• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

HD Translators

C

Chuck

I notice that Armstrong is showing a new HD translator at NAB. I can see how that may be a very useful product, especially in the non-com radio area. Lots of NPR, PRI and college stations use translators extensively, as do the religious broadcasters.

I'm wondering how useful they will actually be. Any ideas or wild guesses? Since the digital signal is 20 db down from the analog that means a 250-watt translator could have a 2.5 watt digital signal. That might be enough for building penetration in the immediate area of the translator, but I don't see how such a weak signal can get through the usual steel and concrete buildings we all know and love.

Unfortunately 2.5 watts is the most a translator can use. Many successful analog translators are well under 100 watts ERP. Many are a LOT less than that. I'm personally familiar with one that is 45 watts. It does an amazing job for such flea power, but I have a hard time thinking that 0.45 watts of digital signal will be worthwhile. Then again, maybe not. Cell phones work at about 1/3 watt, but usually they are not very far from the cell tower.

It seems to me that a HD signal with a mile or so coverage area is next to useless. Or am I missing something?

For that matter, is there a minimum signal strength allowed for a HD signal? That might be helpful, but I can guess what interference problems it might create.


<P ID="signature">______________
Chuck
www.kzqx.com
</P>
 
> Unfortunately 2.5 watts is the most a translator can use.
> Many successful analog translators are well under 100 watts
> ERP. Many are a LOT less than that. I'm personally
> familiar with one that is 45 watts. It does an amazing job
> for such flea power, but I have a hard time thinking that
> 0.45 watts of digital signal will be worthwhile. Then
> again, maybe not. Cell phones work at about 1/3 watt, but
> usually they are not very far from the cell tower.

Many translators I deal with are 10 watts or less. High up on a mountain, but low power. Analog coverage is good from these, for the most part. It remains to be seen what HD coverage would be like, but it is likely that the same ratio as the main station contours will happen.

> It seems to me that a HD signal with a mile or so coverage
> area is next to useless. Or am I missing something?

For what it is worth, KPCC Pasadena (600 watts on Mt. Wilson) has 6 watts HD. It covers most of the Southern California market, and the LA metro for sure.

So YMMV.
 
> > Unfortunately 2.5 watts is the most a translator can use.
>
> > Many successful analog translators are well under 100
> watts
> > ERP. Many are a LOT less than that. I'm personally
> > familiar with one that is 45 watts. It does an amazing
> job
> > for such flea power, but I have a hard time thinking that
> > 0.45 watts of digital signal will be worthwhile. Then
> > again, maybe not. Cell phones work at about 1/3 watt, but
>
> > usually they are not very far from the cell tower.
>
> Many translators I deal with are 10 watts or less. High up
> on a mountain, but low power. Analog coverage is good from
> these, for the most part. It remains to be seen what HD
> coverage would be like, but it is likely that the same ratio
> as the main station contours will happen.
>
> > It seems to me that a HD signal with a mile or so coverage
>
> > area is next to useless. Or am I missing something?
>
> For what it is worth, KPCC Pasadena (600 watts on Mt.
> Wilson) has 6 watts HD. It covers most of the Southern
> California market, and the LA metro for sure.
>
> So YMMV.
>

I've noticed one translator with IBOC so far. 104.3 W282AB Dover, NH. The Translator runs 13 watts, but it is up high, and the analog signal covers well. I have no idea how far the IBOC signal goes.
 
> > For what it is worth, KPCC Pasadena (600 watts on Mt.
> > Wilson) has 6 watts HD. It covers most of the Southern
> > California market, and the LA metro for sure.
>snip>
> I've noticed one translator with IBOC so far. 104.3 W282AB
> Dover, NH. The Translator runs 13 watts, but it is up high,
> and the analog signal covers well. I have no idea how far
> the IBOC signal goes.
>

I've heard about the KPCC "6 watt giant," but 6 watts of analog would also go a long way line of site to outdoor (car receivers). The trick is getting it to work inside a building on a radio that an average consumer is likely to use. Not too many folks feel like putting a Yagi on their roof, although I'm sure some of the early adopter audiophiles will. <P ID="signature">______________
Chuck
www.kzqx.com
</P>
 
Audiophiles are not likely to be embracing IBOC. The fidelity is quite lacking. Just like satellite radio. You know the sad thing is that I dont think anyone under 30 has ever heard High Fidelity audio. FM sure is not it, over compressed CD's are not it either.



