Carltheradioguy
Frequent Participant
Which is a better perfomer on each band?
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Panasonic rf 2200 vs c crane2E
- Thread starter Carltheradioguy
- Start date
Schroedingers Cat
Star Participant
I've never used a CCrane, but the reviews I've seen say the RF-2200 is better, at least on AM BC. The RF-2200 compares favorably in performance to FI meters that I have used, which go down to 10 uV/m.
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Carltheradioguy
Frequent Participant
How big a difference? Sorry, just wondering because I have been impressed with my C Crane 2E.
I have and really like both, and I find them to be very close on AM. The RF-2200 is slightly more sensitive, but the CC-2E is a bit more selective and has the entire X band, whereas my RF-2200 stops at 1660.
It's worth noting that the CC-2E's volume can max out on some very weak stations while the RF-2200 still has volume to spare on those signals. I'm not sure if that's an AGC or soft mute issue. Also, when you change the frequency on the CC-2E (whether by tuning or preset), the volume annoyingly drops for a second while the radio's circuitry fine tunes the antenna. However, the CC-2, its predecessor, supposedly never did this even though it still had the same auto-tuning feature.
Additionally, the RF-2200 doesn't have any images of the 5 kW station that's three miles from my home, but the CC-2E has a couple, although they're fairly faint.
I can vouch for the switch issues with the RF-2200. I bought mine on eBay last year for a great price, but when I got it, only the FM band worked. A friend opened it up, cleaned it out (along with dust and dirt, there were dead bugs inside), and sprayed it with Deoxit. Even after that, I had to flip some of the switches up and down a lot of times before the radio would successfully switch between bands or the narrow/wide filter. I find that if I don't use the radio for a while, I sometimes have to do the switch flipping again for a bit.
It's worth noting that the CC-2E's volume can max out on some very weak stations while the RF-2200 still has volume to spare on those signals. I'm not sure if that's an AGC or soft mute issue. Also, when you change the frequency on the CC-2E (whether by tuning or preset), the volume annoyingly drops for a second while the radio's circuitry fine tunes the antenna. However, the CC-2, its predecessor, supposedly never did this even though it still had the same auto-tuning feature.
Additionally, the RF-2200 doesn't have any images of the 5 kW station that's three miles from my home, but the CC-2E has a couple, although they're fairly faint.
I can vouch for the switch issues with the RF-2200. I bought mine on eBay last year for a great price, but when I got it, only the FM band worked. A friend opened it up, cleaned it out (along with dust and dirt, there were dead bugs inside), and sprayed it with Deoxit. Even after that, I had to flip some of the switches up and down a lot of times before the radio would successfully switch between bands or the narrow/wide filter. I find that if I don't use the radio for a while, I sometimes have to do the switch flipping again for a bit.
Disclaimer: I did a proper RF/IF alignment on the Panasonic in the late '70's. My observational ratings= FM sensitivity.. 1. RF2200 2. CC2E 3. CC2
FM selectivity.. 1. CC2E 2. RF 2200 3. CC2 AM sensitivity.. 1. CC2 2. RF2200 (and very close)3. CC2E AM selectivity... 1. RF2200 2. CC2 3. CC2E
Radio performance varies quite a bit among individual samples; except for my Sangean radios. It sounds like your CC is great!
Carltheradioguy
Frequent Participant
Yeah, i've heard the older radios vary a lot, Well, to me it's great but to someone else and compared to the RF-2200 it could be awful. I've gotten a lot of distant AM stations that I never have before with it and on FM it's dxing material.
I think the CC2E mutes because of the digital IF chip. RAdios with digital SiLabs IF chips tend to do that. It's the chip tuning to the antenna and signal.
The newer Sangean PR-D5's with digital IF chips do that also. My PR-D5 doesn't have a long muting delay. Going from one channel to the next the 'muting' is less than a second. The AGC is not as tight as some other radios I have, though. I think it's the way the digital IF chip handles what it perceives as noise.
The only issue I have with the PR-D5 is using an external loop with it. You have to keep it further from the radio than normal (about 6 inches), otherwise, it's nearly impossible to peak the loop. I'm curious as to whether it's the same with the CC2E.
RE: switches: I had a Sony from the same era as the RF2200 which I'd gotten used, which had faulty switches. They just apparently wear out over time. Deoxit didn't work at all. Basically all bands except FM and AM were dead. Taking the radio apart to replace the switches would have been a tremendous chore. That's why I mentioned the switch issue.
