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Is HD Radio in full coverage now?

You just motivated me to get that youtube on the web proving the issue.
You do that. Everyone knows, as with Wikipedia, YouTube is a reliable source of all things technical on line.

I tried to do good science.

Good science? When? How? Bruce, I've asked you on multiple occasions to back up your claims with methodology or some tiny form of good science. Rather, all we ever get is doublespeak, gibberish and your radio format preferences. I doubt that trend will change, because you simply can't back up claims that are all wrong.

The only thing I can't prove is undertone jamming from stations 10.4 to 11 MHz above the received HD signal. I need to try that test again, because dropouts are happening on KSBJ 89.3, and 100.3 is a popular local station, not so much 99.7.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the car radio manufacturers are using low side injection instead of high side injection - for whatever reason.

Don't you already know? Because you've made it clear in multiple posts that all the "engineers" practice "bad engineering".
 
Don't you already know? Because you've made it clear in multiple posts that all the "engineers" practice "bad engineering".

Not all engineers. Most really know what they are doing. The ones that don't resort to name calling, high pressure sales techniques to sell inferior products, and fear tactics / peer pressure / alcohol to sell their products. The HD people have excelled at all.

As for low side injection as opposed to high side injection - do you even know what I am talking about? I've seen a lot of low side injection done in cell phone base stations - I guess if your IF frequency is high compared to RF, it reduces the bandwidth you have to design. Some of those base stations are triple conversion so the first IF is substantially high. I've still got second IF SAW filters that are 140 MHz, others 70 MHz. I wonder what the first IF frequency is? Third is generally 10.7 MHz, back in familiar territory. I really don't think low side injection on an FM radio would necessarily cause problems, but it is interesting is that is the source of the "undertone" jamming - which at that point would not be undertone, but local oscillator jamming.

I think Sony uses low side in their CXA1129 chip. Not sure about the NXP you showed me.
 
You just motivated me to get that youtube on the web proving the issue. I tried to do good science. The only thing I can't prove is undertone jamming from stations 10.4 to 11 MHz above the received HD signal. I need to try that test again, because dropouts are happening on KSBJ 89.3, and 100.3 is a popular local station, not so much 99.7.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the car radio manufacturers are using low side injection instead of high side injection - for whatever reason.

Good luck on that endeavor — just about every time I post a YouTube video that is radio-related, it gets taken down with copyright violations. Even scratchy, hard to hear shortwave videos. Their copyright robots are jerks. ;)

Still, I would like to see exactly what you're talking about. I'm skeptical but trying to keep an open mind.
 
Good luck on that endeavor — just about every time I post a YouTube video that is radio-related, it gets taken down with copyright violations. Even scratchy, hard to hear shortwave videos. Their copyright robots are jerks. ;)

Still, I would like to see exactly what you're talking about. I'm skeptical but trying to keep an open mind.

Darn - I hope I don't get shut down by the youtube censors! I am not highly motivated to put the video up, because it is unlikely to change the mind of our resident mean person. But then I have contended with mean people ever since I dealt with mean girls in middle school. They do not argue for logic or reason. They simply argue, and have honed hatred to art from. I know I have done good science, and what the result is. I don't have anything to prove to the closed minded. People who are nice and respectful to other people are more likely to motivate me to do something. So if I do dust off the old analog camcorder and nurse it back into action, then figure out how to get that tape over to youtube - it will be more for you and others who are genuinely interested than it will be for middle school worthy mean person.
 
I am not highly motivated to put the video up, because it is unlikely to change the mind of our resident mean person.
Cowardly excuse because admit it, you really no very little about radio or broadcasting.

But then I have contended with mean people ever since I dealt with mean girls in middle school.
Here we go again, redirect the topic away from your inability to back up your unsubstantiated claims about radio technical subjects to your childhood trauma about being picked on by girls in junior high. Being picked on by girls Bruce? GIRLS!

They do not argue for logic or reason. They simply argue, and have honed hatred to art from.

Is arguing the same as asking you to prove your point? Which, after numerous requests to do so, you still resort to "boo-hoo, he's being mean to me", or "I like listening to (fill in station) HD2 channel".

I know I have done good science, and what the result is. I don't have anything to prove to the closed minded.

Great, then show what you know. The simple fact is if a professional disagrees or questions you, your response is that you don't need to prove anything. Which is true I suppose, but the result is your credibility declines to zero.

People who are nice and respectful to other people are more likely to motivate me to do something. So if I do dust off the old analog camcorder and nurse it back into action, then figure out how to get that tape over to youtube - it will be more for you and others who are genuinely interested than it will be for middle school worthy mean person.

More Boo-hoo. How old are you? You're acting like a middle school child. Time to put on your big boy pants Bruce, and bring results to an adult discussion.
 