> > > For what it is worth, KPCC Pasadena (600 watts on Mt.
> > > Wilson) has 6 watts HD. It covers most of the Southern
> > > California market, and the LA metro for sure.
> >snip>
> > I've noticed one translator with IBOC so far. 104.3 W282AB
>
> > Dover, NH. The Translator runs 13 watts, but it is up
> high,
> > and the analog signal covers well. I have no idea how far
> > the IBOC signal goes.
> >
>
> I've heard about the KPCC "6 watt giant," but 6 watts of
> analog would also go a long way line of site to outdoor (car
> receivers). The trick is getting it to work inside a
> building on a radio that an average consumer is likely to
> use. Not too many folks feel like putting a Yagi on their
> roof, although I'm sure some of the early adopter
> audiophiles will.
>
 
> ...I dont think anyone under 30 has ever heard High Fidelity audio.
> FM sure is not it, over compressed CD's are not it either.

You are looking for a live acoustic concert: no amps, no speakers, and topnotch instruments.<P ID="signature">______________
Proud 2 B a pioneering satellite radio subs¢riber
Ai4i is always on the trailing edge of technology
______________</P>
 
> You know the sad thing is that I dont think anyone under 30 has
> ever heard High Fidelity audio. FM sure is not it, over
> compressed CD's are not it either.

I suspect you are right. I spent over 30 years in the live sound industry, As I graduated to the status of "old fart," I was amazed at how little upcoming engineers understood the basics of audio and acoustics . I doubt that more than a handful of them had ever heard music without amplification and processing. It is very hard to make an instrument sound good, if you have no idea what it is supposed to sound like to begin with.

I'm also quite sure most of these same folks had never heard a real quality high fidelity sound system in a good acoustical environment. That's sad really.

Today, the "cure" for bad sound is to dump more digital processing on it. I guess that explains a lot.
<P ID="signature">______________
Chuck
www.kzqx.com
</P>
 
> > You know the sad thing is that I dont think anyone under
> 30 has
> > ever heard High Fidelity audio. FM sure is not it, over
> > compressed CD's are not it either.
>
> I suspect you are right. I spent over 30 years in the live
> sound industry, As I graduated to the status of "old fart,"
> I was amazed at how little upcoming engineers understood the
> basics of audio and acoustics . I doubt that more than a
> handful of them had ever heard music without amplification
> and processing. It is very hard to make an instrument sound
> good, if you have no idea what it is supposed to sound like
> to begin with.
>
> I'm also quite sure most of these same folks had never heard
> a real quality high fidelity sound system in a good
> acoustical environment. That's sad really.
>
> Today, the "cure" for bad sound is to dump more digital
> processing on it. I guess that explains a lot.
>


maybe they think if it distorts you can't tell how bad it sounds
"i have my mask on you can't see me now i'm invisible!"
i try to school a younger DJ friend of mine on what quality audio is. i think somewhere in the genepool over the years a line of bad ears has taken over. Kids today settle for crap because it comes with a flashy name, a cool package, or because peggy sue or bobby joe has one.
 
Good sound for the young 'uns! (Re: HD Translators)

> maybe they think if it distorts you can't tell how bad it
> sounds
> "i have my mask on you can't see me now i'm invisible!"
> i try to school a younger DJ friend of mine on what quality
> audio is. i think somewhere in the genepool over the years a
> line of bad ears has taken over. Kids today settle for crap
> because it comes with a flashy name, a cool package, or
> because peggy sue or bobby joe has one.

Let your younger DJ friend hear an Empire or BSR LP turntable (or a Revox 1/2" reel-to-reel tape deck) played through a good tube amp (Lafayette, Peavey, etc.) into a set of Altec speakers or a Leslie tone cabinet (used with Hammond electric organs).

