The article is supposed to be about swapping ownership of KPAM with KKOL. Any mention of physically moving KPAM to Seattle was because of a misunderstanding or just a typo.
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1300 KKOL...
- Thread starter swhyde1980
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The article is supposed to be about swapping ownership of KPAM with KKOL. Any mention of physically moving KPAM to Seattle was because of a misunderstanding or just a typo.
I'm wrong that adding a new station, let alone something proposed to be 50kW to an existing site isn't considered new? Really??
You're right about one thing; the old 1590 site was built in the 60's, but would, and will never support adding a diplexed 50kW station as-is. 1590 is a hunk of junk, never built right nor properly maintained for over 50 years. To a neighbor, the new 50kW station will be the interloper, considering 1590 barely has any field strength past the cow pasture it was built on anyway. Rebuilding that site to actually radiate? It's going to require a lot of capital.
As Archie mentioned in their reply, just look at the years of NIMBY battles Andy went through moving and upgrading KRKO. That was dealing with residents less well-off than Bainbridge Island residents, and this all happened many years ago. Things have changed even more. The FCC has lost most of their people used to dealing with RFI complaints. All it will take is one Bainbridge resident to write their member of Congress, and the Commission will stall any issuance of a CP until AM, and we're all dead.
Of course it's doable, I've done it many times. The rules of engagement have changed though, especially when it comes to squeaky wheel NIMBY's. Politics overrule the rules. A moved, or new facility already has to mitigate RFI for one year after the license is issued anyway. The Commission has been known to extend that deadline. Cordless phones are the least of the problem. When the NIMBY's start making claims that their Internet is slower, or a business has RFI into their fire alarm system and doesn't want you touching it, that's when all sorts of life-safety effects from your new station come into play. That's when lawyers get involved.
My original point stands: Any company who tries to build a new 50kW AM site near industrial, or up-scale residential areas, should have their collective heads examined. Salem goofed with trying to build 1300 near the Port of Tacoma. They will be making a similar mistake in trying to build one on Bainbridge.
Actually, that's ELF (Earth Liberation Front).
Andy built new towers and a building, the land he built on was never used for transmitting AM signals till he put up towers. So for me there is a difference between what Salem is doing and what Andy did. The Salem site on Bainbridge is not putting up new tower, or changing the land use. It was and still is a transmission site for AM radio. Even if the neighbors block the 50KW addition, they can not stop what is currently transmitted from there.
Salem is not building new towers or adding towers. They are using what they have. They are adding a new tenant to their pre existing, let me repeat that for those that can not comprehend that this site is already built. Salem is adding a new renter/tenant station to their pre existing towers and main building.
As far as not built right. Not sure what you mean. Ground systems can be fixed. Towers re welded and bonded.
As far as Fire alarm panels, the old K2 factory next to the Salem site on Vashon, although vacant, has had to maintain a fire alerting system for over 15 years since K2 vacated the place. There system has co existed with the two 50kw stations being transmitted from the transmission site next to them. The smart way to address a situation like RFI in the fire alarm panel system, is to use the contractor that installed the system and contacting the alarm panel manufacture. A broadcast engineer is not qualified to work on a fire alarm panel. I have monitored alarm systems at two sites, one a stand alone 50kw and one two diplexed 50kw they work fine.
The Salem site is already built, been there since 1964 (how many times must I remind people of this). Salem needs to add coax, just like a new renter adding their coax to a pre existing tower for a two way or STL antenna. They are adding a transmitter, phaser in the existing building, not a new building and new diplexer at the tower bases. But they are not putting up new towers. No real major construction changing the look of the facility.
True there will be more RF energy coming off the towers, but a competent, polite engineer can help remedy the RFI issues. Either through a insured and qualified contractor or a simple plug in phone RFI filter. They even make filters for computer networks cat5e or 6 shielded cables. Rich people on Bainbrige are not he only high speed internet users we have internet here on Vashon too. We even have indoor plumbing.
And 1590 is now 20KW days. Not much the neighbors did about that power that increase from 5kw to 20kw.
The neighbors and Salem need to find a way to co exist, the site and towers are already there (since 1964) as is the current level of RFI (they added more RFI when 1590 went 20KW and they added the 10KW expanded band station). If you get rid of the current RFI issues and do it right, then adding another 50kw should not be an issue.
Salem is not building new towers or adding towers. They are using what they have. They are adding a new tenant to their pre existing, let me repeat that for those that can not comprehend that this site is already built. Salem is adding a new renter/tenant station to their pre existing towers and main building.
