Proactive approaches to new music

[andreajesus]

now that you put it that way, Roger - how can i dispute that?? not everyone is Z100...

Andrea

That's why I said they didn't count. I think that, if every CHR had the same (or even similar) options like they do, they could be a idealistically "cutting edge" as everyone wants the format to be. But realistically, we know that's not happening anytime soon.

i'll drink to that... (don't worry, it's just water!! )

Andrea

 

[Adam Rivers]

And again...I ask the question...what is being used to suggest that taking a chance on brand new, unproven music in mass quantities is helping? If you don't have research, and don't use phones...what are you using? Honest question. What are you doing other than simply guessing? What if you're wrong...and how do you know when you are?

It's like throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it sticks, only you have no wall. Or, worse yet, your wall is your ratings, which are 3 months behind. So, you're basing whether something was a hit for you 3 months ago, now that it's already too late, and amongst what could be a lot of other factors (bad in-tab, diary placement, marketing, promotions, etc).

Not picking on you, Adam...just seen this argument a lot of times, and have yet to see a response that offers any answers. The argument states that CHR should be hip and cool, yet you base it on nothing other than one or two programmers (who are 90% likely to NOT even be in the demo) guessing at what they believe will be hits, while hiding behind "well...I know my market." If we can agree on that, then how is that the "cutting edge?" Two non-demo dudes telling their audience what they should like? Sure sounds worse to me than my suggestions.

I can say a few things... all of my powers and B records are proven hits. They all either have 1) research to back up their placement as such (Mediabase National Callout) or are receiving widespread national airplay, if that's not enough - 2) are being played heavily and equally on the panel of 7 stations that are in proximity to mine that I feel are in similar situations as us. You will not see any stiffs or songs that are not widespread hits play above 32-34 times a week.

That being said, any other currents we play, which I see as supplemental records and spin them as such, are things that either: 1) are adult records that fit well with our large listen-at-work audience while being upbeat and still on several other CHRs 2) new music from proven artists 3) balance records, to maintain the straight down the middle approach that I think CHR is best at when it is taken.

When I jumped on Sober by Pink, there was nothing saying it was a hit at all; however, she is a familar core CHR artist and it turned out to be a hit. We play Angels On The Moon by Thriving Ivory.. again, not more then 32x a week, but just recently added it - we might play it, but I didn't jump on it because it's a top 35 or so peak and that's it, and the band is new. We don't, and don't plan on playing anything off the wall. So you can say that there are guesses being made, but they are calculated and not careless.

Playing the hits the majority of the time, using your supplemental records to increase cume and TSL and playing new music BY PROVEN OR FAMILIAR ARTISTS (not off the wall) to be on the cutting edge, is the cutting edge, in my opinion. I can play the same 25 songs that the other 4 CHRs that can be heard in the majority of my market and not set myself apart, or I can be cutting edge and continue to gain ratings and sales. That's what it comes down to, for me.

 

[Mid West Clubber]

Chrles how would you rate my station overall.. We are number one with both Men and Women 18-54 and our adverts love us.. We arent as quick on new music as COMP WNOU Indianapolis, and we dont have the signal or the great air talent and imaging they have, but what we do have that they dont, is we play some songs that are good for us that stiff out for them,, mainly either Dance hits, ALT ROCK Hits, and some Adult Rock like Matchbox 20 for instance, while WNOU tends to be very youth friendly and leans more Rhythmic. We are beating WNOU in Morgan County which is where I live and our signal strength is very similar here, and we are beating CCs KISS Wzkf and Mainlines WDJX in Lawrence County and beating WMGI Mix FM in Owen County,, this means alot to our GM with our little 2300 watt signal.. I have too reallie on phone reaction and gutt instinct as well, but we mainly sell adds just in Bloomington, and have no AC, and no Rock station, only a triple AAA there in Monroe County,, we have this past year started selling CAR ADs and Restaraunts to the surrounding counties outside of our RED Protected Contour, so its all good.... Some of the stations I watch Closely as,,, well I wont list them all, but WBLI on Long Island is one I always have my eye on

 

[Roger That]

I can say a few things... all of my powers and B records are proven hits. They all either have 1) research to back up their placement as such (Mediabase National Callout) or are receiving widespread national airplay, if that's not enough - 2) are being played heavily and equally on the panel of 7 stations that are in proximity to mine that I feel are in similar situations as us. You will not see any stiffs or songs that are not widespread hits play above 32-34 times a week.