A late audiophile friend of mine once conducted such a demonstration for me using an Empire turntable, Revox tape deck, and Sony home CD player played in turn through a Lafayette tube amp and a pair of Leslie tone cabinets.

The CD player fell flat on its face before the turntable and tape deck. The richness, warmth, and range of the turntable and tape deck made the CD player sound like a 1960s-vintage child's phonograph by comparison. -- Jason
 
Re: Good sound for the young 'uns! (Re: HD Translators)

> > maybe they think if it distorts you can't tell how bad it
> > sounds
> > "i have my mask on you can't see me now i'm invisible!"
> > i try to school a younger DJ friend of mine on what
> quality
> > audio is. i think somewhere in the genepool over the years
> a
> > line of bad ears has taken over. Kids today settle for
> crap
> > because it comes with a flashy name, a cool package, or
> > because peggy sue or bobby joe has one.
>
> Let your younger DJ friend hear an Empire or BSR LP
> turntable (or a Revox 1/2" reel-to-reel tape deck) played
> through a good tube amp (Lafayette, Peavey, etc.) into a set
> of Altec speakers or a Leslie tone cabinet (used with
> Hammond electric organs).
>
> A late audiophile friend of mine once conducted such a
> demonstration for me using an Empire turntable, Revox tape
> deck, and Sony home CD player played in turn through a
> Lafayette tube amp and a pair of Leslie tone cabinets.
>
> The CD player fell flat on its face before the turntable and
> tape deck. The richness, warmth, and range of the turntable
> and tape deck made the CD player sound like a 1960s-vintage
> child's phonograph by comparison. -- Jason
>


i gave up recently when he sent me a mix set telling me it sounded really good that he was happy with the quality.

i have decided he must be nearly deaf.

i'm the one who should have hearing damage but it seems i'm doing okay...
 
Re: Good sound for the young 'uns! (Re: HD Translators)

Have you worn headphones during your broadcasting career? If you haven't and he has, he could very well have more hearing damage than you.

The talk host Michael Savage has always refused to wear headphones for this reason. He had his engineer design a directional speaker and microphone system that lets him talk with his callers without wearing headphones and without getting speaker audio feedback into the microphone. -- Jason

> > > maybe they think if it distorts you can't tell how bad
> it
> > > sounds
> > > "i have my mask on you can't see me now i'm invisible!"
> > > i try to school a younger DJ friend of mine on what
> > quality
> > > audio is. i think somewhere in the genepool over the
> years
> > a
> > > line of bad ears has taken over. Kids today settle for
> > crap
> > > because it comes with a flashy name, a cool package, or
> > > because peggy sue or bobby joe has one.
> >
> > Let your younger DJ friend hear an Empire or BSR LP
> > turntable (or a Revox 1/2" reel-to-reel tape deck) played
> > through a good tube amp (Lafayette, Peavey, etc.) into a
> set
> > of Altec speakers or a Leslie tone cabinet (used with
> > Hammond electric organs).
> >
> > A late audiophile friend of mine once conducted such a
> > demonstration for me using an Empire turntable, Revox tape
>
> > deck, and Sony home CD player played in turn through a
> > Lafayette tube amp and a pair of Leslie tone cabinets.
> >
> > The CD player fell flat on its face before the turntable
> and
> > tape deck. The richness, warmth, and range of the
> turntable
> > and tape deck made the CD player sound like a
> 1960s-vintage
> > child's phonograph by comparison. -- Jason
> >
>
>
> i gave up recently when he sent me a mix set telling me it
> sounded really good that he was happy with the quality.
>
> i have decided he must be nearly deaf.
>
> i'm the one who should have hearing damage but it seems i'm
> doing okay...
>
 
Re: Good sound for the young 'uns! (Re: HD Translators)