As far as not built right. Not sure what you mean. Ground systems can be fixed. Towers re welded and bonded.
As far as Fire alarm panels, the old K2 factory next to the Salem site on Vashon, although vacant, has had to maintain a fire alerting system for over 15 years since K2 vacated the place. There system has co existed with the two 50kw stations being transmitted from the transmission site next to them. The smart way to address a situation like RFI in the fire alarm panel system, is to use the contractor that installed the system and contacting the alarm panel manufacture. A broadcast engineer is not qualified to work on a fire alarm panel. I have monitored alarm systems at two sites, one a stand alone 50kw and one two diplexed 50kw they work fine.
The Salem site is already built, been there since 1964 (how many times must I remind people of this). Salem needs to add coax, just like a new renter adding their coax to a pre existing tower for a two way or STL antenna. They are adding a transmitter, phaser in the existing building, not a new building and new diplexer at the tower bases. But they are not putting up new towers. No real major construction changing the look of the facility.
True there will be more RF energy coming off the towers, but a competent, polite engineer can help remedy the RFI issues. Either through a insured and qualified contractor or a simple plug in phone RFI filter. They even make filters for computer networks cat5e or 6 shielded cables. Rich people on Bainbrige are not he only high speed internet users we have internet here on Vashon too. We even have indoor plumbing.
And 1590 is now 20KW days. Not much the neighbors did about that power that increase from 5kw to 20kw.
The neighbors and Salem need to find a way to co exist, the site and towers are already there (since 1964) as is the current level of RFI (they added more RFI when 1590 went 20KW and they added the 10KW expanded band station). If you get rid of the current RFI issues and do it right, then adding another 50kw should not be an issue.
Oops, you are right. I meant KARI, KARY is 100.9 in Grandview. Still, my question is still the same. Weren't there interference issues with that station in all sorts of equipment? Re: chordless phones. We've had the same chordless phone for at least 20 years. Why? Because there's no need to replace it. The thing has had three or four batteries, but that is to be expected.
Exactly. When I read that in the news article it made me question the motives, and possibly the veracity, of the people involved. Well-to-do people don't depend on 1700 khz, 1979 era cordless phones. Sorry -- just not buying it. And the vast majority of cordless phones since the 1990's have been 900 Mhz, which is close to many cell frequencies. Unless someone can prove to me that 900 MHz cordless phones are sensitive to MW radiation I just can't buy it -- although it's possible I'm wrong. But wouldn't it also be messing with their smartphones also? How come that wouldn't have also been mentioned, since nearly everyone has one of those?
All the more reason why the city council should not be involved. If we were talking about people and not a radio station, there would be a case for discrimination. There still might be if politics or religion is a factor, given the owner.
Exactly.
The owners/license of 1590 did the right thing building in what was a rural area for their commercial operation in 1964. Back then I bet they had no commercial in the area and very few neighbors. And they had to build the site right or the FCC would not have granted the license for the C.P. Now if over the years they kept the ground system intact or not mowing the field is possible.
If anything adding a new tenant to the Salem site allows them to make ground system repairs and make sure the over all antenna array is functioning properly for all stations at the site.
As I have said. I use cordless phones at AM transmitter sites. I have a cordless phone in my house about a mile away from KOMO. The issue with cordless phones is they have electronics that are easier to pick up RFI than the standard desk phone. From all the issues I have dealt with on cordless phones the interference is introduces in the base station unit and can be fixed by adding the ATT Z100b1 filter and a ferrite bead on the power cord. So if the NIMBY neighbors try that route they will loose.
Salem and the neighborhood working together will actually give the resident with the interference a better more robust installation from other electrical noise not just the RFI generated from the transmission site. If grounding is improved on a cable TV hookup or phone system that's another good thing.
Salem pays property taxes too, in Kitsap and King County.
No where in this do I see the City needing to get involved. If anything the City should be reaching out to both parties to HELP facilitate the RFI remediation.
Salem knows they will have to deal with RFI after making changes to a site. I don't think this is the first time Salem has built a transmission site, added a station to one or dealt with the FCC. The new tenant needs to be turned on and allowed PTA to facilitate fixing the "new" RFI. If it's not "turned on" there is nothing to fix. So if any of these residents want RFI to be fixed at their location, then the new station has to be turned on. If Salem were to stop today and walk away the neighbors will get NO chance of getting any RFI remediation/fixes. The neighbors should look at this as a window of opportunity to get past and present (when 1300 is turned on) RFI issues fixed.
The City should be a facilitator not an antagonist against one or the other.
