-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Is HD Radio in full coverage now?
- Thread starter jras20
- Start date
I made no assumption. The fact is that most of the productive HD activity in metro areas has been to get "another station" via obtaining a translator to pair with it, allowing operators to add a service with relatively low cost.
Of course, translators have other uses ranging from non-com networks like K-Love and the addition of FM service by AM stations.
IIRC, only twice has a stand-alone HD2 ever shown in the ratings, and I do not believe one has shown in Houston unless it had an FM analog translator. Except for the ones with translators or paid ethnic programming, those HD2 channels are "computers in a closet" with no dedicated staff and no ratings.
The rare exceptions are NPR stations that have tried to put well produced unique programming on some market's HD2 (and even HD3) channels. Otherwise, the HD2s are a nuisance job for someone at a station; they certainly are not "developing their own audience" unless they have an analog FM translator.
Unlike HD2 standalones, translators (whether similcasting an AM, a non-com network or an HD channel) have achieved significant ratings in some markets where they have been able to put the full 250 watt translator power at considerable height over the market.
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
You are making my point about HD FM:
1. Consumers aren't listening.
2. Radio station owners aren't taking HD-2 seriously.
3. HD-2's can't be monetized because of 1 and 2.
4. All that will be left on HD-2 will be translator feeds because of 1-3.
5. Consumers still won't listen because of 4.
6. Broadband internet is a much cheaper and better way of distributing signals to translators, so HD-2 isn't necessary.
A horrible vicious circle that adds up to one inevitable outcome: slow death of HD radio similar to the death of C-Quam - no matter how many car radios are sold. That didn't save C-Quam, it won't save HD radio.
HD-2 was the ONLY advantage of HD radio, because the sound is not much better through the ridiculous table radios and other HD radios that were sold. I remember promises of 5.1 surround sound on HD radio. Didn't happen. iTunes tagging - didn't happen. HD-2 could have been a killer application - and still could be - if broadcasters took it seriously. Without HD-2, they might as well shut off the system so they can quit paying fees. It takes a really good stereo system to hear any difference between HD and analog - unlike the TV digital revolution where picture quality difference was dramatic. HD radio was always a solution without a problem. Sangean HDT-1X and Sony XFDR tuners were ONLY bought by DX'er's. As you can Kelly point out, that is a very small market.
Last edited:
It's not a small market. There are plenty of profitable HD2 operations based on translator simulcasts and there are many niche formats producing good revenue in some markets. In addition, there are various data services including real time traffic that use HD channels and are in part why more an more auto manufacturers are adding HD capabilities to the entertainment / navegation console.
While the original focus of HD was the enabling of terrestrial radio to be digital, lots of other uses have developed. And the technology is spreading to other countries, including Canada, Mexico and Brazil.
No, I believe you're the one missing the point(s)
David would be in a better position to elaborate, but that's an incorrect statement. There are HD2 stations in several markets, (Washington DC being one I know of) which do get decent ratings from an HD2 channel. Granted, most have some form of NPR or public radio content, but there are definitely listeners.
That depends on how you look at it; cynically or realistically. Public stations ARE taking advantage and benefiting from the additional channel space with alternate programming. Many other stations are using it to a technical advantage for Data services, feeding translators, airing language, religious, or brokered programming, or experimenting with potential formats. I would hardly dismiss it under the category of not taking it seriously. The question should be whether HD2 or 3 stations generate direct revenue for commercial stations.
See my comments above on how they are currently benefiting stations.
You're just taking one statement and making it into four. Quantity doesn't equal quality.
Wait, do you live at a Starbucks? Last I checked, radio is still free. Internet access is a subscription.
You've been making this same prediction for ten years Bruce. Hasn't happened yet. The failure of AM stereo in the 70's and 80's has nothing to do with IBOC/HD Radio on FM. Not sure why you frequently make that comparison.
Ancillary channels for FM are an option that stations can take advantage of if it suits them. Technically within the 144kbps, you can run surround audio in HD/IBOC, I've heard it. Because there is little or no music or programming for radio being produced in surround, what would be the point?
