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Salesforce Tower

R

radiolife3

Regular Participant
Surprised there is nothing topping this 1070 ft. structure as it seems like good line of sight for a lot of the Bay Area. Not sure of the difference from this site compared to Sutro and San Bruno Mountain but looks ideal for both radio and TV (better into the Southbay than Sutro), and for cosmetic reasons would look pretty cool in the Skyline at night. Just 30 feet more would make it the tallest building on the West Coast for those bragging rights against LA's Wilshire Grand.
 
radiolife3 said:
Surprised there is nothing topping this 1070 ft. structure as it seems like good line of sight for a lot of the Bay Area. Not sure of the difference from this site compared to Sutro and San Bruno Mountain but looks ideal for both radio and TV (better into the Southbay than Sutro), and for cosmetic reasons would look pretty cool in the Skyline at night. Just 30 feet more would make it the tallest building on the West Coast for those bragging rights against LA's Wilshire Grand.
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Sutro is just over 1,800 feet above sea level at its top, while the Salesforce building sits pretty near sea level at its base and rises just 1070 feet to the top. I don't think it would be a good site.
 
DavidEduardo said:


Sutro is just over 1,800 feet above sea level at its top, while the Salesforce building sits pretty near sea level at its base and rises just 1070 feet to the top. I don't think it would be a good site.
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If you're looking to service San Francisco and Oakland, it's a great sit. But given the example provided regarding San Jose, I tend to agree with David. Even the top of Mt. San Bruno would be a better option at over 1350 feet above sea level (and further south) for most stations. Would be cool for the skyline to have a spire though. :)
 
stewie said:
If you're looking to service San Francisco and Oakland, it's a great sit. But given the example provided regarding San Jose, I tend to agree with David. Even the top of Mt. San Bruno would be a better option at over 1350 feet above sea level (and further south) for most stations. Would be cool for the skyline to have a spire though. :)
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Important to remember: the San Francisco Nielsen MSA includes Santa Clara County (San Jose). It also includes the Norht Bay and areas all the way up to Santa Rosa. So site location as well as height are very critical.
 
DavidEduardo said:


Important to remember: the San Francisco Nielsen MSA includes Santa Clara County (San Jose). It also includes the Norht Bay and areas all the way up to Santa Rosa. So site location as well as height are very critical.
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I was thinking that perhaps this was in a place where a station could run fairly high power instead of being derated for height above average terrain. That's a hindrance to some stations - so much so that 92.7 tried Sutro (a huge expense) and went back to the apartment building at Green & Leavenworth. But such is not the case. A quick check in the FCC's HAAT calculator shows 323 meters. A typical HAAT for San Bruno is around 350. So not really suitable for FM.

In addition, broadcasters are no longer the prime tenants at RF sites. The wireless providers offer much greater revenue with less power consumption and infrastructure costs. I wouldn't be surprised if there's an area at the top of this building that's built with radomes on all sides specifically to accommodate those who might be ready to lease RF space. And it's not broadcasters who are buying.

I deal with this all of the time when trying to lease tower space. There are still more people listening to the radio than there are using a specific cell site at any given time. The difference is that radio listeners aren't paying $70 per month to the broadcaster like the wireless users. It's a whole different kind of business model, and the broadcasters are increasingly getting squeezed out.

Dave B.
 
You raised a good point about FM's able to run higher power from the SalesForce tower. Yes, its north of San Bruno, but its also east -- and perfectly capable of puttting a strong signal into the South Bay. It should also have much better coverage of Marin and Sonoma than the San Bruno sticks. I would think any sub-10kw San Bruno signal (93.3, 95.7, 102.9, 103.7 and 107.7) might get better overall coverage from Salesforce by raising ERP and lowering HAAT.
 
Signal Geek said:
You raised a good point about FM's able to run higher power from the SalesForce tower. Yes, its north of San Bruno, but its also east -- and perfectly capable of puttting a strong signal into the South Bay. It should also have much better coverage of Marin and Sonoma than the San Bruno sticks. I would think any sub-10kw San Bruno signal (93.3, 95.7, 102.9, 103.7 and 107.7) might get better overall coverage from Salesforce by raising ERP and lowering HAAT.
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Keep in mind that non-grandfathered stations would have to remain conforming Class B facilities from that building... the equivalent of 50 kw at 500 feet. And that is not enough to put a usable signal into most of Santa Clara County. The distance to downtown San Jose is 42 miles, and the 60 dbu of a B is 40 miles. The 70 dbu only extends 20 miles.
 
Kelly A said:
As David correctly says, the age-old rule of VHF still applies: Height= Mite.
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Is AM different? KGO 810 is in Bay mud next to the Dumbarton Bridge. My mother used to listen to KGO at night from the San Fernando Valley.

I'm under the impression that Mt. San Bruno is becoming the preferred site for TV transmitters. That's where KNTV is now.
 
LKellerIII said:
Is AM different? KGO 810 is in Bay mud next to the Dumbarton Bridge. My mother used to listen to KGO at night from the San Fernando Valley.

I'm under the impression that Mt. San Bruno is becoming the preferred site for TV transmitters. That's where KNTV is now.
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I don't see TV being as much of an issue based on Digital ATSC. I know a lot of people still use OTA antennas, but I suspect a large portion of the populuation gets TV from sat of cable providers.

Mt. San Bruno and Beacon (north of the Golden Gate) have always been preferred radio sites to cover the entire Bay Area (for the most part). Since there's plenty of real estate on the mountain top, it's a logical place.

AM propagation is very different. The mud and water actually helps with propagation. There is absolutely no value in KGO or any other AM station being on Mt. San Bruno.
 
LKellerIII said:
Is AM different? KGO 810 is in Bay mud next to the Dumbarton Bridge. My mother used to listen to KGO at night from the San Fernando Valley.
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The best place for an AM is standing in salt water or in a tidal basin. The best for FM is a mountaintop.

AM propagates locally "on the ground", FM by "in-the-air" line of sight.

AM night signals are a different thing entirely.
 
I believe all the frequencies I mentioned are non-grandfathered Class B's (the equivalent of 50kw ERP at 500ft HAAT), so they wouldn't lose any coverage on paper by moving to SalesForce Tower. In other words, they're not quite hitting the South Bay with a Grade A signal now anyway. But by going to higher power at SalesForce (at slightly lower HAAT), since they'd be further east, in the real world they'd probably put a slightly better signal into San Panty-Jose. Sorry, couldn't resist the old Dr. Don name for that city.
 
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Signal Geek said:
I believe all the frequencies I mentioned are non-grandfathered Class B's (the equivalent of 50kw ERP at 500ft HAAT), so they wouldn't lose any coverage on paper by moving to SalesForce Tower. In other words, they're not quite hitting the South Bay with a Grade A signal now anyway. But by going to higher power at SalesForce (at slightly lower HAAT), since they'd be further east, in the real world they'd probably put a slightly better signal into San Panty-Jose. Sorry, couldn't resist the old Dr. Don name for that city.
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The Big 610, huge fan. And when he wasn't calling San Jose "San Panty-Jose" it was Sanaza.
 
Dr. Don also called Sacramento "Sacra-tomato," Fremont became "Flea-mont," and San Rafael was San "Raquel" (with a lot of reverb/echo/excitement added to the Raquel). That's back when Raquel Welch was the big sex symbol.

Apologies to the moderator for going completely off-topic.
 
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