FM Translators - Directionality - Power

[kfbkfb]

Why limit FM translators to 250W?

Currently, some FM translators have non-omni transmitting patterns, why not let FM translators have as much power as they want (up to 100kW) with the limiting factor being some interference spec for existing stations (in nearby markets) using the same FM frequency?

This approach would almost certainly result in some odd radiation patterns, but if the FM frequency is vacant (for some specific geographic area), why not use as much of it as possible?


Kirk Bayne

 

[HTX]

In Houston, TX translators are a lot more than 250 watts even if they’re not licensed as such

 

[DavidEduardo]

Why limit FM translators to 250W?

Currently, some FM translators have non-omni transmitting patterns, why not let FM translators have as much power as they want (up to 100kW) with the limiting factor being some interference spec for existing stations (in nearby markets) using the same FM frequency?

This approach would almost certainly result in some odd radiation patterns, but if the FM frequency is vacant (for some specific geographic area), why not use as much of it as possible?

This is not how the FCC works. They have classes of service based on power and height. Translators belong to none of those classes, and are subject to having to move, close or reduce power based on changes in existing A and B/C channels in the market.

 

[kfbkfb]

(Houston TX situation)
Other (full power) FM stations don't complain?


Kirk Bayne

 

[DavidEduardo]

(Houston TX situation)
Other (full power) FM stations don't complain?

Yes, they have on occasion but it is like playing Whack-a-Mole as others keep popping back up and the FCC does not take their licenses away.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Why limit FM translators to 250W?

Currently, some FM translators have non-omni transmitting patterns, why not let FM translators have as much power as they want (up to 100kW) with the limiting factor being some interference spec for existing stations (in nearby markets) using the same FM frequency?

This approach would almost certainly result in some odd radiation patterns, but if the FM frequency is vacant (for some specific geographic area), why not use as much of it as possible?


Kirk Bayne

Translators were meant to be fill ins or slightly extend service, not offer coverage equal to or better then an actual station.

Again, youre looking for a solution to problem that doesnt exist.

There is one exception to the translator rules limiting them to 250 watts.

alaska.

We have one translator licensed for 1090 watts, several licensed for 650 watts and a few licensed for a smidge more then 250 watts.

Translator rules are VERY different here and have been.

KINY 800 Juneau has had FM translators for 30 years, originally fed by phone line back in the old days.

There's a translator in my community, K232DZ 94.3 thats had an alternate program delivery method waiver and when it signed on in the early 90s, it was a relay of KIAM 630, 250 miles away. It's now legally a relay of KIAM 91.9 even though the programming is no different. Its fed by satellite.

Plenty of translators here are fed by internet or satellite when that would never be allowed in the lower 48....

 

[Kelly A]

Another consideration; unlike full class stations, translators, along with LPFM, are considered 'secondary or auxiliary services'. What that means; should a full class station apply-for and change frequency or coverage in the same area, translators or LPFM stations in the way would potentially violate the interference contour to a full class station, and would be displaced. In those cases, too-bad, so-sad for the translator or LPFM licensee. Neither the full class station, nor the Commission is obligated to find a new channel for secondary services.
Limiting the ERP of a translator across the board, (except in Alaska with hundreds of miles between stations) limits potential messiness and disruption when it comes to translators intruding on full class station coverage(s).

 

[kfbkfb]

Has this happened - having to change an existing FM translator (move to another frequency, change directional pattern, lower power level)?

It seems to me that lawsuits might be filed - something to the effect that the FM translator is the only link to the outside world for certain minority groups and the FM translator characteristics shouldn't be changed in any way.


Kirk Bayne

 

[Mikey Radio]

It seems to me that lawsuits might be filed - something to the effect that the FM translator is the only link to the outside world for certain minority groups and the FM translator characteristics shouldn't be changed in any way.

Kirk Bayne

Please see @DavidEduardo's explanation in post #3 above. Translators could try and sue all they might to protect the frequencies they're on and "public service" they offer, but they wouldn't really have a legal leg to stand on.

https://www.radiodiscussions.com/threads/fm-translators-directionality-power.760040/#post-6579634

Also, going back to your original post, allowing translators to broadcast at any power level they wished, even at levels equal to or greater than standard licensed FM stations would create a world of chaos and would be unfair to those FM stations who'd been operating legally and within licensed parameters. While the FCC isn't perfect, they don't always get it right and some of the decisions they make at times can be head scratchers, for the most part there are reasons they have certain rules and guidelines in place and operate in the manner they do.

 

[kfbkfb]

Some specific interference spec would limit the power (maybe only in certain directions) so that an FM translator wouldn't cause any more interference than stations on the same frequency in nearby radio markets, let the FM translators have as much power (and a directional pattern) as they want, up to the specific interference spec.

(around here, some FM translators have less than 250W due to an interference spec, use this same spec to allow >250W)


Kirk Bayne

 

[Kelly A]

Has this happened - having to change an existing FM translator (move to another frequency, change directional pattern, lower power level)?

Sure, over the years it's happened many times that a translator becomes displaced because it either does, or in the future will cause interference to a full class station.