Going back to the original discussion; doubling the IBOC/HD digital carrier power (-20dBc to -14dBc), gives the digital signal equal reception coverage to the analog carrier, not just within the city grade as original. Stations who have spent the capital and made that change are definitely in the game to benefit from the use of HD2 or HD3 channels, because it's important to them to have coverage equal to the analog signal. Whether you think they're benefiting from it, is a completely different matter.
Last edited:
I wanted to address this one separately,
C-Quam died because it was never truly born. The idea of AM stereo gained momentum around 1976 when it was obvious FM was overtaking AM in total listening (1977 was the national tipping point year) so AM broadcasters wanted stereo. 5 companies presented systems, and the hope was that in 1978 we would be able to be on the air with FM stereo while we still had audiences on our AMs.
But the actions of the FCC, and particularly of one manufacturer, delayed the introduction of AM stereo for 5 years. By that time, a considerable majority of music listening time was on FM and AM music formats were being dropped for talk or ethnic programming.
The issue with car radios with C-Quam was that by the time any of them got on the road, most music was off FM. And, for the first number of years, C-Quam had awful platform motion; I witnessed one person have to stop a car while we were doing signal measurements, get out, and vomit. It was rather awful in that respect and many of us believe it made fringe AM listening in the nulls of a directional very flangy and unpleasant.
HD, on the other hand, offers a way around ownership caps, a way to add more limited or niche formats to a market and revenue from narrowcasters and data services. None of those advantages were inherent in C-Quam.
Last edited:
tomservo
Walk of Fame Participant
Hmm, that's interesting. So the HD1 is fixed at 96 or higher kbps? If the leftovers can be divvied up between any additional subchannels, I'm wondering if the FEC can be tweaked to allow one channel to have more error correction than another, then… that would explain why the HD2 is more robust than the HD3 on my local stations. On the opposite end of my state, a friend has noted that one of the iHeart stations in Huntsville is running and HD2 country format and an HD3 religious format, and the HD3 is the one that works well while the HD2 is much more dropout-prone.
Getting listenership on the subchannels has always been a chicken-and-egg situation. The stations won't program compelling content unless people are listening, but people won't listen unless there's compelling content. And that's assuming anyone has an HD radio at all. I'm really starting to see it in a lot of cars now, so it's definitely making headway in the automotive space. But at home, quality HD radios are few and far between.
One thing I've never been able to figure out is why iBiquity decided table radios (horrible unitaskers that few buy anymore) were the preferred home solution instead of getting HD fitted to home theater receivers. It's the perfect place for it. Home theaters are more popular than ever, it's a stationary device so dropouts will not be a big issue and the majority of them already come with AM/FM as standard. But few if any offer HD built-in. At best it's a $100 add-on that no one would dare touch.
I do believe radio stations owners ARE taking HD-2 and HD-3 feeds seriously now, because they've found a way to monetize them, via translators and leases. In this sense they're nothing more than glorified SCAs, but apparently those have been profitable for broadcasters, too. HD radios are still easier to acquire than SCA tuners, that's for sure.
You talk about the ubiquity of internet, but keep in mind not all internet connections are the same. When I got my first "smart" phone in 2010, the my carrier's network was EV-DO 3G and it rarely hit 1 Mbps, and even then only for fits and spurts. (It was Cellular South, later C-Spire, a regional southern CDMA carrier.) AT&T was tops here, with 2 Mbps through their HSPA 3G. There was no backbone infrastructure to support anything faster.
Nowadays I do have 4G LTE through Verizon and it's lightning fast — I've hit 80 Mbps a few times in download speed tests — but when moving even it tends to drop streams and rebuffer a lot. There's no way streaming can handle the local listenership of a typical modest radio station without crashing to a halt. Of course even if it did work flawlessly, I'm still staring down a data cap, one I'd rather reserve for watching Netflix away from wifi!
Now I know this is somewhat logical, but it has not been true in my observation. 250 watt translators are still a pittance compared to a typical urban class B/C's coverage abilities. They will have gaps in challenging terrain that the HD can fill in. In Birmingham, I know of a handful who have embraced the HD-2 feeds of a couple "metro signal" broadcasts due to terrain shadowing of the analog translators. In that market, some translators are 250 watts but others are only 99 watts and the power levels are trending down as space becomes scarce. A relative recently bought a new-used Mazda and I was happy to show her how to listen to her beloved rock station via the HD2 feed when she couldn't pick up the translator in the fringe areas. Now she has dropout-free service via one or the other for her entire commute to work.
