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hate speech

F

froggiey98

Guest
well that 4 letter word should be protected under the 1st ammendment . Saying the s word isn't hate speech. I DON'T LIke the s word but should we regulate what people say?, no to a point If rush said " I hate blacks and then hurt a black person that's when the f.c.c should act
 
> well that 4 letter word should be protected under the 1st
> ammendment . Saying the s word isn't hate speech. I DON'T
> LIke the s word but should we regulate what people say?, no
> to a point If rush said " I hate blacks and then hurt a
> black person that's when the f.c.c should act

Please tell us all how "hate speech" differs from "thought crime".
<P ID="signature">______________
When you're done impeaching the prez, keep on going; recall every member of congress and lock 'em up! Let's try NO govt. for a while.</P>
 
> > well that 4 letter word should be protected under the 1st
> > ammendment . Saying the s word isn't hate speech. I
> DON'T
> > LIke the s word but should we regulate what people say?,
> no
> > to a point If rush said " I hate blacks and then hurt a
> > black person that's when the f.c.c should act
>
> Please tell us all how "hate speech" differs from "thought
> crime".
>


I would submit to froggie that all speech is protected under the 1st amendment. The 1st amendment guarantees the right to say whatever you choose, but it does not indemnify anyone from the consequences of saying it. I would refer you to the supreme court decision on fighting words, which would legally indemnify a black person for hurting Rush, or anyone else should he/they say something like the notion you put forth. Given that, I would suggest the FCC has a responsibility to act early in setting reasonable groundrules on speech distributed on PUBLIC airwaves. It is not that all must agree with the speech, rather that potential offense must be minimized for the greater good of all, rather than the individual liberty of one. If someone must use the S word or any other potentially offensive language, then let them go to XM or Sirius where those who wish to hear it can pay to do so.
 
Content based censorship itself, whether done by illegal government actions or for commercial reasons pandering to institutionalized bigotry, is generally an incredibly insidious form of hate speech. It demeans the beliefs, identity, ideology, or similar aspects of an individual or demographic, while the censor hides like a coward behind the expression not openly presented as disappeared into the night as if seized by Chinese secret police. Controversial speech can be challenged with more speech, but a black whole merely sends a message that its attempted speaker is less than fully human. Such censorship does not protect any "public good". Instead, it is commercially convenient to unethical media whores, as it narrows and focuses the targets of marketing efforts. However, it can cause serious physical revulsion in the deep muscles of persons or members of groups told by devious denial of equal access to public resources that they don't qualify as real humans, entitled to equal protections for use of the airwaves just as they are to use the school, the park, and the sidewalk, or the same bus seats, lunch counters, and water fountains as any neighbor. It's because the public airwaves are just that, public, that they demand the same rights of equal access as any other public facility. In fact, it would be entirely reasonable for broadcast licensees to be fined, and licenses revoked, for failure to offer the same forms of equal access required of employers and "public accommodations", not government endorsed discrimination pandering to tyrannical religious hate cults and mobs of commercial interests which don't care about those biases, but find them convenient for financial reasons. There are two functional psychological reasons why censorship is favored by persons whose life skills are less than adequate or whose religious paths are defective, relative to the realities of our vastly diverse society. Diverse society inherently has a large degree of chaos, which is difficult for some personality types, and moreso for persons with certain psych disorders. That's a challenge for them to resolve as individuals, even if it means hiding in a gated private community, and is not an excuse to impose a medical disorder on all others. Some supremacist hate cults brey how they're the one and only of however many such one and only right way hate cults. It triggers serious cognitive dissonance and dysphoria in kids abused by such cults, often including as adults as well, to witness others with outward signs of values and life practices their arrogant, pathological ideologies declare to be incompatible with happy, healthy, or functional lifestyles. That's not because of any harm caused by a naturist on Main Street or seen on TV, or use of any particular words or cultural mannerisms, or religious rituals including visible sex on the beach at the merger of natural elements, but rather a conflict of fraudulent indoctrination and deprivation of basic life skills to cope with predictable issues of diversity and equal rights protections. In that context, even if it weren't grossly illegal, it's for all practical purposes impossible to oppress other supremacist hate cultists into one supposed exclusive lifestyle, before considering the far greater number of minorities demanding only protections to live as they choose, but not to coerce choices on others. In those cases, it's the parents and churches abusing kids with supremacist dogma at odds with functional realities of diverse society, with whom law should be concerned. The visible existence of different lifestyles and cultures harms no one, even if narrow minded cults do suffer the revelation of the fraud in their dogmas when persons on very different paths are visible living quite well. Beware the Christo-fascists, who have become more of political con artists, than examples of a religion they falsely claim, whose bible actually advises to pray in private, not prey on the public, and which defines its own jurisdiction to be limited, not as an excuse to prey on what it defines as the "other people". Anyone lacking the life skills to exist outside a misguided cult needs medical help dealing with psychiatric abuse issues, just as someone with other identified psych disorders. Our Founding Fathers in drafting the Bill of Rights no doubt were fully aware that some people had psych disorders, and many adopted religions which led them to campaigns of genocides and armed battles between Baptists and Anglicans, or states formed from feuds among Congregationalists, Methodists, and other sects. They didn't say Establishment neutrality or Free Exercise applied, except to select groups to be denied those rights (other than since changed "Indians not taxed"). The public arena demands not prejudices endorsed by law to favor the largest unruly mob with torches, but use of law to prevent exactly that, and protect minorities on a level playing field. It's well documented that hiding kids from reality stunts development, and causes far more harm, than most speech or lifestyle practices some claim they must never see. That includes sexuality in all its flavors, which the highly credentialled members of the now 49 year old Society for the Scientific Study of Sexuality have documented. US courts, and society, are merely delinquent, in how we harm juveniles in the guise of protecting minors. The only thing really at risk are religious frauds, and commercial or institutionalized counterparts, which defective values systems try to squash societal diversity rather than adapt to the functional needs of it. Responsible broadcasters would program content that helps society with that adaptation. Those who don't arguably fail to serve the very public interest, convenience, and necessity, absent which they fail the core legal tests for holding an FCC license for limited private control of a chunk of public commons radio spectrum. Whether in some markets it's convenient or controversial, profitable or risky, to serve those legal obligations, is secondary to the fact that those obligations are the first and foremost condition for having any broadcast license at all.
 