In my view, and old GE Superadio 1 or 2 is probably a better choice than an RF2200 or Sony ICF5900 for most DXers. GESR1's and 2's can sometimes have bandswitch issues, which is a much easier fix, comparatively (hit the solder pads with an solder gun or iron). But they are generally built like tanks, and they perform excellently.
The RF2200 is known as a good performer. If someone gets a good one, they just need to remember the switches can get funky. Otherwise, they have a classic SW and AM radio.
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The SiLab chip's muting is a pain, but I've gotten used to it. However, I have a Sangean PR-D15, and although it mutes while tuning, there's no drop-out/fade-up of the signal like with the CC-2E.
I thought that my RF-2200 was going to be a dog, but after the cleanup, it really came alive and is a stellar performer on AM. Its only issue besides the finicky switches is that the gyro antenna makes light static on some frequencies when I rotate it.
As for using an external loop antenna, my CC-2E works very well with a Terk loop. It's very easy to couple and can be oriented very close. The PR-D15 works almost as well with it, and it doesn't need to be far away from it. Interestingly, the RF-2200 barely gets any improvement from the Terk.
I'm really curious to know if the PR-D5 is more sensitive than the PR-D15 as some reviewers say. I've seen other reviewers saying that the sensitivity is equal but the PR-D15 has a lower maximum volume. I can say that the PR-D15's volume does max out on weak signals even sooner than the CC-2E'S volume does.
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Schroedingers Cat
Star Participant
The GE SuperRadio II, even though it will only push 1630 kHz on a good day unmodified, is better than the GE SuperRadio III. I have no problems with switches and capacitors on the GE SRII, even after prolonged periods on the shelf. I have had problems with the RF-2200 variable capacitor on FM, but not on AM. The bandswitch on the RF-2200 needs to be exercised if it hasn't been used in a while. Otherwise there is a signal loss there. You can see it by turning the RF Gain down to the point where the S meter deflection is about one half, and then switching bands back and forth to see if the deflection increases. This gets some of the oxidation off the contacts.
Does anyone have a Sony CF-450? Excellent DX radio also, especially since it has the cassette recorder. Much DX on that barefoot. Even KFI, KNBR, and KNX I heard on that barefoot. Capacitor would need cleaning if I tried to use it again. There was some kind of problem with the signal meter when I took it out of service. It kept pinning in the battery level mode. Didn't know if the shunt came loose in the meter or what. Great FM DXing when there weren't as many stations. Sensitivity was great on FM. Selectivity on FM was good, but not as good as the RF-2200.
Does anyone have a Sony CF-450? Excellent DX radio also, especially since it has the cassette recorder. Much DX on that barefoot. Even KFI, KNBR, and KNX I heard on that barefoot. Capacitor would need cleaning if I tried to use it again. There was some kind of problem with the signal meter when I took it out of service. It kept pinning in the battery level mode. Didn't know if the shunt came loose in the meter or what. Great FM DXing when there weren't as many stations. Sensitivity was great on FM. Selectivity on FM was good, but not as good as the RF-2200.
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Carltheradioguy
Frequent Participant
So you are saying that a Superadio (1 and/or 2) is better than an RF-2200? That's interesting, not being sarcastic
Schroedingers Cat
Star Participant
I think the components like the switches (including bandswitch), variable capacitors, and potentiometers are better in the GE SRII than the Panasonic RF-2200, but a new or properly serviced RF-2200 performs better, with the exception of RITOIE. Image rejection on AM BC is also better on the SRII than the RF-2200.
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So you are saying that a Superadio (1 and/or 2) is better than an RF-2200? That's interesting, not being sarcastic
Fair enough question, no problem.
I think the GE SR1 or 2 are great buys for the money and probably more dependable, hence my saying they would be probably 'better'.
The GE SR1 & 2 were built like tanks (my SR2 took a dive off the top of the refrigerator and still works perfectly -- luckily, it didn't get a scratch, and the only damage was a bent tine on the AC plug which I fixed in three seconds). They are also excellent performers.
The RF2200 -- when working -- may be a hair better (going by the reviews of it, and by what Schroedingers Cat just said), but if you're really into MW DXing you're probably using a loop anyway, and a loop is an equalizer.
That said, RF2200's are classic radios, if you get a good working one -- go for it.