> Have you worn headphones during your broadcasting career?
> If you haven't and he has, he could very well have more
> hearing damage than you.
>
> The talk host Michael Savage has always refused to wear
> headphones for this reason. He had his engineer design a
> directional speaker and microphone system that lets him talk
> with his callers without wearing headphones and without
> getting speaker audio feedback into the microphone. --
> Jason
>

yes hours a day for years
and many years of clubbing and going to raves and parties
he's much younger and no way he could have racked up the wear i have on my ears
some ears just dont work well i have decided
i'm lucky mine still do


> > > > maybe they think if it distorts you can't tell how bad
>
> > it
> > > > sounds
> > > > "i have my mask on you can't see me now i'm
> invisible!"
> > > > i try to school a younger DJ friend of mine on what
> > > quality
> > > > audio is. i think somewhere in the genepool over the
> > years
> > > a
> > > > line of bad ears has taken over. Kids today settle
> for
> > > crap
> > > > because it comes with a flashy name, a cool package,
> or
> > > > because peggy sue or bobby joe has one.
> > >
> > > Let your younger DJ friend hear an Empire or BSR LP
> > > turntable (or a Revox 1/2" reel-to-reel tape deck)
> played
> > > through a good tube amp (Lafayette, Peavey, etc.) into a
>
> > set
> > > of Altec speakers or a Leslie tone cabinet (used with
> > > Hammond electric organs).
> > >
> > > A late audiophile friend of mine once conducted such a
> > > demonstration for me using an Empire turntable, Revox
> tape
> >
> > > deck, and Sony home CD player played in turn through a
> > > Lafayette tube amp and a pair of Leslie tone cabinets.
> > >
> > > The CD player fell flat on its face before the turntable
>
> > and
> > > tape deck. The richness, warmth, and range of the
> > turntable
> > > and tape deck made the CD player sound like a
> > 1960s-vintage
> > > child's phonograph by comparison. -- Jason
> > >
> >
> >
> > i gave up recently when he sent me a mix set telling me it
>
> > sounded really good that he was happy with the quality.
> >
> > i have decided he must be nearly deaf.
> >
> > i'm the one who should have hearing damage but it seems
> i'm
> > doing okay...
> >
>
 
Re: Good sound for the young 'uns! (Re: HD Translators)

> yes hours a day for years
> and many years of clubbing and going to raves and parties
> he's much younger and no way he could have racked up the
> wear i have on my ears
> some ears just dont work well i have decided
> i'm lucky mine still do

Although your hearing is most likely not as good as it was when you were a teenager, it is quite likely that still can identify good audio when you hear it. That's because you LEARNED TO LISTEN. (Sorry about shouting, I just came from the ear Doctor today - really). Your brain has learned to compensate for what you've lost in sensitivity at certain frequencies. Your years and years of experience have simply taught you how to listen and what to listen for. That takes practice. It seems to be is a lost art these days.

Since music, and music appreciation is no longer in fashion in today's schools, fewer and fewer kids are being exposed to anything that would allow them to learn to appreciate quality when they hear it. How are you supposed to know what a French Horn is supposed to sound like if you’ve never heard one? Sure, some kids do have a natural talent, but unless it is nurtured and developed, they will think a 32 kbs mp3 sounds great.

Besides, most of the “engineers" I’ve met recently in the sound business think that all the red lights staying on mean that the device in question is working....
<P ID="signature">______________
Chuck
www.kzqx.com
</P>
 
Re: Good sound for the young 'uns! (Re: HD Translators)

> Besides, most of the “engineers" I’ve met recently in the
> sound business think that all the red lights staying on mean
> that the device in question is working....

Ah, the "meter readers" who think readings and indicator lights are all that matter...who would see a 1:1 SWR ratio and assume that an antenna is radiating at peak efficiency (that's usually the case, but not always--a dummy load shows 1:1 SWR too, as can a very lossy antenna). -- Jason
 
> I've noticed one translator with IBOC so far. 104.3 W282AB
> Dover, NH. The Translator runs 13 watts, but it is up high,
> and the analog signal covers well. I have no idea how far
> the IBOC signal goes.
>


I've been told its unintentional, the reciever used just happens to be a bit "wide" and picks up some of the digits. The IBOC doesn't go far at all, I can't even get the call letters to show up when I'm in that town.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.
Back
Top Bottom