That date was probably also the last time an HD radio was sold nationally, woops I meant Feb 2nd 2007, but do I salute you several stalwarts of this dead technology. Seriously don't you all have something more interesting to do than talk about HD radio? If you like talking about dead and gone technology I can think of some others also that some of you may want to check out such as the "TV Rabbit Ears Forum" or the "New 8 track Tapes Forum" or how about the "New Programs Forum for Windows 1.0"? I bet that one gets a lot of traffic. Back eons ago when HD was a new thing this place was actually interesting and there was a lot of debate here, but I guess now that HD is dead as a door nail we don't have have any debate because we all know how it turned out. Well anyway I just wanted to stop in and say hi!
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Last post 2-2-17
- Thread starter KB1OKL
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tomservo
Walk of Fame Participant
There's really no point in talking about the technology anymore, it's reached a bit of a saturation point as far as new car installs go, and as far as stations adopting the technology go. The ones that have it, use it, and the ones that don't won't be upgrading any time soon unless they can feed a translator with it. At this point I know more people with at least one HD radio in a car or home than I do without. BUT — the number of people I know who no longer listen to terrestrial radio AT ALL outnumber all others.
Every time a thread is started in this forum, it's taken over by a small set of trolls who, having not seen the light of day from their mothers' basements in eons, go into a circle-fest of hate that drives away any attempts at reasonable discussion from non-forum regulars. At this point, I figured some of the haters finally learned the old saying, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" and took it to heart.
Guess not.
If you want to talk HD news, I know of a station with live and local personalities which was just shuffled off to an HD-2/online only combination, WWWL in New Orleans. They pulled the sports & lifestyle talk off 1350 to launch a music format on it with a translator. "3WL" is now exclusively on WWL-HD2 and online. Obviously Entercom saw potential in the combination, or they would have just canned the format completely. So obviously someone is listening.
Here in the Mobile-Pensacola area, iHeart did something nice and put a Christmas Jazz format on WTKX-HD2 for the holidays. It was a nice alternative to the pop-country-Christmas the regular stations carried.
HD radio may not have taken off like the consortium wanted, but the HD2/3 channels are a nice fallback for listeners who can't stream or are out of range of a translator. I live too far from Mobile to hear some of these translator mini-stations, but the HD2s come in fine, at least when iHeart bothers to keep it running that is. I don't blame iBiquity for that, I blame the broadcasters.
Every time a thread is started in this forum, it's taken over by a small set of trolls who, having not seen the light of day from their mothers' basements in eons, go into a circle-fest of hate that drives away any attempts at reasonable discussion from non-forum regulars. At this point, I figured some of the haters finally learned the old saying, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" and took it to heart.
Guess not.
If you want to talk HD news, I know of a station with live and local personalities which was just shuffled off to an HD-2/online only combination, WWWL in New Orleans. They pulled the sports & lifestyle talk off 1350 to launch a music format on it with a translator. "3WL" is now exclusively on WWL-HD2 and online. Obviously Entercom saw potential in the combination, or they would have just canned the format completely. So obviously someone is listening.
Here in the Mobile-Pensacola area, iHeart did something nice and put a Christmas Jazz format on WTKX-HD2 for the holidays. It was a nice alternative to the pop-country-Christmas the regular stations carried.
HD radio may not have taken off like the consortium wanted, but the HD2/3 channels are a nice fallback for listeners who can't stream or are out of range of a translator. I live too far from Mobile to hear some of these translator mini-stations, but the HD2s come in fine, at least when iHeart bothers to keep it running that is. I don't blame iBiquity for that, I blame the broadcasters.
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Hi Bob, good to see you're still around.
I am curious about the date you used. Since the majority of new cars being delivered now come with HD radio reception capability, I wondered if you knew something the world didn't.
Haha! What's up Kelly? When I posted that on 2-20-17 there hadn't been a post since 2-2-17. I do have an observation though: Back in the distant past when HD was new and a hot thing (at least here), we DX'ers were reviled here but the funny thing is that I have had other DX'ers want to buy my Sony XDR-F1HD tuner from me, funny how things go around huh? We DX'ers will probably be the last people to use them for their DX capabilities. Good ones that worked had to be good to pull in those fringe HD signals from more than 20 miles away.