That being said, any other currents we play, which I see as supplemental records and spin them as such, are things that either: 1) are adult records that fit well with our large listen-at-work audience while being upbeat and still on several other CHRs 2) new music from proven artists 3) balance records, to maintain the straight down the middle approach that I think CHR is best at when it is taken.

When I jumped on Sober by Pink, there was nothing saying it was a hit at all; however, she is a familar core CHR artist and it turned out to be a hit. We play Angels On The Moon by Thriving Ivory.. again, not more then 32x a week, but just recently added it - we might play it, but I didn't jump on it because it's a top 35 or so peak and that's it, and the band is new. We don't, and don't plan on playing anything off the wall. So you can say that there are guesses being made, but they are calculated and not careless.

Playing the hits the majority of the time, using your supplemental records to increase cume and TSL and playing new music BY PROVEN OR FAMILIAR ARTISTS (not off the wall) to be on the cutting edge, is the cutting edge, in my opinion. I can play the same 25 songs that the other 4 CHRs that can be heard in the majority of my market and not set myself apart, or I can be cutting edge and continue to gain ratings and sales. That's what it comes down to, for me.

Finally. A reasonable, well-thought-out argument that justifies position. I would still nitpick a few things (like total number of currents), but if you're winning with what you're doing, it's obvious that there's a reason. Of course, if you're NOT winning, I'd consider tweaking your philosophy.

That said, many here don't have the same cases to make. Their powers and B's are NOT proven hits; simply "records they've played long enough."

Chrles how would you rate my station overall.. We are number one with both Men and Women 18-54 and our adverts love us.

If you're winning, both in ratings as well as in the ever-elusive sales arena, does it matter?

 

[CHRles]

I like what Adam Rivers wrote, and what Clubber wrote.
Programming the music at a CHR is not rocket science if you're a good PD. As long as you have a vision and proper execution that's what counts. That's why those 40 year old men you criticize are the PDs b/c they know how to properly program. They've seen it all and done it all. Some of the younger PDs also get it, and some of those same young PDs could also be programming an AC or Oldies stations, if they know the format and know the markets.
So really, you don't have to be 18-34 to properly target the CHR demo. Do you think the heads of Toys R Us are a bunch of toddlers? The heads of Coca Cola are all 25? That the owners of Dollar General are poor?

Roger, your philosophy works for you (hopefully), at least right now it might. Who are you to judge If some stations are having luck playing more new music then you? If you think you can take them on then go ahead and buy a station in their market and let's see what you got.

93.3 FLZ Tampa was a new music leader in the 90s at a time when most CHRs were a lot more conservative sounding then they are now. The ratings were simply on fire! They made it work, and guys like Scott Shannon used to praise them as being as the best sounding CHR in the country.
A couple of years after Wild 98.7 (late 90s) came on the scene with a Rhythmic format is when FLZ tried leaning Rhythmic as well (especially at night), but that all changed when sister station Star 95.7 became The Beat, a Hip Hop station. Despite the tweak back to a more balanced sound, FLZ's ratings stayed strong. You can attribute it to strong listenership in mornings with 18-44 year olds, or to FLZ's aggressive street promotions and giveaway, or to the fact that its PD at the time (Jeff Kapugi) knows how to program a CHR musically.

Over in Atlanta Q-100 used to be very Active on new and current hits while under its previous ownership, but once Cumulus got a hold of them the music mix became very conservative. Despite the move to one of the ATL's most powerful signals (99.7 FM), and a great morning show, the ratings didnt drastically improve. Luckily for the Q, they've got a pretty strong showing in the PPMs (which aren't official yet in Atlanta).

Anyways, this thread was started b/c someone on this board, a fan of CHR radio, wanted to know which stations play a good amount of new music. I think we've all done a good job so far of responding, and generating a good discussion on the topic.

