87.9 The Bridge?

[rfburns]

Just noticed WJMF-LP has moved from 87.7 to 87.9 - the liners are even promoting 87.9. This happened once before - I would hope they have checked with their broadcast attorney and have legal permission to broadcast at 87.9

 

[frankberry]

What they are doing is not legal. They licensed as an LP TV station.

 

[Gearshift Gary]

What they are doing is not legal. They licensed as an LP TV station.

Actually, what is being done IS legal. There is more to come but I will leave it there.
The 87.7 to 87.9 thing was done at my suggestion several years ago but wasn't done correctly. Automobile radios are no longer made with the 87.7 position.

 

[frankberry]

This is not a legal operation. I am closing this thread because we do not promote illegal operations.

 

[frankberry]

I stand corrected as explained to me by Scott Fybush.


Hi Frank,

Since I can't respond on a closed thread - just FYI, it actually *is*
legal for a low-power analog TV station on channel 6 to run its audio on
87.9 with 75 kHz deviation.

Why? Because the Part 74 rules that govern LPTV do not incorporate all
of the technical restrictions that are enumerated in Part 73 for
full-power TV. Part 74 stations only have to follow the specific Part 73
rules that are explicitly incorporated in Part 74, and the rules about
audio carrier 5.75 MHz above the bottom of the channel and 25 kHz
deviation aren't among those. Neither is the rule about 10% of visual
power for the aural carrier. So yes, LPTV stations can run at 87.9
instead of 87.75, with 75 kHz deviation and Magnavox FM stereo and more
than 10% of visual power for audio.

It's not correct to call it illegal. It's not.

thanks...

My apologies for my error.

Frank

 

[fybush]

Thanks for posting this, Frank!

 

[frankberry]

Never too old to learn, Scott.

 

[rfburns]

I stand corrected as explained to me by Scott Fybush.


Hi Frank,

Since I can't respond on a closed thread - just FYI, it actually *is*
legal for a low-power analog TV station on channel 6 to run its audio on
87.9 with 75 kHz deviation.

Why? Because the Part 74 rules that govern LPTV do not incorporate all
of the technical restrictions that are enumerated in Part 73 for
full-power TV. Part 74 stations only have to follow the specific Part 73
rules that are explicitly incorporated in Part 74, and the rules about
audio carrier 5.75 MHz above the bottom of the channel and 25 kHz
deviation aren't among those. Neither is the rule about 10% of visual
power for the aural carrier. So yes, LPTV stations can run at 87.9
instead of 87.75, with 75 kHz deviation and Magnavox FM stereo and more
than 10% of visual power for audio.

It's not correct to call it illegal. It's not.

thanks...

My apologies for my error.

Frank

What about spacing requirements? There is a class C FM on 88.1 located less than 90 miles from WJMF-LP. Would part 73 or part 74 rules apply? I'm not trying to create controversy, but it seems like operating ch. 6 LPTV audio on 87.9 is a gray area as far as FCC regs are concerned. 87.9 is actually FM channel 200 (I know... only 2 or 3 facilities are actually licensed)

This isn't the first time I've seen this topic come up and it would be helpful to get a definitive answer from a broadcast attorney or someone from the Commission.

 

[kevtronics]

There have been other channel 6 TV stations that tried moving their audio carrier to 87.9 MHz and got in trouble with the FCC because of it -- for example, WRGB in Schenectady, NY, and WNYZ-LP in NYC, which was caught moving their audio carrier up to 87.88 MHz:

https://www.radiodiscussions.com/showthread.php?519814-Top-40-and-Star-coming-to-WNYZ-LP-(87-9-FM)

 

[Pat3]

There have been other channel 6 TV stations that tried moving their audio carrier to 87.9 MHz and got in trouble with the FCC because of it -- for example, WRGB in Schenectady, NY, and WNYZ-LP in NYC, which was caught moving their audio carrier up to 87.88 MHz:

https://www.radiodiscussions.com/showthread.php?519814-Top-40-and-Star-coming-to-WNYZ-LP-(87-9-FM)

If you tune the station on your television set, will the tv automatically tune to 87.9 for audio? I've noticed that from my location when tuning into 87.7 most of my digital tune radios have trouble with week signals on 87.7, but if I use my portable shortwave radio that can tune to odd numbers I can get much clearer reception if I tune to the actual frequency of 87.75

 

[rfburns]

I suspect all of this will be moot when the repack is completed in 2021 and any analog LPTV stations will have to be turned off.

 

[frankberry]

An analog TV won't find the station at all if there is not a video signal. Even if there was a video signal, the TV couldn't demodulate the 87.9 audio because it's on the wrong frequency.

 

[Pat3]

WJMF actually has a slide broadcast on channel 6 with the stations call letters. with the audio also being heard. I'm not sure if they still have any video since moving to 87.9 since my TV reception is poor on that station. However I have no problem pulling it in on a good quality radio. But not on TV even with an outside antenna before or after the move. strange.

 

[Casual_Observer]

Hey all -

Here is the opinion from an attorney within the FCC's Audio Division:

"LPTV 6 stations are only authorized to transmit an analog television signal, for which (on Channel 6) the FM sound carrier falls on 87.75 MHz. The station is not authorized to transmit anything other than a standard analog television signal. Changing the Channel 6 audio frequency to 87.9 MHz, by any means, is nonstandard and would require FCC authorization before any change could be made. With low power stations moving to digital operation, I doubt such approval would be forthcoming. Nonstandard operation without FCC approval could put the station's license at risk."


--- Casual Observer

 

[Pat3]

Hey all -

Here is the opinion from an attorney within the FCC's Audio Division:

"LPTV 6 stations are only authorized to transmit an analog television signal, for which (on Channel 6) the FM sound carrier falls on 87.75 MHz. The station is not authorized to transmit anything other than a standard analog television signal. Changing the Channel 6 audio frequency to 87.9 MHz, by any means, is nonstandard and would require FCC authorization before any change could be made. With low power stations moving to digital operation, I doubt such approval would be forthcoming. Nonstandard operation without FCC approval could put the station's license at risk."


--- Casual Observer

I just tuned the station 5/11 and it appeared to be on 87.75

 

[fybush]

Hey all -

Here is the opinion from an attorney within the FCC's Audio Division:

"LPTV 6 stations are only authorized to transmit an analog television signal, for which (on Channel 6) the FM sound carrier falls on 87.75 MHz. The station is not authorized to transmit anything other than a standard analog television signal. Changing the Channel 6 audio frequency to 87.9 MHz, by any means, is nonstandard and would require FCC authorization before any change could be made. With low power stations moving to digital operation, I doubt such approval would be forthcoming. Nonstandard operation without FCC approval could put the station's license at risk."


--- Casual Observer

One of the interesting things about the FCC is how siloed some of those divisions are. The Audio Division staffers are fantastic, and their answers are authoritative where the radio rules are concerned. But those aren't the rules that apply to LPTV stations, which are of course regulated by the Video Division, and I'd want to hear from Barbara or one of her deputies for the truly definitive answer from that side.