, the "AMAX" receiver standard never caught on, except for the GE Superadio III, Sony SRF-42, Denon TU-680NAB, and some OEM car radios.

It also doesn't help that to cut costs, many tuners run the AM audio through the FM MPX decoder chip and 75 uS de-emphasis, making an already narrowband tuner sound both narrowband and muffled on AM!

satech said:

radiorob2.0 said:

Bad AM sections are actually a response to the marketplace and reducing product returns. Radios that able to produce bandwidth were returned due to noise complaints on AM. Reducing the bandwidth lowered the number of radios that were returned.

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That's what the NRSC bandwidth and pre-emphasis standards were supposed to address: to give receiver manufacturers a set of specifications to work with when designing AM tuner sections. But alas, it arrived about a decade too late; despite a big marketing push by the NAB, the "AMAX" receiver standard never caught on, except for the GE Superadio III, Sony SRF-42, Denon TU-680NAB, and some OEM car radios.

It also doesn't help that to cut costs, many tuners run the AM audio through the FM MPX decoder chip and 75 uS de-emphasis, making an already narrowband tuner sound both narrowband and muffled on AM!

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NRSC-2 was a facepalm, it was mandatory for the broadcasters but voluntary for the receiver manufactures. The AM's that were able to have true high end now had the artificial high boost and sharp roll off. Those radios you mention were not on the market very long and the GE SR III wasn't officially AMAX but was included since it was somewhat available compared to the other receivers.

Plus NRSC-2 still couldn't overcome the part 15 issues. Several years ago on another forum an engineer shared an amusing story regarding NRSC-2. A company was trying to promote AMAX at an NAB gathering but had a major problem, the fancy tuner couldn't receive anything but noise because of all of the interference and other issues preventing a clean signal.

radiorob2.0 said:

NRSC-2 was a facepalm, it was mandatory for the broadcasters but voluntary for the receiver manufactures. The AM's that were able to have true high end now had the artificial high boost and sharp roll off.

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The NRSC 10 kHz bandwidth limit was a compromise between those who wanted to preserve full 15 kHz audio on AM, and those who wanted to cut the bandwidth down to 5 kHz to eliminate all overlap between next-adjacent-channel stations. Ultimately, 10 kHz bandwidth eliminated overlap between second-adjacent channels, which did go a long way towards reducing the "monkey chatter" that listeners were complaining about, and yet is still wide enough for music to be enjoyed with adequate fidelity on a wideband receiver.

And the NRSC pre-emphasis curve was actually a reduction from the extreme amounts of high-end boost that many AM stations had been using since the advent of multiband audio processing in the '70s. Unfortunately while Canada mandated the NRSC curve for all AM stations, the FCC only mandated that C-Quam AM Stereo stations use it; mono AM stations in the USA can, and do, still use widely varying amounts of high-end boost on their audio.

Combine that with the IBOC-era trend of AM stations reducing their audio bandwidth to as little as 4.5 kHz even if they aren't transmitting IBOC, and receiver manufacturers once again have no common standard by which to model their AM tuners, so many simply choose the lowest common denominator of a 4.5 kHz bandwidth on AM -- with a sharp brickwall filter above that point to eliminate the "self-interference" hiss typical of analog reception of AM IBOC stations, which again goes toward the goal of reducing consumer complaints at the expense of audio quality.