 

[Roger That]

Programming the music at a CHR is not rocket science if you're a good PD. As long as you have a vision and proper execution that's what counts. That's why those 40 year old men you criticize are the PDs b/c they know how to properly program. They've seen it all and done it all. Some of the younger PDs also get it, and some of those same young PDs could also be programming an AC or Oldies stations, if they know the format and know the markets.
So really, you don't have to be 18-34 to properly target the CHR demo. Do you think the heads of Toys R Us are a bunch of toddlers? The heads of Coca Cola are all 25? That the owners of Dollar General are poor?

Wow...you sure know how to pervert ones' response, don't you? And talk about giving a lot more credit than is due. There are a LOT more bad PDs out there than there are good ones. If you got the resumes of these people, and saw their programming philosophies to be something in the neighborhood of one or two lines, and who list local record reps as references, you'd know what I mean. Hell...If you were simply IN radio, you'd see how shallow the talent pool has become, over-run with out-of-touch too-scared-to-learn-anything-new PDs, or young PDs that can only boast the experience of being taught by them.

You also missed my point entirely. You don't have to be IN the demo to get what they want. But do you think that Kapugi was the only one involved in making decisions? Of course not. Aside from massive amounts of research, focus groups, et al, he also had people right in the middle of the demo running around the office that had his ear. Jeff is (was?) a great programmer, but it's because he knows how to assemble a team of people that, collectively, are smarter than he is by himself. Data drives the best PDs, and the more they have, the better decisions they can make. Do YOU think that the heads of any of those companies you mentioned do anything less than that? Do you think they sit in their office in some small town thwarting any help from the outside because they "know their market?"

Roger, your philosophy works for you (hopefully), at least right now it might. Who are you to judge If some stations are having luck playing more new music then you? If you think you can take them on then go ahead and buy a station in their market and let's see what you got.

This is pretty rich from someone who's never actually been in radio, much less programmed it. But I digress...

This is such a ridiculously tired argument. Of course I'm not going to buy a radio station just to move to Small Town USA and prove my point. And besides, IF A STATION IS HAVING SUCCESS DOING WHAT THEY'RE DOING, GREAT! Why I would I suggest they change a winning formula? There is no one solution to fit every equation. There is no one philosophy that makes every radio station successful. Or did your selective reading simply miss the post where I also praised Adam for having a well-thought-out plan?

Any "judging" you perceive me doing comes from all the tired justification bad PDs make for why their ratings are bad. I will be the FIRST to say that I don't know everything. But unlike many on this board, I really DO have experience to draw upon. Unfortunately, too many on here can't get past their own egos to ask for help, or do anything other than shoot down real suggestions because they don't fit their archaic philosophy about how radio should be.

Again, I'm going to put this is big ol' capital letters, and even bold it: IF A STATION IS SUCCESSFUL DOING WHAT THEY'RE DOING, WHY CHANGE IT? I am not the one that suggests they do so. But is every CHR referenced here having the same success as Z100? Hardly. It's to those that I'm offering these suggestions. Some of us really do focus on our listeners, not our own personal preferences.

 

[franksandhotdogs]

Roger...you boast how "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", and my station isn't broke even if I'm completely wrong and a total moron who has no clue what the hell CHR is (my GM is pleased with the ratings and sales, which both are up from last year), but if someone doesn't follow conventional rules of radio, you want it "fixed" whether or not it's broken (if it's broke, then it should be fixed).

If you play a song just because you like it, then you're not a good PD/MD, and not playing it because you don't like it is cheating your listeners.  If you play a song because it ties in greatly to something in pop culture that your P1s are attached to, or because you see the phones explode for it or any other number of reasons, then you're a better PD/MD than the one who played a song because they like it.  Seether's "Fake It" was a HUGE hit on my station (one of the most spun tracks of the year), and I still get requests for it.  No, you shouldn't go with phones alone, but if you re-read my last post you would see that Mediabase nat'l callout, a Mediabase panel, national chart, and sales figures are also taken into account.

