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The reason AM Radio is dead

M

MisterGort

Less than 40 miles away from Fresno and not being able to hear KYNO 1430 at night. KYNO is a full 5 KW signal. I am hearing KMRB 1430 in San Gabriel better than KYNO. Worse yet - San Gabriel started out as a 1 KW daytimer years after KYNO (KARM AM) was "on the air". There is no protection of any AM station it seems.

I can hear KBRT 740 Costa Mesa ( 190 watts DA Nights ) under KCBS 740 most evenings. And KBRT (KBIG AM) also started out as a daytimer.

Get rid of about 2,000 daytimers and the over 2,000 TIS stations and the AM Band might be listenable again.
 
MisterGort said:
Less than 40 miles away from Fresno and not being able to hear KYNO 1430 at night. KYNO is a full 5 KW signal. I am hearing KMRB 1430 in San Gabriel better than KYNO. Worse yet - San Gabriel started out as a 1 KW daytimer years after KYNO (KARM AM) was "on the air". There is no protection of any AM station it seems.

I can hear KBRT 740 Costa Mesa ( 190 watts DA Nights ) under KCBS 740 most evenings. And KBRT (KBIG AM) also started out as a daytimer.

Get rid of about 2,000 daytimers and the over 2,000 TIS stations and the AM Band might be listenable again.
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The idea behind the Federal Radio Commission in 1927 and then the FCC in 1933 was to serve the "public interest" at three levels: clear channels to fill in where there were no stations, regional channels to serve several counties or trade areas, and local channels intended to serve towns and smaller to medium cities.

That was more than 80 years ago. The idea of urban sprawl was unknown. But the "good" AM facilities ware almost all licensed at least 60 years ago.

1430 in Fresno was a more than adequate signal to serve Fresno in the early 40's when it came into existence as KARM on 1310 with 250 watts. It soon moved up the dial, and after NARBA was 5 kw on 1430.

Noise levels were low, so reception was more than adequate, even with the night directional.

Things have changed. FM developed as the better way to cover larger metros, and with better quality. So, essentially, you are complaining that something designed and built 75 years ago does not work well any more. Hardly surprising.

Similarly, KCBS surpresses its signal towards you because it has to limit its signal in any direction that heads to any part of Canada; 740 is a Canadian clear channel. In other words, you were never supposed to get really great service from it at night even though you are not on the main null. Most KCBS signal goes to the southwest, over the ocean.

Eliminating daytimers won't help.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Similarly, KCBS surpresses its signal towards you because it has to limit its signal in any direction that heads to any part of Canada; 740 is a Canadian clear channel. In other words, you were never supposed to get really great service from it at night even though you are not on the main null. Most KCBS signal goes to the southwest, over the ocean.
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KCBS still puts a decent signal into metro Phoenix, as long as you're far enough away from KIDR's mighty 292 watts, or in a location where you can turn the radio to null it out. I'm listening to KCBS right now as I write this in far-NE Mesa. RadioLocator insists that I shouldn't be hearing them at all. KIDR's "local" plot goes a couple of miles past the 202. Right. ;)
 
Thanks David. Always a good informative reply / post. I have been in broadcasting over 50 years. I disagree very strongly. The noise level would go down if the over 2000 AM Daytime stations and the 2000 low power TIS stations were moved to a new FM band. Cutting 4700 AM stations down to 2700 full time AM stations WILL cut the night time noise level down and make the largest improvement in the AM band. It will not get rid of the electrical noise problems but it WILL improve the AM band enough to make it "listenable" again for local listening.
 
MisterGort said:
Thanks David. Always a good informative reply / post. I have been in broadcasting over 50 years. I disagree very strongly. The noise level would go down if the over 2000 AM Daytime stations and the 2000 low power TIS stations were moved to a new FM band. Cutting 4700 AM stations down to 2700 full time AM stations WILL cut the night time noise level down and make the largest improvement in the AM band. It will not get rid of the electrical noise problems but it WILL improve the AM band enough to make it "listenable" again for local listening.
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I don't see how eliminating daytimers will help night reception. Are you referring to daytimers that have mini-power or micro-power at night?

I've never noted an interference issue from TIS stations. They have such low power, and use antennas that don't favor skywave so it is rare for even DXers to hear them at any distance, if at all.

The biggest issue is man-made noise. While levels of 2 mV/m were good for clear reception 40 to 50 years ago, today it requires 10 mV/m or more in urban environments to overcome noise. That means that stations cover effectively much less than half the area once served well. And inside homes and workplaces, it is sometimes impossible to listen to any local AM station not matter what the power.
 
We can sit here and post to our heart's content, and it won't mean squat. The FCC has made their decision about AM revival, and eliminating stations is part of it. They feel they've done their job, and they're all very proud of themselves.
 
TheBigA said:
We can sit here and post to our heart's content, and it won't mean squat. The FCC has made their decision about AM revival, and eliminating stations is part of it. They feel they've done their job, and they're all very proud of themselves.
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Sort of like Nero and his fiddle?
 
TheBigA said:
Exactly. I feel very sorry for anyone who owns or works at these small AM stations. Very sorry.
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And that is the same sympathy I felt for employees of my local Blockbuster. Or further back, for our family's milkman.

Times change. AM is the VHS of media.
 
The FCC enforcing the rules on directional antennas and night-time power downs would help. I'm certain there's a significant minority of AM stations that:

(a) don't power down at night
(b) have their DA out of tune and are sending their signal the wrong direction
(c) don't go DA at all

Or more than one of these.

