Is HD radio here to stay?

[Vincent]

Hi, I'm new here.

I'm thinking about upgrading my Sangean WR-11 and am considering one of Sangean's HD radios. I live in the Philadelphia area and should have access to plenty of HD stations. My question is whether HD radio is here to stay and worth limiting myself to the few radios that have HD reception. If HD radio's future isn't a good bet, there are so many other radios I can buy (like the C.Crane CC Radio-2E Enhanced, or something with a second separate speaker).

Thanks!

 

[KeithE4]

Hi, I'm new here.

I'm thinking about upgrading my Sangean WR-11 and am considering one of Sangean's HD radios. I live in the Philadelphia area and should have access to plenty of HD stations. My question is whether HD radio is here to stay and worth limiting myself to the few radios that have HD reception. If HD radio's future isn't a good bet, there are so many other radios I can buy (like the C.Crane CC Radio-2E Enhanced, or something with a second separate speaker).

Thanks!

I just bought a Sangean HDR-16 radio from Amazon for about $100. I'm located about 25 miles NE of the South Mountain transmitter farm in Phoenix. This radio works great, except for one station (KESZ 99.9) that has trouble locking onto the HD signal. It waffles back and forth between FM and HD, and there are delays and breakups as a result. But it seems to be only on that station, but if you have weak signals this will be a factor.

 

[landtuna]

I just bought a Sangean HDR-16 radio from Amazon for about $100. I'm located about 25 miles NE of the South Mountain transmitter farm in Phoenix. This radio works great, except for one station (KESZ 99.9) that has trouble locking onto the HD signal. It waffles back and forth between FM and HD, and there are delays and breakups as a result. But it seems to be only on that station, but if you have weak signals this will be a factor.

Isn't KEZ an "iHurt" station? If so perhaps they dialed back the pow-pow-power to save some shekels?

 

[DavidEduardo]

Isn't KEZ an "iHurt" station? If so perhaps they dialed back the pow-pow-power to save some shekels?

I am really tired of the juvenile "iHurt" and other pseudo-names for iHeart.

The company has a debt problem cause by signing to privatized just prior to the start of the recession and the start of PPM (reducing CPP based rates by about 40% in the most important iHeart markets).

But they are good and profitable operators. Example: in LA they have 4 of the 4 top billers, and 7 of the top 15 in the market.

And, to reduce power on a sustained basis, an STA from the FCC is required. A station that is tied for #2 in revenue in Phoenix with billings of over $1 million a month is not going to reduce power to save a couple of hundred dollars in electricity.

 

[KeithE4]

Isn't KEZ an "iHurt" station? If so perhaps they dialed back the pow-pow-power to save some shekels?

The point I was making was that a weaker signal may have trouble locking onto the HD signal. I don't see any kind of "HD Disable" switch on the radio, but there is a "Mono Only" function that I may have to try.

It has nothing to do with iHeart or KEZ directly -- just the signal I happen to receive from them on this radio. AFAIK, they're still running 100 kW like the other major stations on the mountain.

 

[tomservo]

It's possible the HD is transmitted from a different antenna that's lower and thus terrain shielded to your location, Keith. I had that problem in the Birmingham market with some of the HD broadcasts in that market. Great analog signals, but in town the HD was in-and-out on some of them as you went behind ridges and other blockages.

To answer the OP's question, HD isn't going anywhere, but neither is taking off as a standalone product. In most markets it's being repurposed to feed analog translators. If you're outside the reach of those analog translators but want to hear one of the formats via a radio, HD is a good investment in my opinion. However the sound quality is poor as most of them are just there for legal purposes and are fed in mono or compressed to death. Or both.

I wish there was a reliable website to point the OP towards to investigate the formats available off-air in Philly on HD subchannels, but the hdradio.com site is just about completely wrong in most markets I know about. They list old formats, stations that are licensed but not broadcasting and subchannels that were probably planned but never launched.