I'll be in a top 20 market for 3 days so I'll be listening to the stations to think of ways to make my station (overall presentation including music and imaging) in Podunkville better.

PS... Framing Hanley's cover of Lollipop.  Add it (I know there's no reporting in the last 2 weeks of the year).  Even if you didn't play the original.  It probably will burn REALLY fast... but it'll get em listening!

 

[Roger That]

Roger...you boast how "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", and my station isn't broke even if I'm completely wrong and a total moron who has no clue what the hell CHR is (my GM is pleased with the ratings and sales, which both are up from last year), but if someone doesn't follow conventional rules of radio, you want it "fixed" whether or not it's broken (if it's broke, then it should be fixed).

If you're referring to comments made about your "sample hours," why ask for an opinion if all you're going to do is tell people why its wrong? You make that post and give us no background to the station. So, if I have to base my entire assessment on the logs you posted, I stand by my opinions. Not that it matters; you have no interest in criticism.

In addition, this topic is about proactive approaches to new music. Not "my sales people sold a Steve Miller promotion, so I have to play Steve Miller songs now." Hide behind "non-traditional" all you want...that's just bad programming. And I do think your station falls under a category I've referenced in the past: songs become powers simply because they're played long enough...not because there's any real reason for it. How could you possibly known that Seether was a HUGE hit for you? It tested almost nowhere...how was it a hit for you? You can't hide behind other things you say you look at...you BARELY glossed over the idea of looking at research...yet spent an entire paragraph on things like your "hot or not" feature...LOL

The only thing that I think falls under Podunkville is your mentality towards your own market. There aren't small markets...only small market (and small-minded) PDs. If you ever have hopes of furthering your career, and making moves outside of a town your size, instead of only listening to this Top 20 market, consider introducing yourself to the staff...take a tour of the building...ask questions that will offer you answers that can really move the needle on your station. If you want to keep moving, you have to keep learning.

But again, I digress. You obviously have everything figured out ( :). Congratulations on your great ratings, and a GM that loves the job you're doing (if I could sell programming and music selection, I'd love you too!) Why do you keep revisiting the topic? I'm not the one that keeps bringing it up. Do you really think I'll ever change my opinion of how misguided your radio station is?

I don't want to keep talking about your radio station. I'd much rather help people that actually WANT to be helped.

 

[franksandhotdogs]

I don't want to keep talking about your radio station.  I'd much rather help people that actually WANT to be helped.

Sure, I'll take the help if it's available, my point was that you didn't read everything in my last post, so you ASSUMED requests make up 100% of the music decisions here.  They're a part of the decision process, but not the end-all.  And I DON'T think consultants and research are bad, we just don't have them here because it's not feasible in the budget.

And the Steve Miller is only on our Old Skool Lunch crutch, so it's not really hurting ratings...but if it were in let's say PM drive or at night, then it would be a trainwreck (e.g. "Jet Airliner" next to "Live Your Life").  Plus next week is our last week of it.  You brought up the Steve Miller promotion on this thread, not me!

Everyone has their own programming approach and opinions! I'm gonna enjoy the rest of my time in the Twin Cites now.

 

[Adam Rivers]

Finally. A reasonable, well-thought-out argument that justifies position. I would still nitpick a few things (like total number of currents), but if you're winning with what you're doing, it's obvious that there's a reason. Of course, if you're NOT winning, I'd consider tweaking your philosophy.

That said, many here don't have the same cases to make. Their powers and B's are NOT proven hits; simply "records they've played long enough."

If you're winning, both in ratings as well as in the ever-elusive sales arena, does it matter?

We are winning - that's why I know it works for us. There's a difference between a lot of things I see on this board, such as playing Weezer songs that don't even get any spins on CHR as powers, to what we do.

 

[CHRles]

If you were simply IN radio, you'd see how shallow the talent pool has become, over-run with out-of-touch too-scared-to-learn-anything-new PDs, or young PDs that can only boast the experience of being taught by them.

Oh look it's the pot calling the keettle black ;D
Someone needs to hold a mirror in front of this guy when he writes things like "too-scared-to-learn-anything-new PDs.
In general, I wouldnt put much stock into what Roger That posts here. What great CHR is he guiding nowadays? How many other formats has he done? How many stations has helped make a bonafide success story?