Why not "Hate-Think"?

While we're at it....Orwell thought "Thought Crime" would one day be punishable so, why not now?But would it work only for TV where you might be able to see in someone's eyes that they really are thinking something forbidden?Or could it extend to radio where a discerning person might be able to tell from someone's inflection that they really were thinking forbidden thoughts?YEAH!!!And I wanna be the judge!!!!Now wait a minute, what you just thought in responsse to my desire expressed above is unkind, therefore needs must be punished!
 
Re: Why not "Hate-Think"?

AKLes said:
While we're at it....Orwell thought "Thought Crime" would one day be punishable so, why not now?

It already is.
 
Already is? By whom? When?

State the law, please. Give a citation. (No Alex Jones sites allowed.)
 
Johnny Morgan said:
Already is? By whom? When?

Federal law (I do not know the #) commonly referred to as "Hate Crime Legislation"


State the law, please. Give a citation. (No Alex Jones sites allowed.)

Who is alex jones?
 
How does hate crime legislation punish thoughts? (For the record, I oppose hate crimes on a more legal theory level of unequal application of the laws.)

Alex Jones is a wacky anti-government talk show host whose website is periodically cited on this message board top support the belief that the government lies, that there are secret conspiracies of and among the government's officers, etc. He's sort of like a hard-core Illuminati freak who believes that nothing is what it actually is.

Alex Jones is like, you know, a moron.
 
Johnny Morgan said:
How does hate crime legislation punish thoughts? (For the record, I oppose hate crimes on a more legal theory level of unequal application of the laws.)

It does nothing else. What did it make a crime other than thought and speech?
 
It's not aimed at speech--the hate crime statutes are aimed at intent behind action. In a 2nd degree murder with hate crime specification, the murder exists regardless of the victim's status. The hate crime specification comes into play when proving intent (he had an intent to kill, not only a person, but a black person) and in sentencing. A "hate intent" provides for a higher sentencing base.

Now, what is used to prove the intent to kill a black peron, for example, is prior actions, a habit or propensity for racism, writings, etc. But it is NOT solely thoughts or speech. In fact, you can be convicted of a hate crime if you have been convicted previously of assault and the victim was black, and you rob a predominantly black bank. Not a single form of speech or thought in place there, but there is a pattern of racial crime.

Intent to commit a crime based on the victim's race is abhorent to the rule of law, abhorent to natural law, and morally repugnant, and should be a crime. It probably shouldn't be a sentencing enhancement, however, but that's a separate argument.
 
Intent is thought. So if the intent is illegal the thought is illegal.
 
So, if all intent is thought...what should be a crime?

Should any thoughts be unprosecutable?
 
Johnny Morgan said:
So, if all intent is thought...what should be a crime?

action.

if someone gets death or life without parole for an action, how is tacking on extra time for "illegal thoughts" (intent) serve any purpose?

