Documented statistics, quoted in this thread, say that 92% stay. More breaks equal more interruptions, and that's bad for ratings.
Look, if it was bad for business, we wouldn't do it. It's really that simple.
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Too many commercials!
- Thread starter vchimpanzee
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Documented statistics, quoted in this thread, say that 92% stay. More breaks equal more interruptions, and that's bad for ratings.
Look, if it was bad for business, we wouldn't do it. It's really that simple.
landtuna
Walk of Fame Participant
Back to the link referenced earlier by Chimp - that author was also a radio insider and has evidence that differs from yours. I have no dog in this fight so all I was doing is saying that now there is, finally, a radio person who has made a statement very similar to one I had long ago. And for the record, I have stated several times my anecdotal experience says a ton of youngsters hit the pre-set immediately upon hearing a commercial. We seem to agree on that point.
While the data may not be interpreted the reasons certainly can be. Drawing conclusions from raw data can be very tricky and, as always, depends upon which side of an argument you are paid to represent.
"Downward spiral" is not my coined phrase. It was used by the author of the article although I do agree that an industry that is not growing is dying. Even in old world manufacturing (toilets and sinks) there is constant innovation. New designs. New materials. New features. Hardly a month goes by without the announcement by the Japanese of a new toilet with new features.
I am not at all sure how "temper your language" applies. I have attacked no one nor have I questioned anyone's expertise. I have disputed some opinions but isn't that partially what this forum is for? In return, I have been criticized by many because I give anecdotal evidence and, in effect, been told I don't know what I am talking about. Earlier tonight I was threatened with censorship if I didn't stop using a specific description. Just whose language needs to be tempered?
As I have stated earlier I have no dog in this fight. My commercial radio demographic is no longer significant. My former favorite streams have geofenced me and I have little interest in satellite radio. I own no radio or TV stocks. I no longer have any close friends or family in the broadcasting business. I gave up DXing several years ago when the noise floor got too high. I got into radio as a hobby as a young boy, served in a military radio capacity and continue to have an interest - although I have to admit it is dwindling quickly. My only real interest is as a listener and in a pretty narrow format at that. Anything else concerning the radio business is pretty much irrelevant. As each day passes I feel further and further away from any meaningful relationship with the business. Like virtually all of you I have no magic answer to save commercial radio or return it to the glory it once enjoyed although I would hate to see it disappear. For some reason certain people here continue to raise the Pandora example and associate its business model with me. I don't know why since I don't use Pandora or any other like service nor have I ever disagreed with anyone who criticizes their business model.
That's the long and short of it: if it was bad for business, it would not be done. If advertisers didn't get results and if listeners left in droves, it would not be done. Things change all the time and should a day comes the current situation doesn't work, radio station will change what they do, documented with the research to prove the move is what listeners want and produces results for advertisers. If we could figure out how to get that 8% without losing needed revenue we'd do it.
landtuna
Walk of Fame Participant
We're talking about music radio other than classical, right?
Is that 92% figure coming from a market with 2-3-4 similar formats or from a market with only 1? It makes a difference. If you know from experience your choice of music is available only on one station it makes no sense to hit the pre-set. OTOH, if you have choices or more than one favorite format, why not hit the pre-set and see if something you like is playing on another station?
Back in the old days most major markets had more than one CHR outlet and listeners would jump between them at commercial time or when a song came on they didn't like. L.A., where I spent part of my youth, had many more so it was no problem to find another station with a similar format. My current market has but one CH station so if I don't like it where can I go?
So, my conclusion is that 92% number may be valid in Jasper Junction where there is only one choice but it may be far from valid in Los Angeles or any other major market. So far I haven't seen any breakdown or weighting of that number and that is largely what I meant when I said results could be interpreted in several ways.
That's what I figured -- somebody had already done that research. Not trying to be contrary but it just didn't make any sense to me. Maybe I'm a bit more tolerant than most people. I'll make sure I flip the dial sooner next time.
It's not always about you. Sometimes there is a broader discussion that involves more than just your square foot.
Do you understand what statistics are? It's a national number, including large and small markets. You want me to break it down smaller? Pay me.
All music radio.
The PPM data comes from all 48 PPM markets, representing more than half the 12+ population of the US.
For your reference, what diary reviews and PPM reports show is that, more often than not, listeners who change stations go to different formats, not the same one. A classic hits listener may go to country or classic rock or AC. The average PPM monitored listener has 5 to 6 stations they hear each week.
If you were a typical listener, you'd have several alternate choices you like about the same. But you are not typical.
It does not vary much between NY, LA or Chicago and San Antonio, Austin and Orlando.[/SIZE][/FONT]
Chimp's link is to a conversation with a few people, not a national complication of the habits of about 75,000 PPM panel members. The main interviewee is with a rimshot FM in Las Vegas running a standards format, ranked 34th in listeners 25-54. That's hardly a valid source, particularly since the station is not a subscriber to the ratings or MediaMonitors. In other words, that person's opinion about people dropping off three or four minutes into a stopset is basically just hot air. The PPM data totally disproves that theory with hard numbers.
But a radio person at a dog station with very low billing and a dreadful average listening level of 300 under 65 persons tuned in.