That'll mean something if the FCC ever allows stations to feed a translator directly that way. Right now the rules say they can only rebroadcast something else terrestrial: an analog FM/AM or digital station.
Personally, I'm more convinced than ever that IBOC HD was never actually meant to succeed the way it was hyped in the early days. I think secretly the thinking at iBiquity was "if it works the way we'll claim it does, great. But if it doesn't, there's always using it to skirt ownership caps, which is a guaranteed success."
It's sad that the technology never got off the ground. From what I've read, platform motion is pretty much a non-issue with the most modern chipsets available. Too bad no one uses them anymore. It seems like that happens a lot in the world of technology. A good idea is released a bit before it's fully baked, then flounders to obscurity while steadily improving. In addition to AM stereo, I personally embraced another example of this: minidisc. I got in probably in the second or third generation of ATRAC, when the sound quality was starting to really pick up. The technology continued to advance, and had Sony not been so stubborn with their baby, it might have seen wider success. By the end of the line (in the US at least), minidiscs could hold hours and hours of high fidelity audio thanks to many ATRAC improvements.
Just as I have a little-used AMAX Walkman sitting in a drawer, I have an entire closet full of MDs in cases, that I'll probably never listen to again.
That is correct. Remember that the system was not originally developed for multiple channels, but with a path to digital modulation. During development prior to Ibquity being formed, there was interest on the part of broadcasters to split off bits for ancillary channels.
There is a limited amount of manipulation one can do configuring bits for each stream. The structure of any FEC isn't adjustable, given the limited number of bits for ancillary channels anyway.
I've seen very successful rural radio stations pretty much completely rely on translators as their main transmission sources. Covering large areas of real estate with translators on multiple frequencies isn't so viable anymore, given the potential for AM stations via FM translator. Selling a translator for a move-in to a larger market, have rural translator licensees seeing potential dollar signs.
My recollection is more along the lines of licensing and promoting the technology options, then see how broadcasters make good use of it. Partially due to really poor promotion during initial implementation, it's taken longer that expected to see growth of HD Radio, but it is growing. Part of that delay can also be attributed to the massive growth of smartphones, DTV and other devices, around the launch of HD Radio.
AMAX wasn't very good. That, and as David mentioned, music listeners had already made the move to FM by the time AMAX was being promoted.
I remember stopping by the AMAX booth at NAB one year, putting on headphones for about thirty seconds, listening to the wonders of AMAX. Problem was, there was a high pitched whistle that made listening for more than a few seconds impossible. At least for me. One of their reps saw my expression after putting on the headphones, then taking them off pretty quickly. I asked the rep, what's with the whistle? He replied that I must have pretty good hearing, because most people wouldn't be able to hear that artifact of AMAX. My retort was to ask what about female listeners, who are known to have better high frequency hearing range? They didn't have an answer for that question.
RIP AM Stereo and AMAX.
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
I will address this last one first. I've done drive tests. I would find it hard to believe that no Houston station has increased HD power. I'm consistently getting 75 miles, no matter which station. Occasional dropout don't matter, I am measuring that to the first 30 second dropout - which would motivate just about anybody to find another station. Some minor variations, but all fall out within +/- 5 miles, even going three or four different routes out of the city. That is actually a fantastic range - you are well out of the city and into the country in all directions. I am not sure that would be true in the Dallas market, where the shape is lopsided. But in a relatively circular market, it should cover. North is the worst direction. It barely covers the newest suburbs in Conroe, but places North of there like Huntsville are separate, smaller markets anyway.
Analog is a different story. Depending on the station, I can get 130 to 140 miles - using the same 30 second dropout criteria. In other words - about double the range of HD. So I don't see HD coverage equal to analog by any stretch of the imagination.
Granted - the amount of music produced in surround sound is pretty low. It is a shame - I think record companies dropped the ball on this one. Perhaps the HD alliance should have coordinated with record companies.