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I look at your conversations with each other and I see two intelligent guys talking past each other. Just my observation.

Carry on.
 
Just to put this thread back on track HD is broadcasting in full power somewhere in ibiquity's dreams.
 
Just to put this thread back on track HD is broadcasting in full power somewhere in ibiquity's dreams.

There are many stations, including several IHeart and NPR stations who maximized their HD transmission systems to the current legal limit.

What does Ibquity have to do with your question?
 
I still do not see how a piddling few dB of extra power is going to help anything, when the signal fluctuations that cause dropouts are several decades of power in a very short time. Especially on the approach paths to major airports. Once that digital signal is lost, it take seconds to re-establish, when the fluctuations are a happening in tens of milliseconds by comparison. A few extra dB might forestall the initial drop by a few milliseconds, but then you have the dead silence on HD-2+ that takes several seconds to go away. Useless enhancement in that case.
 
A few piddling dB? Okay, so how many "piddling" dB would equal a 1X increase? How about a 4X increase? -20dBc to -14dBc is a 4X increase over original. There is the answer.

It has nothing to do with "re-establishing" reception of a stream.
 
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That's the thing, if Bruce wanted to debate me, or other professionals in the business about whether 6dBc of increase would have an adequate impact to listeners by using relevant technical data, I'd totally welcome the debate.

I recognize Bruce's gibberish is nothing more than preaching to the handful of anti-HD radio choir on this board who don't understand, nor are interested in understanding how HD Radio actually functions. If one learns the actual details and still doesn't like HD Radio? I say, fair enough!
 
A few piddling dB? Okay, so how many "piddling" dB would equal a 1X increase? How about a 4X increase? -20dBc to -14dBc is a 4X increase over original. There is the answer.

It has nothing to do with "re-establishing" reception of a stream.

You are at least talking about power dB and not voltage dB, very good. So am I. Decades of signal strength variation. Even a 4x increase is a drop in the bucket. Nothing will help under dropout conditions, which is most of the problem. HD-2 dropping out to dead silence for several seconds is unacceptable if you are treating HD-2 as a real "station within a station". I am a DX'er, and used to putting up with marginal signals. Every single non-DX'er I have demonstrated HD-2 to hears one dropout, maybe two - and they are DONE with the technology. My wife tells me to change the radio back to satellite if I am playing HD-2, because she knows super annoying HD-2 dropouts are inevitable. Try singing along with your favorite song and have it disappear for 10 seconds. Unacceptably embarrassing doesn't even to begin to describe it. If they have it in the car, they won't bother with HD-2 because it is not reliable. Not my wife, not my sister in law, not my daughter, not her boyfriend, etc. Probably dozens of friends and relatives over the years - I was trying to help promote HD-2 stations I believe in. All of them are using satellite but hate HD-2 dropouts enough to never tune to it again.

Add to that the attitude posters on this board have had towards HD-2, like it doesn't even matter, and therefore isn't a priority to keep on the air. HD-2 is the ONLY thing HD radio has going for it. And its not reliable. I like HD radio. I've got three, and listen to HD-2. It is a DX hobby, same as before, because only DX'ers can put up with it. Your wishful thinking won't change it. Somebody needed to come up with a backup plan to keep the HD-2 alive - back it up on AM - something. Dead silence is unacceptable except to HD fanatics like us. I'm just honest enough to say it. You aren't.
 
You are at least talking about power dB and not voltage dB, very good. So am I.

If you understood better the terminology of radio and the FCC, you would not say "at least". You would say nothing, in fact.

Even a 4x increase is a drop in the bucket. Nothing will help under dropout conditions, which is most of the problem.

Dropout is an artifact of digital at any power level, just as it is going into an urban structure valley with FM or a tunnel with AM. A 4 x power increase in RF is roughly a doubling of the useful coverage area, so it is very significant.

Every single non-DX'er I have demonstrated HD-2 to hears one dropout, maybe two - and they are DONE with the technology. My wife tells me to change the radio back to satellite if I am playing HD-2, because she knows super annoying HD-2 dropouts are inevitable.

In the LA area, my XM/Sirius service drops out far more often than HD in the intended service areas of the local stations. You are using DXer criteria for a local radio issue.

Add to that the attitude posters on this board have had towards HD-2, like it doesn't even matter, and therefore isn't a priority to keep on the air. HD-2 is the ONLY thing HD radio has going for it.

Interestingly, the secondary channel concept was an add-on to the original motivation for HD, which was to make stations "digital" in an era when "digital" had become a perceived needed quality.

And a main reason for HD-2's and beyond is specialized services like Radio Desi and similar, and to enable the addition of translators to a cluster without adding to a company market cap.
 