No where in this do I see the City needing to get involved. If anything the City should be reaching out to both parties to HELP facilitate the RFI remediation.
Salem knows they will have to deal with RFI after making changes to a site. I don't think this is the first time Salem has built a transmission site, added a station to one or dealt with the FCC. The new tenant needs to be turned on and allowed PTA to facilitate fixing the "new" RFI. If it's not "turned on" there is nothing to fix. So if any of these residents want RFI to be fixed at their location, then the new station has to be turned on. If Salem were to stop today and walk away the neighbors will get NO chance of getting any RFI remediation/fixes. The neighbors should look at this as a window of opportunity to get past and present (when 1300 is turned on) RFI issues fixed.
The City should be a facilitator not an antagonist against one or the other.
Nobody said that was a concern. What is in dispute is adding another station.
According to their CP they're going for 3.2kW at night. Why even bother? That station will barely make the mainland.
I mean that site has been a dilapidated pile of junk for years. Their ATU's and phasor look like something sold to them by Mr. Haney of Green Acres fame.
That's what I'm saying. And there are few alarm techs that are familiar with RFI mitigation. Most will just tell their customers that their entire system will need to be wired with shielded wire and cost a ton of money. That get's the owner really worked up. To your point; you Mr. Broadcast Engineer, telling the complainant the alarm tech is wrong, is usually met with skepticism. Comparing Vashon where AM sites have been around since Christ was a corporal, and Bainbridge Island, is apples and oranges. Cease and desist letters from lawyers usually follow, then the station brings their lawyer into the mix.. Wash, rinse, repeat.
This has little to do with look, and everything to do with neighborhood perception.
Other than John Ratzenburger, there aren't any other well off people on Vashon. Compared to Bainbridge, Vashon is still out in the sticks.
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Yes I have, you can look it up too before your next post. They are adding no new towers, your previous post was simply spreading rumors. Glade you at least updated your post, but did not clarify there are no new towers. It will make the main land it's traveling over salt water.
It passes the proof, just because you don't like the paint job doesn't mean it's wrong. Since the original build, they upped the power on 1590 and added the expanded band station, they had to replace the phasor and ATU's. When adding the new station (1300) they will have the opportunity to fix issues and repair the ground system. The antenna array needs to be operating for all three stations so proofs can show proper operation.
Property taxes on that lot have been paid by the license of the station that broadcast from there since 1964. I think they have their right to how they use their land. Just as the neighbor does. If some cooperation is needed to meet each others goals, they should work towards that.
There is a process that has to happen.
Yup no one with money out here...Keep thinking that way please. I respect my neighbors privacy and don't go around blabbing how much they have or how they made their money.
I think the question is whether the Nimby Neighbors have more money than God. Couldn't resist that one.
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Last time I was out there, SRO still owned the place.
But... Didn't they have to rebuild some of that network after a recent fire in one of the ATUs?
They certainly have as much influence.
Ya know what Steve, I think they should hire you to be the point person for all the RFI mitigation! Since you can predict the future to the point of knowing how to deal with the Bainbridge NIMBY's, you'll be a natural.
I don't predict the future, I just learn from the past and improve myself. I think it is true that history repeats itself to some degree. This type of scenario has played out before and will again until AM reached the end. Which you have been predicting, true the end is alot closer than is was in 1941 or 1964. But AM has a little life left.
I do have several locations on Vashon where I have built up my skills dealing with RFI. I have pretty much given alot of my tricks of the trade in this thread free of charge.
Salem does have one advantage that some stations that lease a site don't. Salem owns the land so the NIMBY's can't apply pressure to a land owner that leases a site to a AM station for a transmitter site to cancel the lease.
Well first, they sold the license. The deal included a lease on the Salem towers. They have to hold their end up. Second, were there any complaints when KLFE cranked it up to 20,000 watts? How about 1680? I don't remember any. And the fact the site has been in existence since 1964 would kinda tell me Salem might have the upper hand here.
I am a bit confused here. Everybody is talking about Salem this and Salem that, but Salem no longer is the licensee for KKOL 1300. They traded 1300 for KPAM 860 Troutdale/Portland back in May. Intelli, LLC owns 1300 now, and while he (Tron Dinh Do) has the right to be a part of the triplexing agreement, I don't believe he is required to be a part of it. If the NIMBY heat is too hot on Bainbridge, or he figures his Vietnamese audience would be better served from a different location, I don't think he is obliged to transmit from Salem's facility. The whole article from the Kitsap Sun was fairly confused and messed up...KPAM in Portland is staying right where it is, AFAIK. Salem has rebranded 860 as "The Answer" and is marketing it down there as such. The Answer to what? Hmmm, good question. Apparently Michael Medved is The Answer to all of your questions and fears. Me, I'll take my chances elsewhere- YMMV.