For those of you reading this in smaller markets, don't let his fear tactics of "listen to me or you'll stay in this market forever" mentality fool you. He's not trying to help you, nor is he trying to help the format as a whole. He also doesnt realize that when he openly criticizes other stations (which they welcome), people may actually (gasp!) rebuttal some of his accusations.

 

[franksandhotdogs]

We are winning - that's why I know it works for us. There's a difference between a lot of things I see on this board, such as playing Weezer songs that don't even get any spins on CHR as powers, to what we do.

We kicked "Pork and Beans" to the curb in August (it was never in power)...and yes, I98 sounds solid.

 

[Roger That]

Oh look it's the pot calling the keettle black ;D
Someone needs to hold a mirror in front of this guy when he writes things like "too-scared-to-learn-anything-new PDs.
In general, I wouldnt put much stock into what Roger That posts here. What great CHR is he guiding nowadays? How many other formats has he done? How many stations has helped make a bonafide success story?

For those of you reading this in smaller markets, don't let his fear tactics of "listen to me or you'll stay in this market forever" mentality fool you. He's not trying to help you, nor is he trying to help the format as a whole. He also doesnt realize that when he openly criticizes other stations (which they welcome), people may actually (gasp!) rebuttal some of his accusations.

CHRles...if you had a real rebuttal to anything I've said, this would be a much more interesting discussion. Other than your lack of experience (as in, none), I have no interest in attacking you as a person. Where's your argument? What are you rebutting?

The joy of the Internet is anonymity. It allows one to speak more freely, and I, like many, use a place like this to voice his/her opinions. And obviously, unless I'm Tom Poleman or John Ivey, you'll find just as many reasons to think I'm bad at what I do, so they might as well be because you think I have no idea what I'm talking about. I may not have a David-Eduardo-length resume, but I feel comfortable speaking to my experience.

I actually enjoy the back-and-forth, and take none of this personally. Unfortunately, I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. Adam Rivers approaches his station differently than I approach mine. And what I respect is his well-thought-out argument, to which I gave him kudos in a previous post. Guess you missed that one, again. Point, counter-point, resolution. I have no problem with that. I WELCOME rebuttal...only my interest in yours has waned.

I wouldn't expect you to put much stock in what I say. Having never been in radio (which is correct, yes? You've never suggested otherwise, even when asked, as evidenced in yet another response. I don't want to suggest something about you that's not true), it's tough to really see what we see on a daily basis. You can't even concede that?

I've never said that anyone needs to listen to me, and I'm not sure why you always try to make it about me. I'm more interested in what the audience wants. What scares me to death is smaller market folks seeing your vast number of posts and actually thinking you're an authority on the subject. I'm sorry, CHRles, but I just don't have an interest in someone who offers only idealistic perspective. There has to be some realistic influence eventually, and that comes from real experience.

And just out of curiosity, if my aim isn't to help, either a station or the industry, what do you suggest my end-game is? People ask questions, interested in thoughts an opinions (as was the case when this thread started), and I offer mine. Yes, I challenge a lot of what I deem to be bad thinking, but I'm interested in people getting out of their offices and cubicles and thinking for themselves. Yes, I'm bull-headed when I believe something to be right. But don't mistake arrogance for lack of actual insight. You don't have to listen to anything I say...but I hope it won't keep your ears from staying open. Challenge everything...it's the only way you grow.

I don't have all the answers. But does that mean I'm not allowed to question?

 

[franksandhotdogs]

Roger and Rivers take different approaches to their stations than I do.  So do Jan Jeffries and Rob Morris.  I respect that because they work in their situations.  I know for a fact I'd be taken more seriously if some of y'all didn't know what station I work at.  It's guilt by association, however I'm not going to jump off a bridge, because it's just the internet.

 

[spokanesmainstreamdj]

I Think KSAS 103.3 Kiss Fm Boise, Idaho Does A Great Job At Playin New Music.
So Does 94.5 VFX KVFX Salt Lake City, Utah