Add to that the attitude posters on this board have had towards HD-2, like it doesn't even matter, and therefore isn't a priority to keep on the air. HD-2 is the ONLY thing HD radio has going for it. And its not reliable. I like HD radio. I've got three, and listen to HD-2.

You do know that HD2 audio streams are part of the same bit stream as HD1 channels don't you? You talk about HD2 channels like they are something separate. They aren't.

It is a DX hobby, same as before, because only DX'ers can put up with it. Your wishful thinking won't change it. Somebody needed to come up with a backup plan to keep the HD-2 alive - back it up on AM - something. Dead silence is unacceptable except to HD fanatics like us. I'm just honest enough to say it. You aren't.

I'm not honest about DX'ers? No idea what that is supposed to mean. The DX hobby represents about .000001% of radio listening, and 000000% of anything that broadcasters care about.

I live in the Washington DC Metro area, where there are numerous HD stations between DC and Richmond, VA. Unless I'm way out on the fringe of either market, I have no long drop-outs for HD-anything. It may switch back to analog if in a rough area in the fringe, but as David already explained, except for NPR affiliated stations, HD2 channels are mainly for translator feeds or a beachhead for future use.
 
You do know that HD2 audio streams are part of the same bit stream as HD1 channels don't you? You talk about HD2 channels like they are something separate. They aren't.

Maybe you or David can 'splain something to me, related to this. All the channels are basically matrixed into one big data feed, for lack of a more precise way to put it, right? So how come the HD3/4 feeds I've heard tend to be so much more dropout prone than the HD/HD2 channels?

It kind of seems like they're either operating in some extended mode to make these additional channels happen, or there's less error correction applied to these channels… I just can't quite wrap my non-engineer head around it.

I first noticed this in a different market while I was travelling. The HD was pretty robust through the whole metro but one particular station's HD3 was dropping out more than pot smoking teens in high school. At the time I chalked it up to some odd setup issue or maybe terrain related, but a few years later I am down here on the Gulf Coast and Pensacola's WUWF has added an HD3 for their reading service and it does the same thing. I'm right on the fringe of the HD service, maybe 42 miles from them with their C1 class coverage area. When conditions are good, I get the HD/HD2 just fine, but the HD3 is spotty.

Fast forward to now, and iHeartRadio has recently added HD3s to two of their big class C stations in Mobile. And even though I get a stellar signal while stationary at home, the HD3s are constantly popping in and out. In this case, I'm less than 20 miles from the TX sites, so signal strength should not be an issue even though they're only running 1%.

It has me a bit perplexed. I've also encountered the issue when tropo has brought in New Orleans or Panama City stations. The HD3 is the one that never seems to lock.
 
Maybe you or David can 'splain something to me, related to this. All the channels are basically matrixed into one big data feed, for lack of a more precise way to put it, right? So how come the HD3/4 feeds I've heard tend to be so much more dropout prone than the HD/HD2 channels?

It kind of seems like they're either operating in some extended mode to make these additional channels happen, or there's less error correction applied to these channels… I just can't quite wrap my non-engineer head around it.

I first noticed this in a different market while I was travelling. The HD was pretty robust through the whole metro but one particular station's HD3 was dropping out more than pot smoking teens in high school. At the time I chalked it up to some odd setup issue or maybe terrain related, but a few years later I am down here on the Gulf Coast and Pensacola's WUWF has added an HD3 for their reading service and it does the same thing. I'm right on the fringe of the HD service, maybe 42 miles from them with their C1 class coverage area. When conditions are good, I get the HD/HD2 just fine, but the HD3 is spotty.

Fast forward to now, and iHeartRadio has recently added HD3s to two of their big class C stations in Mobile. And even though I get a stellar signal while stationary at home, the HD3s are constantly popping in and out. In this case, I'm less than 20 miles from the TX sites, so signal strength should not be an issue even though they're only running 1%.

It has me a bit perplexed. I've also encountered the issue when tropo has brought in New Orleans or Panama City stations. The HD3 is the one that never seems to lock.
While you're waiting for a real answer, I can tell you that there are two types of HD3 and beyond channels, one that takes bits away from the HD2 and the other that extends the frequency response. On the first type, I find the sound quality sub par and on the second, it sounds really good but under certain circumstances, is more susceptible to interference of the analog signal, causing frequent dropouts. I thought it was a matter of physics until a third station came on that didn't do it at all. Aside from that, I haven't heard a dropout on HD1 or 2 in about a decade!
 
You do know that HD2 audio streams are part of the same bit stream as HD1 channels don't you? You talk about HD2 channels like they are something separate. They aren't.



I'm not honest about DX'ers? No idea what that is supposed to mean. The DX hobby represents about .000001% of radio listening, and 000000% of anything that broadcasters care about.