On the other hand, it is likely that the FCC can issue NOLAs until they're blue in the face, but it won't do much good except for driving some of these stations out of business.
 
At the very least, those class Ds AMs with FM translators should be encouraged to voluntarily shut down their AM signal at night. Of course, that would need a regulatory change since it's illegal to run the translator when the AM is dark unless the AM has no night-time authority.
 
joebtsflk1 said:
At the very least, those class Ds AMs with FM translators should be encouraged to voluntarily shut down their AM signal at night. Of course, that would need a regulatory change since it's illegal to run the translator when the AM is dark unless the AM has no night-time authority.
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Also, that would not meet the minimum operating schedule requirements for a fulltime station.
 
Deleting 2000 class D - daytimers and 2000 Low power TIS stations would allow the remaining / existing full time stations (about 2,900 stations) to increase power to at least 1 KW full time across the board. The minimum AM power would be 1 KW for any AM station.

Deleting the 2000 class D daytimers and 2000 TIS stations get rid of at least 300,000 nighttime watts across the AM band. It allows for an increase of power, both day and night for all remaining full time AM stations ( About 2900 ) and help solve the AM band noise problem. It would not cure the AM noise problem - but it would help keep almost 3000 existing AM stations "On the air" and listenable in their local coverage areas.
 
I'm standing by my earlier statement: Former daytimer class D AMs w/FM translators should be encouraged to voluntarily shut the AM down at night.

Regarding class D AM operation at night:

73.1740 Minimum operating schedule.
(a) All commercial broadcast stations are required to operate not less than the following minimum hours:

(1) AM and FM stations. Two-thirds of the total hours they are authorized to operate between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m. local time and two-thirds of the total hours they are authorized to operate between 6 p.m. and midnight, local time, each day of the week except Sunday.

(i) Class D stations which have been authorized nighttime operations need comply only with the minimum requirements for operation between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m., local time."

Looked up the regs on time of operation for FM translators, maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it appears there's NOTHING stopping a class D AM from voluntarily shutting down the AM at night while continuing to operate the FM translator 24 hours.

74.1263 Time of operation.
(a) The licensee of an FM translator or booster station is not required to adhere to any regular schedule of operation. However, the licensee of an FM translator or booster station is expected to provide a dependable service to the extent that such is within its control and to avoid unwarranted interruptions to the service provided.

(b) An FM booster or FM translator station rebroadcasting the signal of an AM or FM primary station shall not be permitted to radiate during extended periods when signals of the primary station are not being retransmitted. Notwithstanding the foregoing, FM translators rebroadcasting Class D AM stations may continue to operate during nighttime hours only if the AM station has operated within the last 24 hours."
 
I would like to know exactly where MisterGort is trying to listen to KYNO from. I listen at night often from about 35 or so miles to the south, just fine, a little fade in and out. My problem is that around sunset (I would assume sunrise as well but that is when I sleep) the signal is very noisy anywhere south of Jensen. Other stations coming in loud and clear for moments, then fading. After sunset no problems, I have often thought KYNO could use one of those "critical hours" licences to bump up the power, but the owners don't wanna pay for it. It works fine in town, so no problem? I wonder, how much money is KYNO worth, compared to KFPT, or KCBL? None of these stations hit Visalia and never have.

On a broader point. Yes this is one of the many reasons AM radio is dying. It's not dead yet. FM is dying too. So am I, slowly since I was born.
 
brettbutlerisok said:
I would like to know exactly where MisterGort is trying to listen to KYNO from. I listen at night often from about 35 or so miles to the south, just fine, a little fade in and out. My problem is that around sunset (I would assume sunrise as well but that is when I sleep) the signal is very noisy anywhere south of Jensen. Other stations coming in loud and clear for moments, then fading. After sunset no problems, I have often thought KYNO could use one of those "critical hours" licences to bump up the power, but the owners don't wanna pay for it. It works fine in town, so no problem? I wonder, how much money is KYNO worth, compared to KFPT, or KCBL? None of these stations hit Visalia and never have.

On a broader point. Yes this is one of the many reasons AM radio is dying. It's not dead yet. FM is dying too. So am I, slowly since I was born.
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That is because KFPT and KCBL are sports stations, and I bet the owners feel there are more listeners for those types of formats versus oldies music. It seems to me the sports stations get more respect than talk or music stations.

I also, believe AM radio is more vulnerable to noise. THAT the reason for AM radio dying. I am surprised by now, AM radio has not been improved in terms of sound quality, especially with all of the new technology there is out there these days.
 
DanielBoone said:
I am surprised by now, AM radio has not been improved in terms of sound quality, especially with all of the new technology there is out there these days.
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It depends. In terms of "new technology," there's HD Radio. It attempts to place a digital signal on an analog band. Unfortunately there are bad side effects to the process, and you need a special radio to receive the signal. If fact, all of the solutions to the AM sound quality problem from the station side require the purchase of a new radio. On the receiver side of the problem, all receivers are manufactured outside the United States. Sure they have to conform to US rules, but there are no current US rules that require manufacturers to improve sound quality.
 
DanielBoone said:
That is because KFPT and KCBL are sports stations, and I bet the owners feel there are more listeners for those types of formats versus oldies music. It seems to me the sports stations get more respect than talk or music stations.

I also, believe AM radio is more vulnerable to noise. THAT the reason for AM radio dying. I am surprised by now, AM radio has not been improved in terms of sound quality, especially with all of the new technology there is out there these days.
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Why work on that when hash from so many other sources is allowed to degrade reception in the areas where most potential listeners live and work?
 
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