I have a Panasonic RF-B45 and it's one of my best MW performers. Panasonic made good radios.
I found a schematic of the RF2200 online and took a look at it. Wow.
Quite the radio, even by just looking at the schematic. It has an IF chip, with extra IF transistor on MW, and five IF transformers (plus a switched in ceramic filter for extra selectivity) -- no wonder it has a good rep. And the loopstick looks formidable (no idea what its length and width is, though). Definitely looks like it's a DX machine.
Comparatively, the GE Superadio lacks the extra IF amp (although the IF chip is a hot one) and has four IF cans instead of five. Meaning you get a little less sensitivity and a little less selectivity.
My Panasonic RF-B45 has a similar MW set up to the RF2200 -- maybe it's a Panasonic thing to go heavy on the IF stages: two RF amps, two extra IF amps (third one is in the chip itself, a Sanyo LA1207), and five IF cans (plus a couple ceramic filters). It's a very good MW DX machine, it's just too bad the sound is a little on the thinnish side.
Like I said before, Panasonic could make great radios. If you find a RF-B45 or RF-B65 and they work well, they are probably well worth the money.
Quite the radio, even by just looking at the schematic. It has an IF chip, with extra IF transistor on MW, and five IF transformers (plus a switched in ceramic filter for extra selectivity) -- no wonder it has a good rep. And the loopstick looks formidable (no idea what its length and width is, though). Definitely looks like it's a DX machine.
Comparatively, the GE Superadio lacks the extra IF amp (although the IF chip is a hot one) and has four IF cans instead of five. Meaning you get a little less sensitivity and a little less selectivity.
My Panasonic RF-B45 has a similar MW set up to the RF2200 -- maybe it's a Panasonic thing to go heavy on the IF stages: two RF amps, two extra IF amps (third one is in the chip itself, a Sanyo LA1207), and five IF cans (plus a couple ceramic filters). It's a very good MW DX machine, it's just too bad the sound is a little on the thinnish side.
Like I said before, Panasonic could make great radios. If you find a RF-B45 or RF-B65 and they work well, they are probably well worth the money.
Hi all. I live in Palm Coast Florida about 60 miles South of Jacksonville and 70 miles Northeast of Orlando. I have loved AM and FM DXing since I was a kid, and consider the C. Crane CC2E my dream radio! It's the best performing FM/AM portable I have ever used and owned. Regrettably I have never used or seen in person a Panasonic RF2200. Because it's a vintage radio and I lack the skills to perform maintenance on one, I have not sought after one.
I own two CC2E sets, a black one manufactured in September 2013 with firmware version 113 and a titanium one manufactured in October 2015 with firmware version P04. They both exhibit what I consider to be stellar RF performance on both FM and AM. After extensive comparison of both sets, I found their RF performance to be practically identical. Of course my opinion is subjective, but I'm very impressed with the performance that the CC2E delivers!
While I wish I could elaborate on the venerable RF2200, I can't. However, I'd love to share with you my impressions of the CC2E.
I became interested and fascinated with the CC radio when it was first introduced and promoted by talk-radio hosts some time back in the 90s. I bought one and, while I was impressed with its RF performance, I wasn't so much so with its audio. The earliest sets had production and quality control issues as well. My first CC radio, the first model made, had its weather band fail. Numerous others have reported display failures. Thankfully since then these issues appear to have been resolved.
While I had an opportunity to try the subsequent CC Radio Plus and the CC Radio 2, it wasn't until the CC2E was released that I was again tempted to get one. I say "get one" because I wheeled 'n' dealed and got two used ones in pristine condition! I traded away two C Crane CCEP sets for them. The fellow I traded with said he hated the muted tuning on the CC2E. Anyway, I instantly fell in love with the vastly improved audio characteristics of the CC2E, and its further improved RF performance was simply icing on the cake!
Regarding its FM performance, the CC2E is the most sensitive and selective I've ever had the joy to experience! As an example of this, here in Palm Coast is station WNSS 89.3 with its tower less than a mile distant; o.8 miles to be exact. I can receive WKSG 89.5 in Cedar Creek over 47 miles distant clearly with minimal splash from WNSS. Call me naïve, but I'm shocked by this! Additionally, it's not unusual to receive two or more signals discreetly on the same frequency depending on the angled direction of its whip. Simply fantastic!