They also mention in the article a Seattle station that reduced commercials drastically; the ratings only showed minor improvements.
And we have told you that radio does not program for teens, so it's a moot point.
The article is full of errors, starting with the interviewing of someone at a nearly-non-listened-to station in a smaller PPM market. It's like starting with New York and working down until they found a person who said what the writer thought was right. Then there are all kinds of factual errors such as saying a "stopset" is a very long commercial break. It's actually any commercial break where a station stops down from music, perhaps does a backsell or buffer, runs one or several spots, and then does a re-entry with a liner or jingle to music.
I looked for 13 minute stopsets on the same stations, and there were none, even when traffic or weather was included. They only ran that long between music where a morning show bit or bits took up fiver or six minutes. But morning show bits are not commercials. The author was apparently counting time between songs, which is not valid and a rather deceitful practice.
You don't. That's the real truth.
And in year search for validation, you take an article that is based on one person's opinion and which concludes radio is in a tailspin.
N.B. You also lose points by using comic sans as your typeface
Can't see the forest for the trees is a saying that comes to mind. Let's see: too many commercials including too many back to back. Why would that be? Explain why businesses continue to buy ads? There are some really big companies like Home Depot that are not too wise or maybe the critic doesn't understand the reason the commercial is on the radio anyway. Anyone thinking rationally would realize if people didn't listen and respond to ads, you would not be complaining because radio sure wouldn't have too many, if any commercials. Either the radio industry and the advertising industry is wrong or...
landtuna
Walk of Fame Participant
In my experience (here we go again) classical music listeners are very different than other music listeners. They tend to stay on one station. In the old days the commercials were as likely to be quietly read by the announcer or they were in line with the tone of the broadcast. You never, ever heard a loud, obnoxious commercial played between classical recordings. These days classical music is most often played on non-comm stations so it is still not an issue. Because classical music listeners are significantly different than the norm I would personally exclude those from the 92%. Admittedly, there probably are not a ton of them.
In a way this makes sense because most markets, I presume, don't have duplicate formats.
Does the typical listener actually have several alternate formats or do they switch to alternates because they have no other choice? I think the latter is much more prevalent.
landtuna
Walk of Fame Participant
I'm noticing a pattern here.......
I like comic sans but wasn't aware that it denigrates one's intelligence or knowledge. I can change to Olde English if you like but it won't change the message.
Try this in your town: Switch from KMLE to KNIX to escape commercials. I predict that within one minute of your switch, you'll hear commercials on the alternate station.
BTW, I see the exact same thing on TV.
landtuna
Walk of Fame Participant
I used to be a loyal listener of KMLE 25 years ago - until they got rid of my favorite DJ's. They do have the best FM analog signal in the Valley. Never was fond of KNIX and very rarely listened to them even though they used to send me a free t-shirt every year or so. But I don't understand your suggestion. Are you saying they both have a similar spot load and timing? Why would I disagree with that?
I've noticed that during the Big 3 network news programs but not necessarily during regular programming. But TV is different than music radio. There is usually a story the viewer is following on TV whereas radio is just random music. You would lose the story by switching TV stations but practically nothing by switching radio.
You said listeners change stations to other stations with the same format to escape commercials. My point is that's not really an option.
I have you one option in one town, but it's not unusual.
It also happens during regular programming. If you look at cable, it will happen there too, especially among co-owned cable channels.
I have managed one classical station and owned another. I found that those listeners had other station choices and that listening to classic occurred in special moments. But the fact is that there are so few of them they would not change the data on stopset behaviour, particularly since we don't have commercial classical throughout the PPM universe.
Most markets do. Phoenix has multiple overlapping rock stations. Multiple CHRs. Multiple sports, two country stations, a buncha' AC variants, three regional Mexicans, two Spanish langage adult hits stations, and so on. Similar situations exist for most of the big formats.
Classic hits is only big enough for one station to survive, as Chicago has been proving for a coupla' years.
In any case, what we generally see is that the AC listener has a favorite AC station out of the several choices in each market, and they have as second choices the classic hits, Jack or classic rock station or the CHR, the Hot AC and the country station for music. Shared AC listening is not as great as the sum of listening to all other choices, which is the majority of the usage.
For the major formats, they absolutely have choices. But when switching, even where there are 3 or 4 alternatives, they frequently go to different stations, not ones that are very much the same.[/SIZE][/FONT]
CTListener
Walk of Fame Participant
And even if there is another option, chances are good that that station is also on the same clock and is also in a long stopset. It doesn't take many fruitless attempts at station-switching for the listener to realize he might as well grit his teeth and put up with seven minutes of ads because there really is no alternative on the local FM dial when it comes to mainstream music formats.
I have no idea what you are talking about. The article is absurd and inaccurate, sustained by the opinion of one person at a marginal station that average 300 listeners in a market of 2.1 million.
Yep. Most stations are on the hourglass or bow-tie stopset placement, trying to put the stopset across :00 and :30 or :15 and :45. The statistics show that there is no other safe place to put them in PPM.
It's time that everyone agree to disagree and move on.
For that reason, I'm closing this thread.
For that reason, I'm closing this thread.
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