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rbrucecarter5
Guest
I occasionally got HD lock on Dallas station KLUV from my NW Houston location. Using a good outdoor antenna and the XDR-F1HD tuner. I'd say about 50% of the time. I don't know how far it would get HD with just a dipole indoors, but some people report as much as 84 miles with the Sangean that has similar performance. I've personally done 70 mile HD reception with the Sangean and a dipole. Very similar range to what a Pioneer Supertuner 3D would do in a car when it has a real whip antenna.
The technology is usable, but the 10 second dropouts to silence on HD-2 probably make it a no-go with most people. It is darn aggravating even for somebody like me that puts up with less than great reception. Since Houston has gone Spanish language preacher and other miscellaneous foreign stuff crazy on every available translator / LP frequency (Or it seems that way), HD-2 is about the only refuge for marginalized formats like oldies, smooth jazz, classical, dance, indie rock, etc. So HD-2, until HD radio actually catches on with consumers and HD-2's are actually worth something - that is a rare place for marginalized listeners to get the formats we used to enjoy on the radio. The moment HD-2 becomes profitable, it will descend into the pit of more of the same-old stuff on the analog channels and listeners like me will go back exclusively to satellite, streaming, and our own playlists on devices.
I think we DX'ers are (1) about the only people who will actually put up with HD radio reception problems (2) actually understand the technology (3) the only ones willing to put up outdoor antennas in the suburbs to actually receive HD radio on local sticks (4) Buy HD radios in the first place. (5) Even know what HD radio is - most people still mistake it for satellite. The average person like my wife, my daughter, my sister in law, my daughter's friend, etc. etc. etc - the very FIRST time they hear a ten second gap in a song on HD-2, they insist on changing the station to something that works, and they are enemies of a technology from that point forward, because it doesn't work. In their eyes. DX'ers about about HD radio's only friends, aside from investors and station owners led over the cliff like lemmings, and now top proud to admit "the emperor has no clothes".
tomservo
Walk of Fame Participant
I've had some recent experience driving a car with a built-in HD radio and I gotta say, I never once came across any 10 second HD2 dropouts, and those were the channels I listened to almost exclusively during the week I had the car.
Granted, I did not go too far outside my radio market's borders, but still… I don't think it's fair to say your experience is the same everyone has. Maybe in some really hilly terrain HD radio stinks but for most of America, in my experience, it's been pretty decent. I had good reception in LA, in St. Louis, in New Orleans, in Memphis, in Montgomery and all over Mississippi with MPB's HD signals. Here in Darwin's waiting room (Mobile, AL) you get some breakups in the western suburbs of Mobile or over in east Pensacola, but technically Pensacola is a different radio market, so there's no expectation the HD should work there anyway, even if the analog signals are OK.
With a less than ideal setup (an Insignia HD portable inside a moving car) the range is much less but that's not the technology's fault. Even with that gimped setup, I did get over 70 miles on one of our local HD signals, and got 60 miles in St. Louis with few dropouts. I can only imagine a real car radio would perform better.
Where I live, the HD subchannels feed translators, just like everywhere else, but those 99 or 250 watt translators only reach a few miles, while the Mobile radio market is probably 60 miles from end-to-end, and the HD reaches all of that. So they are useful for regular listeners because the range is so much greater.
Granted, I did not go too far outside my radio market's borders, but still… I don't think it's fair to say your experience is the same everyone has. Maybe in some really hilly terrain HD radio stinks but for most of America, in my experience, it's been pretty decent. I had good reception in LA, in St. Louis, in New Orleans, in Memphis, in Montgomery and all over Mississippi with MPB's HD signals. Here in Darwin's waiting room (Mobile, AL) you get some breakups in the western suburbs of Mobile or over in east Pensacola, but technically Pensacola is a different radio market, so there's no expectation the HD should work there anyway, even if the analog signals are OK.
With a less than ideal setup (an Insignia HD portable inside a moving car) the range is much less but that's not the technology's fault. Even with that gimped setup, I did get over 70 miles on one of our local HD signals, and got 60 miles in St. Louis with few dropouts. I can only imagine a real car radio would perform better.
Where I live, the HD subchannels feed translators, just like everywhere else, but those 99 or 250 watt translators only reach a few miles, while the Mobile radio market is probably 60 miles from end-to-end, and the HD reaches all of that. So they are useful for regular listeners because the range is so much greater.
stewie
Star Participant
To your point, I don't have much problems in Sacramento however when I head into the San Francisco Bay Area, the terrain changes considerably and HD2 reception is all over the place. I think it varies wildly by market.
tomservo
Walk of Fame Participant
That is true. Birmingham is a mess for HD, too. But it really doesn't matter since they all seem to feed translators. I think there are ten translators fed by HD signals now in that market. One thing Birmingham and San Francisco seem to have in common is terrain, it's very hilly. But I would think in SF everyone would be on that Sutro tower or a similar mountain top which should make most of the metro line of sight to the antennas. Guess that isn't good enough.