That said, two other use cases are if you like classical music and your NPR affiliate has offloaded music to a subchannel, they're a worthwhile purchase to hear Classical24 or similar. Or, if you're a DXer, some of the HD capable home radios are great DX machines.

 

[boombox4]

On AM, HD may or may not be here to stay. On one hand, it may be he only future AM has. On the other hand, stations are dropping HD AM for various reasons, and by the time the AM band goes all-digital (if that actually ever happens) there may be no more over the air radio....

On FM, asking if HD will go away is probably like someone asking 'if FM Stereo is here to stay' back in the 1960's. It looks like it's here to stay.

 

[landtuna]

I am really tired of the juvenile "iHurt" and other pseudo-names for iHeart.

The company has a debt problem cause by signing to privatized just prior to the start of the recession and the start of PPM (reducing CPP based rates by about 40% in the most important iHeart markets).

But they are good and profitable operators. Example: in LA they have 4 of the 4 top billers, and 7 of the top 15 in the market.

And, to reduce power on a sustained basis, an STA from the FCC is required. A station that is tied for #2 in revenue in Phoenix with billings of over $1 million a month is not going to reduce power to save a couple of hundred dollars in electricity.

Somebody lost their sense of humor.

 

[Kelly A]

On AM, HD may or may not be here to stay. On one hand, it may be he only future AM has. On the other hand, stations are dropping HD AM for various reasons, and by the time the AM band goes all-digital (if that actually ever happens) there may be no more over the air radio....

On FM, asking if HD will go away is probably like someone asking 'if FM Stereo is here to stay' back in the 1960's. It looks like it's here to stay.

The main reason stations are shutting of AM-HD, is purely because the original AM/HD/IBOC exciters are dying. To be more specific, the hard drives in the exciters are dying. That's what happens when you put a PC and hard drive at the transmitter site. The original manufacturers are no longer supporting these original exciters, so stations are opting to shut it off when they've run out of spares.

Since FM does the HD thing differently than AM, equipment for HD is more plentiful and well supported. FM stations also have more options for which form of HD transmission they want to use and the benefit of being to broadcast ancillary channels makes FM-HD much more advantageous.

 

[KeithE4]

The main reason stations are shutting of AM-HD, is purely because the original AM/HD/IBOC exciters are dying. To be more specific, the hard drives in the exciters are dying. That's what happens when you put a PC and hard drive at the transmitter site. The original manufacturers are no longer supporting these original exciters, so stations are opting to shut it off when they've run out of spares.

How much did interference issues play into IBOC's failure? Things like KDKA's digital hash wiping out WBZ in New England at night, and vice-versa in suburban Pittsburgh? KNX's hash was able to wipe out Phoenix's KDUS in much of the Phoenix area.

Since FM does the HD thing differently than AM, equipment for HD is more plentiful and well supported. FM stations also have more options for which form of HD transmission they want to use and the benefit of being to broadcast ancillary channels makes FM-HD much more advantageous.

HD on FM serves a purpose (extra programming, an FM home for AM stations that can't put up a translator), while digital transmissions on the Ancient Modulation band are a non-starter. Digital transmissions require a perfect line-of-sight path, while that's impossible on frequencies below 25 MHz or so, between the ionosphere and static.

 

[vacuum tube]

Answering the original question, YES, as long as it's paired with a decent translator, for the near future anyway.

 

[tomservo]

I'm curious, and forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why did the AM HD exciters require a hard drive? I understand they're basically computers that run Linux or Windows or something, but solid state drives and other forms of memory have been affordable and proven technology for a while now.

 

[CTListener]

Another question: Now that HD (at least on FM) is getting into more and more cars, is there any evidence that people are exploring the "extra stations"? Most HD streams in this part of the country either run formats that are no longer sellable (oldies, classic country, smooth jazz), music-intensive rhythmic and rock formats with zero human input, or relays of in-market or out-of-market talk and sports stations. Will this change as more cars with HD capability are sold and get out on the roads, or will corporate have to see proof that people are actually listening to the limited-appeal programming now on the HD signals?