I still say, broadband internet can do everything HD does for stations - driving translators, distributing traffic, etc. Radio may be free - but it is also prone to interference. I can't verify this - but after a Christian station in Vero Beach was often overrun by other stations on the same frequency during skip events - broadcasting the other station through their translators, they probably converted their translator feed over to broadband long ago. HD-2 is even more prone to dropping during skip events, so even less reliable. Internet may be a significant cost to a consumer, but to a radio station - it is miniscule compared to the cost of implementing and maintaining HD equipment. And it is much more reliable. Win-win situation for the station and the listener, over the air solutions are not as reliable and reliability is king.
I am glad NPR is making money with HD-2 and getting ratings. You contradict David who says no HD-2 gets ratings, so - I don't think it can be both ways. In my experience, HD-2 is where unwanted formats are exiled to die. Classical from the NPR station. Smooth Jazz. The point - and 80's format. NGEN - to shut up Christian rock fans. Oldies on two stations, to shut up oldies fans. And so forth. There is no expectation of revenue, ratings, or anything else.
And yes - the broadcasters don't take the HD-2's seriously. A two month outtage? Eh - don't care. Nobody is listening anyway. If I didn't post about the outage or call, probably nobody would even know. I am that wierdo that doesn't like the primary format and is an HD fanatic to them. Multiple times, multiple stations - all of the formats listed above. A general yawning "we don't care about HD-2" from every broadcaster in the area. If their main analog channel went out, they would move heaven and earth to get back on the air. I guarantee it!
And - that also implies to me - they don't care about any of the other auxilary services HD provides, either. Not traffic, not data, not anything. Its a box in the transmitter shed that doesn't affect their main signal, so it isn't anything close to a priority.
I said very few (two I think) HD pure plays have made the ratings. One of them is from NPR in Washington. And that is because they have a niche format available nowhere else in the fashion that they do it.
The music HD2's are not "formats in exile". They are niche formats that don't have analog signal competitors for the most part. Tejano, classical, jazz, smooth jazz, etc. In fact, classical and jazz on non-coms can generate listener support income.
Also, a number of formats have developed on HD2... one being LA's KAMP "Amp" format variation of Hispanic-targeted rhythmic CHR, which started on an HD2 and then was moved to a full B signal.
Believe me, if a station is generating revenue from data or a leased HD channel, the engineer's pager or cellphone alert will go off as fast for an HD fail as it would for the analog signal.
In few cases does coverage beyond 75 miles matter... it is usually out of the Nielsen MSA in most markets and not of any sales usefulness. Exceptions are markets like NYC which extends to the eastern tip of Long Island, nearly 120 miles east of the Empire State Building where no NYC Class B reaches well even on the analog signal.
Conroe is in the Houston market. Huntsville is not in any measured metro, so it is in no radio market at all. It is just a local market.
Whereas I recognize it's hard not to generalize the state of media based on your local market sphere of influence, it's a big country out there past Houston Bruce. The perceived lack of attention paid to your favorite local HD-2 channel, and whatever disappointment you feel for it therein , is not indicative of every HD radio station in the USA.
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
Its not just one HD-2, it is multiple HD-2's at stations owned by different stations and different corporations. Just a total apathy whether it is KSBJ's Christian NGEN format, or one of the oldies, or smooth jazz, or "the point". All have had outtages lasting weeks or months. Houston is just one market, but if HD-2's are being treated with that type of apathy nationwide, they will never develop a following. A station that isn't on the air won't have any ratings, nor will it generate revenue. Wasted opportunities - at least locally.
At least one poster on here even went so far as to say it was MY responsibility to call it in - because the engineer might not even know! That implied that:
(1) the engineer never monitors his HD-2, and it isn't his priority or the station owner's priority.
(2) that I am some sort of HD-2 fanatic, the only one listening so I am the one who needs to report it.
(3) - I am the only one noticing or listening - talk about micro-casting!!!!
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
Without a very good radio and antenna, you won't get 75 miles, not even on the full class C stations here. My daughter's car with her tiny nub antenna, and her boyfriends car with the shark fin won't get even 50 mile HD. But analog wise, they are in good shape. This is a concern for HD, because some locals are not on Senior road. KHPT, KSBJ, and KTHT are considered local, originate in the far NE sections of the metro area, show up in the top 20 ratings, and have excellent analog signals over West and Southwest Houston, but HD is gone. KSBJ- acknowledging this, put a super translator on 99.5 in Sugarland, covering all of SW Houston where KSBJ HD-2 won't reach.