Here is an article from Paul McLane at Radio World about the status of HD radio and ROI, so far. As mentioned, feeding translators has definitely become the majority use: http://www.radioworld.com/columns-and-views/0004/hd-radio-and-the-case-for-roi/338993
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rbrucecarter5
Guest
I find that article glosses over a lot of points. In particular - a statement like this: “You can put your translator antenna on top of someone’s 2,000-foot TV tower, and have a signal that rivals a Class A FM in many smaller markets,” If this were really true, why wouldn't the big stations on the tower "power down" to save on their electric bill? The issue I see is one of building and house penetration. While outdoor line of sight might get the same coverage even with the low power, it just doesn't have any ability to penetrate compared to a 100kW class C, for example. A lot of hype is made about Houston's "super translator" on top of a 2000 foot tower on 95.1. It does respectably well in my car, but get behind an obstruction and I am getting KNDE from College Station instead. The super translator may be a lot closer on a tall tower, but KNDE has a lot more juice behind its signal.
I'm still not convinced that this "FM translator for every AM" idea is going to work. When I look at the coverage map for WBAP http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/patg?id=WBAP-AM, the coverage for its 99.5 HD-2 (assuming the HD-2 coverage equals the analog footprint), I already see a significantly smaller footprint: http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/patg?id=KPLX-FM. Assuming somebody has a really good radio, I've had 70 mile HD reception - but that is under best case scenario with an excellent radio and antenna. 70 miles is still enough to cover their service area, but based on the HD in my daughter's car (stock radio, shark fin, the range is probably closer to 40 miles. Parts of the metroplex go unserved even with HD-2. Now - let's propose that they get their own FM translator on top of a Cedar Hill tower. Probably only about 30 mile range outdoors, no obstructions. Most of the metroplex is not covered, especially the affluent suburbs of Richardson, Plano, Allen McKinney, Frisco, etc. The more likely scenario for most translators is a short stick somewhere, wedged in between existing allocations. Maybe a little ten mile diameter circle. If that happens to be in the downtown area, you serve a lot of people. But in the average population density - put that little 10 mile diameter circle anywhere you like - the vast majority of the metroplex isn't served. HD-2 as the primary reception vehicle for listeners make a lot more sense. The article shows a nice optimistic graph of HD listenership increasing, maybe it is even true. But there are the newer cars coming on the market that ditch HD. My daughter was in an accident, and the repair shop is milking the job. So what, you say? We have had to rent her several rent cars during this period. No HD in 2 out of five - new models, major US auto makers - no HD. But she can pair her bluetooth phone in all of them, the backup camera and GPS is there, Pandora was there in one of them. Satellite in all of them but the subscription wasn't active. A blank spot on the LCD where HD used to be - at least that is my theory. I look for HD when I rent a car here because I listen to HD-2's. two out of five. This is an issue for the HD alliance. What WAS a sure thing in cars is being dumped in cost reducing measures. So that FM signal for big AM's may not be as sure a thing as this article assumes. I also notice one of their examples was Decatur, IL - hardly a large market, definitely a compact market where miserably small translators cover the whole thing. But LA, Dallas, Houston, etc. - vast land areas. HD-2 and translators - won't cover the whole thing.
The biggest indicator that HD-2 is not making it in the consumer market is the lack of commercials, and the presence of unpopular, marginalized formats. If HD radio was really catching on, the HD-2 formats would be more of the same that is on HD-1 and analog. As things stand now, broadcasters can afford to program a niche with a fanatical following to garner some loyalty among its listeners. They can't sell commercials - as David has pointed out advertising agencies don't care about selling to old folks, so oldies goes without commercials. Same with the other niche formats on HD-2. If HD radio really gets popular, those niche formats are GONE in favor of ones that can be monetized.