I live in the Washington DC Metro area, where there are numerous HD stations between DC and Richmond, VA. Unless I'm way out on the fringe of either market, I have no long drop-outs for HD-anything. It may switch back to analog if in a rough area in the fringe, but as David already explained, except for NPR affiliated stations, HD2 channels are mainly for translator feeds or a beachhead for future use.

I want to thank you for elevated the discussion to a more civil level! Now we have a basis to talk.

Of course I know HD2+ are part of the same digital stream. I am talking about the radio ads promoted a few years back by the HD alliance - who encouraged people to discover the "stations between the stations" - I think that is the wording. It definitely implied to me that the broadcasters were intending for HD-2 to be a separate station, completely separate from the HD-1, except for the fact it is parasitic on it - a fact that consumers really didn't have to be concerned with or even know.

Washington DC may be a different case, but in Houston the HD-2's are broadcasting formats not available anywhere on HD-1 / analog. Christian rock, smooth jazz, indie rock, oldies, 80's, R&B oldies. Some really unique stuff, while the HD-1 / analog is of no interest to me for the most part. That is just to me - but I suspect there are others who like the HD-2 format of stations, without caring in the slightest about the HD-1. A good example is legacy KCOH - R&B / soul / minority centric programming on and HD-2 of a country station. Probably close to ZERO interest by one group of listeners in the programming on the other channel. KKBQ country music listeners probably don't care about KCOH programming, the KCOH people don't care about KKBQ programming. The KCOH crowd is probably aware that their format piggybacks on a country station, but if HD-2 goes out long enough that their radios revert to country music - they will not listen. KKBQ listeners who inadvertently hit the "up" button and get KCOH will soon re-tune. Zero overlap - KCOH is effectively a different station with its own audience.

Obviously I don't see David's assumption that HD-2 are translator feeds being true here in Houston. In fact, the one such case here closed down operations. It is certainly one use, but the experience in Houston is that HD-2's are developing their own identity, their own audience. In the case of NGEN radio - actually moving to an analog signal in a couple of months. Obviously, that, too is a use of HD-2.

I am glad you aren't experiencing dropouts, they are all over the place here. The latest dead spot I have identified is Greenhouse and I-10 for KRBE - a full class C about 15 miles from that location. There are numerous other momentary dead spots. But if you are stopped at a traffic light, KRBE HD-2 oldies - a separate radio station - is silent for the duration of the light. Dead air is never an inducement for listener loyalty. I hit the button to go to something else, knowing that the dead spot is as dependable and repeatable as things get in radio.

Oh - I meant honest about the prospects of HD-2 when dropouts abound. I am not talking about an HD-1 where there is a fall back to the analog channel. I am talking about HD-2's, programming as their own radio station, dropping to dead silence for ten seconds at a time, or more if you are in a dead zone. NOBODY - not even me - tolerates a minute of silence waiting for the light to change. HD-2 is a concept that failed, and HD-1 is not an improvement for 99% of listeners, so HD has no real advantage to the average consumer. THAT is what I am talking about. A DX'er only has more tolerance for dropouts, and therefore dis-proportionally more apt to use HD radio.
 
Maybe you or David can 'splain something to me, related to this. All the channels are basically matrixed into one big data feed, for lack of a more precise way to put it, right? So how come the HD3/4 feeds I've heard tend to be so much more dropout prone than the HD/HD2 channels?

It kind of seems like they're either operating in some extended mode to make these additional channels happen, or there's less error correction applied to these channels… I just can't quite wrap my non-engineer head around it.

While you're waiting for a real answer, I can tell you that there are two types of HD3 and beyond channels, one that takes bits away from the HD2 and the other that extends the frequency response. On the first type, I find the sound quality sub par and on the second, it sounds really good but under certain circumstances, is more susceptible to interference of the analog signal, causing frequent dropouts. I thought it was a matter of physics until a third station came on that didn't do it at all. Aside from that, I haven't heard a dropout on HD1 or 2 in about a decade!

Dan gave you a good answer, but I'll elaborate on what he said.. FM HD uses a total bit rate of 144kbp/s. Within that 144, 96kbps are reserved for the HD1 audio. Within that 96kbps are some packets reserved for FEC (Forward Error Correction-bits) Assuming a station has an HD2 channel, there are 48kbps left for an individual ancillary HD2 channel with very little FEC. If the station runs and HD3 channel, then the HD2 and HD3 splits 48kbps, 24 each, with pretty much no FEC.

The delay Bruce complains about frequently, is caused by caching or buffering of the stream at the receiver until enough bits in the correct order arrive to continue the stream playing. There is very little room for extra (redundant) bits for the HD2 and HD3-24kbps to replace potential missing ones lost to things like: multipath, interference, whatever.
 
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