I'm no less impressed with AM performance of the CC2E. To truly test a radio's abilities on AM, short of doing so under extremely controlled conditions with a signal generator, is to do so during mid-day hours when sky-wave signals are practically nonexistent and distant signals are at their weakest. A fellow DXer friend was floored when, here in Palm Coast, I pulled in WTWB 1570KHz in Auburndale over 108 miles distant! According to Radio Locator, the signal coverage area of WTWB extends out at the most about 40 miles in any direction. Keep in mind that this was via ground-wave in the middle of the day! While the signal was clear and rich, its loudness was apparently limited by the radio's volume. I'm speculating, but the low volume on signals near the noise floor may result from a conservative AGC. Interestingly, the CC2E is still fun to use in the Summer months when static-Inducing lightening is arcing throughout the atmosphere. The bursts of static seem to drive the AGC down instantly and considerably such that they're not jarring, but recovers quickly after the static bursts subside. Also, while any radio will perform better in a low-RFI environment, the CC2E really shines in such settings! I feel in a way that it is designed to kick into high gear and open its ears most widely when it perceives even the slightest signal free of RFI. Again, signals right at the noise floor are joyfully rich and readable!
Not surprisingly, there are often subtle differences, which may be observed from unit to unit. While both of my CC2E sets appear identical in their RF performance, their tonality differs. While they both are very good-sounding sets, the set made in October 2015 has a slightly richer and deeper bass response.
Another final note for now is that C. Crane has updated their latest models so that the time / frequency display can be toggled to frequency / time display.
I own two CC2E sets, a black one manufactured in September 2013 with firmware version 113 and a titanium one manufactured in October 2015 with firmware version P04. They both exhibit what I consider to be stellar RF performance on both FM and AM. After extensive comparison of both sets, I found their RF performance to be practically identical. Of course my opinion is subjective, but I'm very impressed with the performance that the CC2E delivers!
While I wish I could elaborate on the venerable RF2200, I can't. However, I'd love to share with you my impressions of the CC2E.
I became interested and fascinated with the CC radio when it was first introduced and promoted by talk-radio hosts some time back in the 90s. I bought one and, while I was impressed with its RF performance, I wasn't so much so with its audio. The earliest sets had production and quality control issues as well. My first CC radio, the first model made, had its weather band fail. Numerous others have reported display failures. Thankfully since then these issues appear to have been resolved.
While I had an opportunity to try the subsequent CC Radio Plus and the CC Radio 2, it wasn't until the CC2E was released that I was again tempted to get one. I say "get one" because I wheeled 'n' dealed and got two used ones in pristine condition! I traded away two C Crane CCEP sets for them. The fellow I traded with said he hated the muted tuning on the CC2E. Anyway, I instantly fell in love with the vastly improved audio characteristics of the CC2E, and its further improved RF performance was simply icing on the cake!
Regarding its FM performance, the CC2E is the most sensitive and selective I've ever had the joy to experience! As an example of this, here in Palm Coast is station WNSS 89.3 with its tower less than a mile distant; o.8 miles to be exact. I can receive WKSG 89.5 in Cedar Creek over 47 miles distant clearly with minimal splash from WNSS. Call me naïve, but I'm shocked by this! Additionally, it's not unusual to receive two or more signals discreetly on the same frequency depending on the angled direction of its whip. Simply fantastic!
I'm no less impressed with AM performance of the CC2E. To truly test a radio's abilities on AM, short of doing so under extremely controlled conditions with a signal generator, is to do so during mid-day hours when sky-wave signals are practically nonexistent and distant signals are at their weakest. A fellow DXer friend was floored when, here in Palm Coast, I pulled in WTWB 1570KHz in Auburndale over 108 miles distant! According to Radio Locator, the signal coverage area of WTWB extends out at the most about 40 miles in any direction. Keep in mind that this was via ground-wave in the middle of the day! While the signal was clear and rich, its loudness was apparently limited by the radio's volume. I'm speculating, but the low volume on signals near the noise floor may result from a conservative AGC. Interestingly, the CC2E is still fun to use in the Summer months when static-Inducing lightening is arcing throughout the atmosphere. The bursts of static seem to drive the AGC down instantly and considerably such that they're not jarring, but recovers quickly after the static bursts subside. Also, while any radio will perform better in a low-RFI environment, the CC2E really shines in such settings! I feel in a way that it is designed to kick into high gear and open its ears most widely when it perceives even the slightest signal free of RFI. Again, signals right at the noise floor are joyfully rich and readable!