I'm still not convinced that this "FM translator for every AM" idea is going to work. When I look at the coverage map for WBAP http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/patg?id=WBAP-AM, the coverage for its 99.5 HD-2 (assuming the HD-2 coverage equals the analog footprint), I already see a significantly smaller footprint: http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/patg?id=KPLX-FM. Assuming somebody has a really good radio, I've had 70 mile HD reception - but that is under best case scenario with an excellent radio and antenna. 70 miles is still enough to cover their service area, but based on the HD in my daughter's car (stock radio, shark fin, the range is probably closer to 40 miles. Parts of the metroplex go unserved even with HD-2. Now - let's propose that they get their own FM translator on top of a Cedar Hill tower. Probably only about 30 mile range outdoors, no obstructions. Most of the metroplex is not covered, especially the affluent suburbs of Richardson, Plano, Allen McKinney, Frisco, etc. The more likely scenario for most translators is a short stick somewhere, wedged in between existing allocations. Maybe a little ten mile diameter circle. If that happens to be in the downtown area, you serve a lot of people. But in the average population density - put that little 10 mile diameter circle anywhere you like - the vast majority of the metroplex isn't served. HD-2 as the primary reception vehicle for listeners make a lot more sense. The article shows a nice optimistic graph of HD listenership increasing, maybe it is even true. But there are the newer cars coming on the market that ditch HD. My daughter was in an accident, and the repair shop is milking the job. So what, you say? We have had to rent her several rent cars during this period. No HD in 2 out of five - new models, major US auto makers - no HD. But she can pair her bluetooth phone in all of them, the backup camera and GPS is there, Pandora was there in one of them. Satellite in all of them but the subscription wasn't active. A blank spot on the LCD where HD used to be - at least that is my theory. I look for HD when I rent a car here because I listen to HD-2's. two out of five. This is an issue for the HD alliance. What WAS a sure thing in cars is being dumped in cost reducing measures. So that FM signal for big AM's may not be as sure a thing as this article assumes. I also notice one of their examples was Decatur, IL - hardly a large market, definitely a compact market where miserably small translators cover the whole thing. But LA, Dallas, Houston, etc. - vast land areas. HD-2 and translators - won't cover the whole thing.
The biggest indicator that HD-2 is not making it in the consumer market is the lack of commercials, and the presence of unpopular, marginalized formats. If HD radio was really catching on, the HD-2 formats would be more of the same that is on HD-1 and analog. As things stand now, broadcasters can afford to program a niche with a fanatical following to garner some loyalty among its listeners. They can't sell commercials - as David has pointed out advertising agencies don't care about selling to old folks, so oldies goes without commercials. Same with the other niche formats on HD-2. If HD radio really gets popular, those niche formats are GONE in favor of ones that can be monetized.
Depends on the market. Take a look at Atlanta.
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rbrucecarter5
Guest
What have they got over there on HD-2? I lived there about 28 years ago. Given the terrain - HD reception would be hard out in the suburbs. I need to get back there and take a large loop up on top of Stone Mountain and see what AM I can get. I did WSB daytime in Lubbock, TX with a four foot loop, bad conductivity at the source, great conductivity at receiving location. I wonder about the reverse direction. NO viable Lubbock candidates but TX has some great clears to try. That would give me great conductivity at the source, lousy conductivity at the receiving location. There is nothing technically wrong with WSB, it was my go-to test station when I was in Daytona Beach. Receivable on good radios, if a radio didn't get it - bad radio. So it has plenty of power and reach. Just not in the metro area for some reason. Back to HD-2 - I bet right now you could program a station with nothing but alternate traffic routes to I-85!
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rbrucecarter5
Guest
What have they got over there on HD-2? I lived there about 28 years ago. Given the terrain - HD reception would be hard out in the suburbs. I need to get back there and take a large loop up on top of Stone Mountain and see what AM I can get. I did WSB daytime in Lubbock, TX with a four foot loop, bad conductivity at the source, great conductivity at receiving location. I wonder about the reverse direction. NO viable Lubbock candidates but TX has some great clears to try. That would give me great conductivity at the source, lousy conductivity at the receiving location. There is nothing technically wrong with WSB, it was my go-to test station when I was in Daytona Beach. Receivable on good radios, if a radio didn't get it - bad radio. So it has plenty of power and reach. Just not in the metro area for some reason. Back to HD-2 - I bet right now you could program a station with nothing but alternate traffic routes to I-85!
tomservo
Walk of Fame Participant
I think where the FM translator helps an AM is when it's a small town 1 kW in the graveyard or somewhere where the signal doesn't get out all that well, especially at night. Those stations will probably see the biggest benefit from going to FM with 99 or 250 watts. Pairing one up to a 50,000 watt clear channel is both a waste of spectrum and really selling the AM short. There are some exceptions, but it seems like the biggers AMs eventually get paired with a full power FM. KCBS/KFRC, WBBM/WCFS, WSB/WSBB, WAPI/WZRR, etc.