It seems to me that lawsuits might be filed - something to the effect that the FM translator is the only link to the outside world for certain minority groups and the FM translator characteristics shouldn't be changed in any way.

Nope, secondary service. As Mikey and David said; being a translator licensee means you essentially have no rights. There is likely never been a case where a translator is the only form of link to an outside world. Translators are technically an extension of an existing AM or FM full class station. LPFM's are a different story, in that they have the same or lack of rights to operate as a translator. If something changes in the allocation for a full class station, whether that's involving adjacent or co-channel-use, the LPFM would be displaced just like a translator.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Sure, over the years it's happened many times that a translator becomes displaced because it either does, or in the future will cause interference to a full class station.

Nope, secondary service. As Mikey and David said; being a translator licensee means you essentially have no rights. There is likely never been a case where a translator is the only form of link to an outside world. Translators are technically an extension of an existing AM or FM full class station. LPFM's are a different story, in that they have the same or lack of rights to operate as a translator. If something changes in the allocation for a full class station, whether that's involving adjacent or co-channel-use, the LPFM would be displaced just like a translator.

If you follow the strict definition of a translator, then no.. likely no translator is the only link to the outside world.

But if you loosen that definition.. then yes, some of our rebroadcast stations are peoples only like to the outside world with no tv or internet.

 

[Greg Goodfellow]

Some specific interference spec would limit the power (maybe only in certain directions) so that an FM translator wouldn't cause any more interference than stations on the same frequency in nearby radio markets, let the FM translators have as much power (and a directional pattern) as they want, up to the specific interference spec.

(around here, some FM translators have less than 250W due to an interference spec, use this same spec to allow >250W)


Kirk Bayne

The station I volunteer at runs less than 20 watts. Otherwise, it would interfere with a college station. Either station raising power would create a chaotic listening experience in their overlapping service areas. However, since both stations stream, as listeners modify their listening experiences, that should eventually create less of a concern.

 

[radioislife2020]

In Houston, TX translators are a lot more than 250 watts even if they’re not licensed as such

a bit obsessed?

 

[DavidEduardo]

a bit obsessed?

No, he is not obsessed. The quantity of translator violations in Houston seems to be greater than in the entire rest of the country... and most of them related to just a couple of people.

 

[radioislife2020]

No, he is not obsessed. The quantity of translator violations in Houston seems to be greater than in the entire rest of the country... and most of them related to just a couple of people.

alleged violations. Just saying unless you are reading the power levels or the fcc has given them a fine then it is nothing more than an alleged Violation. I can assure you the Fcc has been to the wells Fargo tower a few times and I have yet to see a fine. So i would ask why?

 

[kfbkfb]

In a given radio market, there are several slices of unused FM spectrum that snake through the radio market.

If someone/a company wants to build 1 or more FM transmitters (on the same frequency) with unusual directional patterns to use some/most of the unused spectrum, I'd say let them, just use the existing interference limit (that limits a KC FM translator on 106.1 to less than 250W) to limit the power level(s), which may be higher than 250W in some cases.


Kirk Bayne

 

[HTX]

alleged violations. Just saying unless you are reading the power levels or the fcc has given them a fine then it is nothing more than an alleged Violation. I can assure you the Fcc has been to the wells Fargo tower a few times and I have yet to see a fine. So i would ask why?

I doubt it’s happened recently considering the amount of translators originating programming with no fines

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

alleged violations. Just saying unless you are reading the power levels or the fcc has given them a fine then it is nothing more than an alleged Violation. I can assure you the Fcc has been to the wells Fargo tower a few times and I have yet to see a fine. So i would ask why?

I saw one picture of a translator installation going in in houston with a COMPUTER, much more more sturdy/rigid cable capable of handling more power and a much bigger antenna than needed.

Theres been pretty damning evidence over the last few years multiple translators are violating multiple rules.. and while its not been scientifically proven, and im the first to say.. STOP USING THE C WORD....... the evidence is actually beyond damning that many houston area translators are cheating on muiltiple levels.

I've heard similar from at least one very well respecte, talented houston broadcast engineer.

Nevermind one of the AMs that ive heard in both wyoming and alaska.. its only been heard here three times but was heard almost nightly in wyoming, when i was in a nullk.. and heard better then some on houston can hear it!

 

[DavidEduardo]

alleged violations. Just saying unless you are reading the power levels or the fcc has given them a fine then it is nothing more than an alleged Violation.

There is more to this than power output. There have been / are translators with no originating station, violations of Nielsen's PPM encoding and simple things like no legal ID when there was not an originating station either.

A number of local stations.... legal and compliant ones... have registered complaints but the situation is such that it's not worth taking the time and spending on legal counsel and engineering to put the violators to rest.

I can assure you the Fcc has been to the wells Fargo tower a few times and I have yet to see a fine. So i would ask why?

They can only fine a station if they find a violation. If excess power is cut before an inspector gets in the elevator, then there is nothing to cite. And the FCC does not have the time, budget or staff to watch this one on a daily basis.

I remember having tried to pursue similar cases in Puerto Rico where the cost was high and the FCC did not have staff or resources. My Washington attorney said that what we had was a situation of "benign neglect" where the FCC just ignored "little violations" that it did not have enough staff to pursue.