How do you actually prove intent? I don't mean how to you convince 12 gullible citizens what the actor's intent was, but how do you actually prove intent?
 
how is tacking on extra time for "illegal thoughts" (intent) serve any purpose?

And that is the basis for my problem with it. It's an unequal application of sentencing law--the same act (murder) could get a heightened sentence based solely on the hate intent. The intent was to kill, whether it was black or white (and, especially with second degree murder, the depraved heart applies regardless of race).

Intent is a very important concept in law, unless we want to treat all killing the same: in which case, that accident which sorrowfully and regrettably caused a man to die would land you in prison for the same amount as Joe Killer who popped his landlady with a 9mm. But in the crimes where a hate specification applies, they're all actions that require an already criminal intent--to kill, to harm, to steal, etc.

but how do you actually prove intent?

Very interesting question. There really isn't any way to do it empirically--intent is in a person's mind. But a series or course of action(s) does display, if not a propensity at least a lean towards some action or ill-will towards a person/group of people.

There really is no way to prove intent externally other than by showing a pattern of evidence--sometimes very damning, sometimes circumstantial--that evinces a belief or inner evil on the part of a criminal. We are not that person, so we don't know what he is/was thinking. And he won't tell us--that's his constitutional right.
 
Johnny Morgan said:
how is tacking on extra time for "illegal thoughts" (intent) serve any purpose?

And that is the basis for my problem with it. It's an unequal application of sentencing law--the same act (murder) could get a heightened sentence based solely on the hate intent. The intent was to kill, whether it was black or white (and, especially with second degree murder, the depraved heart applies regardless of race).

My point is that making the "intent" illegal is the same as making the thought illegal. If it doesn't make an action illegal (which was already illegal), then the only thing left is the thoughts.

Intent is a very important concept in law, unless we want to treat all killing the same: in which case, that accident which sorrowfully and regrettably caused a man to die would land you in prison for the same amount as Joe Killer who popped his landlady with a 9mm. But in the crimes where a hate specification applies, they're all actions that require an already criminal intent--to kill, to harm, to steal, etc.

many times circumstances can show a lack of intent, as you stated below, there isnt' a way to prove intent. Your previous question (which I avoided to not taint your response) as to using intent to prosecute. No, intent can not be proven, therefore it should not be prosecutable.

It is all too easy for someone to get into a fight and kill someone without knowing they are some protected minority. If the survivor has a history that the prosecutor can use against them, it makes no difference what the intent is, only what they can convince the jury of.
 
No, intent can not be proven, therefore it should not be prosecutable.

Then we are left with every crime--defined now, without intent, as an action--being of the same caliber. All killing, whether voluntary (murder) or involuntary (manslaughter, accidents) is on the same level. Is that correct, morally or socially? Should a murderer be subject to the same standard as a driver who unwittingly kills someone in a traffic accident on a dark road?

In both cases, the act is killing. One had the intent to kill; the other did not. Yet both will be charged and probably convicted of the same amorphous crime of "killing" (there will be no murder, no manslaughter, no reckless homicide, no negligent homicide). There will just be the crime of "killing",

Is that right?
 
Johnny Morgan said:
No, intent can not be proven, therefore it should not be prosecutable.

Then we are left with every crime--defined now, without intent, as an action--being of the same caliber. All killing, whether voluntary (murder) or involuntary (manslaughter, accidents) is on the same level. Is that correct, morally or socially? Should a murderer be subject to the same standard as a driver who unwittingly kills someone in a traffic accident on a dark road?

In both cases, the act is killing. One had the intent to kill; the other did not. Yet both will be charged and probably convicted of the same amorphous crime of "killing" (there will be no murder, no manslaughter, no reckless homicide, no negligent homicide). There will just be the crime of "killing",

Is that right?

As the practice of law is, it is all symantics. "Porsecution" is the key to this. The intent should not be a prosecutable offence, but lack of can be weighed. there is no way to prove intent (without the intent being stated by the defendant). You might be able to prove the lack of intent.
 
Intent isn't a prosecutable offense--it is, however, an element that must be proven to convict. It is for the defendant's protection, actually. If intent to kill, for example, was removed, all the prosecution would have to show is that defendant actually killed the victim, whether he intended to or not. That is, the defendant caused the death of another. That's pretty easy to show in many cases, and circumstantial evidence is used more for that than anything else.

No one is ever prosecuted for intent to kill only--you have to have an act associated with it, whether it is accomplished or a substantial step taken (attempt) to have a valid prosecution.
 
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