Until the rules changed recently, I'd say these small stations would only benefit from an FM HD simulcast if it was used to feed a translator that would not qualify under the old AM rules regarding being within 25 miles of the TX site. A full class C HD running higher power is about the only way to be competitive with most "big" AM signals and that's not even close in coverage for some of the really big AM signals out there.
Something that just came across my desk recently was an example of what I expect to happen more and more and AMs get used to being heard on FM: reducing the AM to the bare minimum facility and depending solely on the FM. WGMP "The Gump" in Montgomery just got a CP to drop their big 4 tower daytime array (10 kW) for one that only runs 850 watts through one tower, with 7 watts at night. I'm sure all the listening to this modern rock formatted station is through their 99 watt translator located right in the heart of the city. Hell, the AM has actually been silent for ages because of lightning damage. They had a STA for 4 watts but chances are they never bothered.
I think the best thing that can be done for AMs in mid-size markets like the aforementioned Montgomery is some sort of translator and HD simulcast on a partnered FM.
Until the rules changed recently, I'd say these small stations would only benefit from an FM HD simulcast if it was used to feed a translator that would not qualify under the old AM rules regarding being within 25 miles of the TX site. A full class C HD running higher power is about the only way to be competitive with most "big" AM signals and that's not even close in coverage for some of the really big AM signals out there.
Something that just came across my desk recently was an example of what I expect to happen more and more and AMs get used to being heard on FM: reducing the AM to the bare minimum facility and depending solely on the FM. WGMP "The Gump" in Montgomery just got a CP to drop their big 4 tower daytime array (10 kW) for one that only runs 850 watts through one tower, with 7 watts at night. I'm sure all the listening to this modern rock formatted station is through their 99 watt translator located right in the heart of the city. Hell, the AM has actually been silent for ages because of lightning damage. They had a STA for 4 watts but chances are they never bothered.
I think the best thing that can be done for AMs in mid-size markets like the aforementioned Montgomery is some sort of translator and HD simulcast on a partnered FM.
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rbrucecarter5
Guest
I think a lot of AMs that get translators are hoping that the rules change and they can convert that FM into a full power station. They park on the frequency to grandfather it in, probably file endless requests to upgrade. After all, the FCC ruined the AM band with station glut - so FM owners probably think the FCC will eventually grant their upgrade request - no matter how preposterous it is or how it affects existing stations. If I owned a big AM, or even a little one - I'd take a translator and hope ----
Translator, like LPFM stations, are considered 'secondary services'. They used to be called auxiliary services to a full-power station. Especially in major markets, the band is congested enough, so if (which I doubt) a licensee would so delusional to believe they can upgrade to a full power someday, they should really consider a different career path soon. LPFM stations have been whining about wanting a power upgrade and commercial status, but to date, the Commission won't touch that idea with even your ten foot pole.
The AM band congestion was partially mitigated by increasing the RSS coverage restrictions, carrier bandwidth reduction, and directional antenna systems. The FM broadcast band, has only one of those options, barely.
You don't just take a translator, nor is anyone just given a translator. There has to be an open allocation or an existing FM translator in the area you're looking to serve. There are examples of move-ins by translators purchased from outside a market, but the fact remains, there needs to be allocated space to shoehorn it into the band. Even some big station groups that own Class A facilities, are not having much luck finding a translator. Oh, and you'll need pretty deep pockets too.
Translators, like LPFM stations, are considered 'secondary services'. They used to be called auxiliary services to a full-power station. Especially in major markets, the band is congested enough, so if (which I doubt) a licensee would so delusional to believe they can upgrade to a full power someday, they should really consider a different career path soon. LPFM stations have been whining about wanting a power upgrade and commercial status, but to date, the Commission won't touch that idea with even your ten foot pole.
The AM band congestion was partially mitigated by increasing the RSS coverage restrictions, carrier bandwidth reduction, and directional antenna systems. The FM broadcast band has only one of those options, barely.
You don't just take a translator, nor is anyone just given a translator. There has to be an open allocation or an existing FM translator in the area you're looking to serve. There are examples of move-ins by translators purchased from outside a market, but the fact remains, there needs to be allocated space to shoehorn it into the band. Even some big station groups that own Class A facilities, are not having much luck finding a translator. Oh, and you'll need pretty deep pockets too.
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rbrucecarter5
Guest
I thought I was the only one accidentally double-posting!
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