Scale that down to the ERPs and tower heights on the East Coast, and you will be down in range proportionally, especially over rough terrain. The folks out on Long Island, I dare say, never get HD but based on the tower height in NYC probably do pretty well with analog FM. I know I have NYC stations to well past Hartford when I travel up there, in some cases long enough Boston starts to come in. I haven't driven up there with HD in a rental car yet, but I bet I don't get much more than 50 miles HD range - if that.
Back to Conroe - it may be in the Houston market. But people in those houses on the lake have a tough time because they are low in elevation. Most Senior road signals don't reach them well, even in analog. HD? Not a snowball's chance! And I go up there a lot.
Every single time - HD is much less robust with much less range than analog, even on the power increased Houston stations, which I don't even know which ones they are because the ALL have similar HD ranges. And if you are unlucky enough to be listening to HD-2 - the radio reverts to analog after a long silence.
Huntsville is interesting. It supports a full time oldies station, which is doing so well they bought an FM signal.
I know what you are talking about with HD-2 developing an audience. NGEN is not a purely HD signal, they are on far rim shots and translators - but KSBJ made it a priority to get a full power signal for them. They wouldn't bother if they weren't raking in donations to support it.
Those stations have "fair to weak" signals over the Brazoria, Ft. Bend and Galveston County areas. And the in-home listening to those stations in that area is proportionally low.
But since fully two-thirds of the population is in Harris County and only about 25% is in the three poorly covered counties, those stations can get the ratings you mention without that coverage.
This kind of edge-of-market rimshot signal is in a significant part a reason why FM all news failed... not enough signal to be listened to reliably in all of the market. You may think those signals are "excellent" but they definitely do not generate much fixed location listening beyond the 65 dbu contour... so to the listener, they are unusable. And that is for analog; your estimates of what a usable signal is seem to be based in DXer's criteria, not those of real listeners.
No, they do not do well way out there as the power on the ESB is 6 kw or under. And the usable HD tends to be about the same as the usable analog level. Again, the listener tells us what is usable based on where popular stations get PPM credits and they don't have aftermarket radios in their cars and haven't punched holes in their bodywork to put vertical antennae on their nice car.
And I heard Hawaiian, New Zealand and Australian AM stations in Ohio. But the average Ohioan has not.
Actually, in the parts of Montgomery County that are most populated, usage of Senior Road signals indexes well against the total market listening.
Or, more likely, the Huntsville AM saw the handwriting on the wall and realized that it came to getting an FM or fading out of existence. As it is, it is a bad facility on AM that actually gets better useful coverage with the translator.
In local-driven small markets, formats like that can do well. Buys are rated by the cash register, not ratings. We are talking about a market of less than 50,000 and not the over six million of Houston, in any case.
Again.. One or two stations that you enjoy in the Houston area, are not indicative of how stations are run nationwide.
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
Try half a dozen - not one or two. Different ownership groups. HD-2 apathy by owners is a problem - at least here in Houston, the 6th largest market.
Ai4i
Star Participant
I admit to having called a couple of local stations to inform them that the display was stuck on a piece that had aired a couple of days back and/or that the wrong program was being aired.
Many years ago, I actually called RCI in Sackville to let them know that the wrong language feed was going into the wrong transmitter.
As I listened to a Polish program in the United States, I fantasized about some slightly underfed, slightly unshaven Polish guy shivering and removing his snow-gloves, and frantically tuning his huge vacuum tube receiver but only hearing RCI in English. (of course, the fantasy was monochromic, in black & white)
Many years ago, I actually called RCI in Sackville to let them know that the wrong language feed was going into the wrong transmitter.
As I listened to a Polish program in the United States, I fantasized about some slightly underfed, slightly unshaven Polish guy shivering and removing his snow-gloves, and frantically tuning his huge vacuum tube receiver but only hearing RCI in English. (of course, the fantasy was monochromic, in black & white)
Last edited:
- Status