Not surprisingly, there are often subtle differences, which may be observed from unit to unit. While both of my CC2E sets appear identical in their RF performance, their tonality differs. While they both are very good-sounding sets, the set made in October 2015 has a slightly richer and deeper bass response.
Another final note for now is that C. Crane has updated their latest models so that the time / frequency display can be toggled to frequency / time display.
Schroedingers Cat
Star Participant
A few things I've read about the RF-2200.
1) Somebody soaked the whole radio in Ethanol to clean the variable capacitor. Not that brave. But it reportedly worked.
2) RITOIE is a real problem on FM BC in strong signal areas, Also IF Beat rejection (10.6/10.8 MHz).
3) There is a preselector tuning box companion to the RF-2200. Anyone have one? Does it cover FM?
4) GE SR II has better image rejection on AM BC. Sensitivity and selectivity better on RF-2200. GE SR II works better after long storage periods.
5) #1 on my list of radios that I wish I had bought two (or more).
1) Somebody soaked the whole radio in Ethanol to clean the variable capacitor. Not that brave. But it reportedly worked.
2) RITOIE is a real problem on FM BC in strong signal areas, Also IF Beat rejection (10.6/10.8 MHz).
3) There is a preselector tuning box companion to the RF-2200. Anyone have one? Does it cover FM?
4) GE SR II has better image rejection on AM BC. Sensitivity and selectivity better on RF-2200. GE SR II works better after long storage periods.
5) #1 on my list of radios that I wish I had bought two (or more).
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Hi all. I live in Palm Coast Florida about 60 miles South of Jacksonville and 70 miles Northeast of Orlando. I have loved AM and FM DXing since I was a kid, and consider the C. Crane CC2E my dream radio! It's the best performing FM/AM portable I have ever used and owned. Regrettably I have never used or seen in person a Panasonic RF2200. Because it's a vintage radio and I lack the skills to perform maintenance on one, I have not sought after one.
....SNIP.....
I pulled in WTWB 1570KHz in Auburndale over 108 miles distant! According to Radio Locator, the signal coverage area of WTWB extends out at the most about 40 miles in any direction. Keep in mind that this was via ground-wave in the middle of the day! While the signal was clear and rich, its loudness was apparently limited by the radio's volume. I'm speculating, but the low volume on signals near the noise floor may result from a conservative AGC. Interestingly, the CC2E is still fun to use in the Summer months when static-Inducing lightening is arcing throughout the atmosphere. The bursts of static seem to drive the AGC down instantly and considerably such that they're not jarring, but recovers quickly after the static bursts subside. Also, while any radio will perform better in a low-RFI environment, the CC2E really shines in such settings! I feel in a way that it is designed to kick into high gear and open its ears most widely when it perceives even the slightest signal free of RFI. Again, signals right at the noise floor are joyfully rich and readable!
Not surprisingly, there are often subtle differences, which may be observed from unit to unit. While both of my CC2E sets appear identical in their RF performance, their tonality differs. While they both are very good-sounding sets, the set made in October 2015 has a slightly richer and deeper bass response.
Another final note for now is that C. Crane has updated their latest models so that the time / frequency display can be toggled to frequency / time display.
AS the CC2e is undoubtedly made by Sangean, it's probably similar to the PR-D5: SiLabs DSP tuner, twin coil 200 mm loopstick....
And what you are hearing at times is probably conservative AGC. My PR-D5 has slow AGC characteristics.
The noise suppression may be due to the DSP chip alone, or another chip in the audio chain that (at least in the PR-D5) is used for pop noise suppression. Not sure if the CC2E has such a chip, but it's possible. My PR-D5 reduces loud pops (radiator heater switching on, etc.) when playing. whether it's the DSP chip alone, or the extra chip in the audio chain, I don't know.
Glad to hear you're enjoying the radio.
Regarding the CC2E and its tendency to render AM signals barely above the noise floor with low volume, I think the set would benefit from an aggressive automatic volume level system of some sort. I've noticed that when receiving the faintest signals, and despite the low volume level, they are rich and clear! In the day when sky-wave is practically nonexistent, the CC2E really perks up its ears and fetches those distant ground-wave stations with gusto! I routinely pull stations in the daytime that the Radio Locator web site indicates should not be receivable in my location. For the price, the CC2E is one fine portable!
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