 

[DaveBayArea]

I'm curious, and forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why did the AM HD exciters require a hard drive? I understand they're basically computers that run Linux or Windows or something, but solid state drives and other forms of memory have been affordable and proven technology for a while now.

The original HD exciters are now about 15 years old. SSD's were still quite costly then, and had problems with multiple writes. Every one I've seen runs Windows XP. Even on FM, the importer in use today by most stations that adopted HD early in the game would have been discarded if it was a desktop PC. The simple fact is that life cycle of a transmitter is way longer than that of a desktop - even an industrial one. In my case, I cloned the hard drive (yes - it's an IDE) and have a spare power supply. Hoping it will last until we replace the transmitter. What can you do?

Dave B.

 

[Kelly A]

How much did interference issues play into IBOC's failure?

I'd estimate about zero. Only a tiny percentage of vocal DX'ers or the occasional small market adjacent station owner was bothered by AM-HD. The reason AM HD didn't move the needle is due to:
1. The spread of HD-capable receivers in vehicles didn't happen until after most of the original AM-HD stations turned it off.
2. There has been zero interest on the part of consumers in AM technical improvements since the 1970's, especially as it involves music on AM. AM Stereo is a prime example from way back in the early 80's.
3. As with point 2; AM has been losing audience since the early 80's. AM-HD is about 30 years too late.

while digital transmissions on the Ancient Modulation band are a non-starter.

I disagree with that statement. Having tested digital-only mode on a couple AM stations, the overall audio quality and signal robustness is pretty impressive. As mentioned above, the timing of technology didn't work out for AM.

Digital transmissions require a perfect line-of-sight path, while that's impossible on frequencies below 25 MHz or so, between the ionosphere and static.

That statement is incorrect. Reception of digitally-modulated transmissions don't require a "perfect" line of site path. Multipath or terrestrial noise can adversely effect reception of a digital stream, but digital streams can be transmitted around terrain just as well as analog. The difference is whether the transmission provides redundant packets or Forward Error Correction techniques.

 

[KeithE4]

How much did interference issues play into IBOC's failure?

I'd estimate about zero. Only a tiny percentage of vocal DX'ers or the occasional small market adjacent station owner was bothered by AM-HD. The reason AM HD didn't move the needle is due to:
1. The spread of HD-capable receivers in vehicles didn't happen until after most of the original AM-HD stations turned it off.
2. There has been zero interest on the part of consumers in AM technical improvements since the 1970's, especially as it involves music on AM. AM Stereo is a prime example from way back in the early 80's.
3. As with point 2; AM has been losing audience since the early 80's. AM-HD is about 30 years too late.

That's all true except for the first part. The company that was having the worst adjacent-channel interference that I remember was not "the occasional small market adjacent station owner." The company was CBS, and it was their own stations that were interfering with each other within their market areas. There were some small-market owners that complained, of course -- in fact, one used to post on this board -- but CBS was a biggie.

while digital transmissions on the Ancient Modulation band are a non-starter.

I disagree with that statement. Having tested digital-only mode on a couple AM stations, the overall audio quality and signal robustness is pretty impressive. As mentioned above, the timing of technology didn't work out for AM.

OK. I wasn't aware of any serious testing of all-digital stations on that band. Has there been any long-term (several months or even years) testing, or is there any planned?

Digital transmissions require a perfect line-of-sight path, while that's impossible on frequencies below 25 MHz or so, between the ionosphere and static.

That statement is incorrect. Reception of digitally-modulated transmissions don't require a "perfect" line of site path. Multipath or terrestrial noise can adversely effect reception of a digital stream, but digital streams can be transmitted around terrain just as well as analog. The difference is whether the transmission provides redundant packets or Forward Error Correction techniques.

I take it these FEC techniques are far superior than what's being used (if any) on digital TV, where multipath kills the signal. But what happens during a lightning storm, better-than-normal propagation, fading, electrical noise, etc?