You're likely correct, in that there is no requirement that 1300 move to Bainbridge. On the other hand, they do have a construction permit that indicates they'll use the existing towers. The last time they tried to set up shop anywhere near their original site, they wound up on a boat. Efficient as that may have been (the people who built it certainly thought the ground system was dandy), it was no permanent solution.
I hadn't heard that Bainbridge was all that lousy, considering it's been associated with 1590, nearly forever... at least as its night site, but Kelly is certainly in a position to know. Regardless, given how people feel about RF and towers these days, it may turn out that "good enough" will have to do.
After Harbor Island became unworkable, KOL and KJR both had their challenges finding a new home. That's the main reason it's always amazed me that stations would sell the land under their towers for any reason... financial or otherwise. But... it seems to be a happening thing these days.
I hadn't heard that Bainbridge was all that lousy, considering it's been associated with 1590, nearly forever... at least as its night site, but Kelly is certainly in a position to know. Regardless, given how people feel about RF and towers these days, it may turn out that "good enough" will have to do.
After Harbor Island became unworkable, KOL and KJR both had their challenges finding a new home. That's the main reason it's always amazed me that stations would sell the land under their towers for any reason... financial or otherwise. But... it seems to be a happening thing these days.
Intelli LLC (860) and Salem (1300) swapped stations. Kind of like swapping you’re running blue 1970 Cadillac with some one that trades you a green 1970 same model Cadillac, that's running. You wouldn't trade your running car for a box of parts or a car with no engine.
I'm have not seen the agreement between Intelli LLC and Salem, so I'm speculating that there is language in the Swap agreement about Salem making 1300 operational before the deal is done. It would make sense that some language to that effect would be in the agreement. Salem may be operating 860 under an LMA until they get 1300 running and the license issued by the FCC so the deal can be completed. Again not sure this is true, does anyone know what the agreement spells out?
If the above is true that would make Salem on the hook to provide Intelli LLC with a running radio station, not the license, C.P. with the rest of the parts in a box. Salem would remain the licensee of 1300 until the license is granted for the operation from Bainbridge. Once Salem has an operational 1300 they can complete and swap license for license with Intelli LLC.
Bainbridge was the site chosen and they filled the C.P. for that location. Working with the neighbors should solve the RFI issues. This is not the first time a radio station has had to deal with RFI from neighbors after firing up from a different site for the first time.
Kelly has been out of the area for a while, doubt that he has been there since GG or even me saw it. As I have said Salem will have to do proofs on 1590 and 1300 to make sure their directional patterns are within the license specifications. The ground system, phasors, diplexer and ATU's all need to be working correctly.
Salem did not own the land where 1300 moved to for a while in Tacoma, they lost the lease and had to move. That's when they started shopping sites and decided on the site they own on Bainbridge. Since Salem owns the land it's unlikely 1300 will have to move again unless Intelli LLC finds a better site and moves on their own.
I'm have not seen the agreement between Intelli LLC and Salem, so I'm speculating that there is language in the Swap agreement about Salem making 1300 operational before the deal is done. It would make sense that some language to that effect would be in the agreement. Salem may be operating 860 under an LMA until they get 1300 running and the license issued by the FCC so the deal can be completed. Again not sure this is true, does anyone know what the agreement spells out?
If the above is true that would make Salem on the hook to provide Intelli LLC with a running radio station, not the license, C.P. with the rest of the parts in a box. Salem would remain the licensee of 1300 until the license is granted for the operation from Bainbridge. Once Salem has an operational 1300 they can complete and swap license for license with Intelli LLC.
Bainbridge was the site chosen and they filled the C.P. for that location. Working with the neighbors should solve the RFI issues. This is not the first time a radio station has had to deal with RFI from neighbors after firing up from a different site for the first time.
Kelly has been out of the area for a while, doubt that he has been there since GG or even me saw it. As I have said Salem will have to do proofs on 1590 and 1300 to make sure their directional patterns are within the license specifications. The ground system, phasors, diplexer and ATU's all need to be working correctly.
Salem did not own the land where 1300 moved to for a while in Tacoma, they lost the lease and had to move. That's when they started shopping sites and decided on the site they own on Bainbridge. Since Salem owns the land it's unlikely 1300 will have to move again unless Intelli LLC finds a better site and moves on their own.
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