But overall, you're probably right about the lack of interest. It's putting lipstick on a pig. IMHO, it's best just to leave it analog, and concentrate digital development on the FM band.

 

[Kelly A]

That's all true except for the first part. The company that was having the worst adjacent-channel interference that I remember was not "the occasional small market adjacent station owner." The company was CBS, and it was their own stations that were interfering with each other within their market areas. There were some small-market owners that complained, of course -- in fact, one used to post on this board -- but CBS was a biggie.

A good friend of mine who recently retired as a regional director of engineering on the radio side told me about that issue. Some local managers at CBS groups were concerned about potential interference between CBS markets. The edict from above was in the event of any interference, the corporate office would decide which station had priority. At the end of the day, there were no issues encountered.

OK. I wasn't aware of any serious testing of all-digital stations on that band. Has there been any long-term (several months or even years) testing, or is there any planned?

Yes they did a coordinated round of tests with volunteer AM HD stations around the county. Time flies, but I believe it was about four or five years ago. As expected, the results were better than expected, but the main problem still remained once the technical results were in: What station owner would be willing to go full digital, like tomorrow? Even if there were stations willing to volunteer for full-digital, how long would it take for Commission approval? The answer expectantly was; none. The reality is that AM listening continues to drop, and who wants to throw caution to the wind, making your business un-listenable to what's left of an existing audience?

I take it these FEC techniques are far superior than what's being used (if any) on digital TV, where multipath kills the signal. But what happens during a lightning storm, better-than-normal propagation, fading, electrical noise, etc?

The problem with using FEC for IBOC/HD is the amount of cashing/buffering required. Sending redundant packets means significantly more delay and buffering at the receiver to recover lost packets. Particularly with the limited bandwidth of AM, stations don't want to delay their programming several minutes to account for redundant packets. That was part of the discussion for full-digital AM; one wouldn't have to synchronize the receiver switch from digital to analog, so adding delay for cashing wouldn't be a huge problem as IBOC.

ATSC 3.0 for DTV promises more opportunity for better FEC, especially due to the additional compression and payload size.

But overall, you're probably right about the lack of interest. It's putting lipstick on a pig. IMHO, it's best just to leave it analog, and concentrate digital development on the FM band.

More like putting a jet engine on a 58 VW Beetle. It will get you down the road, but who would care and you'll probably end up dying in the process.

 

[tomservo]

Digital transmissions require a perfect line-of-sight path, while that's impossible on frequencies below 25 MHz or so, between the ionosphere and static.

If that were true, DRM on shortwave would not work. But it does — I've received several broadcasts here in the US from Radio Romania International, as well as the Vatican and WINB in Pennsylvania. Still shooting for Radio New Zealand International, but at 50 kW and beamed to the Pacific it's going to take a miracle for me since I'm in the southeast US.

One way I think AM HD could see growth is if station owners who operate translators on FM for their AMs would pull the trigger and go digital-only on AM. With the translator, the AM side is virtually nil as far as listenership goes. It has to be on per FCC regs, so why not at least jump into the 21st Century? Either way, few will hear it but at least those who can hear AM HD will hear a quality broadcast.

 

[boombox4]

Another option (which undoubtedly won't happen) is for successful AM's with Full Digital intentions to be able to buy a second AM and simulcast -- one station being analog, the other station being fully digital. Probably would not be financially feasible, though.

 

[Kelly A]

Another option (which undoubtedly won't happen) is for successful AM's with Full Digital intentions to be able to buy a second AM and simulcast -- one station being analog, the other station being fully digital. Probably would not be financially feasible, though.

Given all the other ways for consumers to consume aural media, I don't see anyone being interested in acquiring more AM stations to go full-boat digital. That topic has been raised at the NAB and other groups, whether group owners would be willing to flip some of their existing stations should the opportunity present itself. The response has been crickets or a flat 'not-interested'.