WBZ-AM No Longer 1st

DavidZ · May 15, 2015

I listen quite a bit to radio on-line and noticed something in the last couple of days. I'm one of those older listeners that still listens to quite a bit of AM radio. Prior to this week whenever I would bring up the "Listen Live" link for CBS Boston, WBZ-AM was always listed as the first station. Now they are at the end of the list.

I checked a few of the CBS radio stations in other markets (New York, Pittsburgh, Chicago) and it seems the same is happening in those cities as well. Although a subtle change, it seems even CBS has lost confidence in AM radio. And most of their AM stations are heritage stations in their respective markets.

Eli Polonsky · May 15, 2015

AM radio has been on a long slow decline for some time. Simply put, far less people are listening to the AM band overall than even a couple of decades ago. Even the "heritage" AM stations that used to be on the top of the charts are now getting only fair to mediocre ratings, and "heritage" doesn't matter if their FM stations are getting better ratings and revenue. Also, AM listenership is aging, the band is now largely irrelevant to the majority of people under about 50 years old, making it more difficult to get sponsorships. Many new types of FM radio receivers no longer even include AM. Listen to the ads on WBZ (AM) nowadays, there are still some of the car dealers, but otherwise they're mostly for life insurance policies, assisted living complexes, implant dentistry, etc... targeted to senior citizens. Broadcasting companies are going to spotlight their stations that get the highest ratings and attract the sponsor desired younger demographics, which are now on the FM band regardless of the "heritage" of their AM stations.

Deleted User · May 15, 2015

ok lets discuss apples, oranges, and pineapples.

No longer first in what? The 6+ PPM's? Those numbers mean exactly zero,they really have no statistical value..

As a friend of mine in Tampa said 'those are the beauty contest numbers'.

What demographic are you talking about and where are you getting your data? If you have the real data don't even try to post it as the moderators will delete it as it is copyrighted data.

Males? Females? 18-34? Cume, AQH, TSL?

Are the people with the meters getting the digital tones to register them listening? There has been a huge discussion about the possibility of meters not picking up data, and there are companies rolling out equipment to augment the data burst so it will be picked up.

Kiss108 was the ratings king for years, and up until not too long ago they were pulling 10's in the 6+ PPM's, and now 2 years later, if that, they are nowhere near the top, but I bet they bill well.

And in this business that is what counts, nobody cares about ratings, it is "we can deliver your message to these people, write us a check"

Wimmmex · May 16, 2015

MRBIboredop said:
ok lets discuss apples, oranges, and pineapples.

No longer first in what? The 6+ PPM's? Those numbers mean exactly zero,they really have no statistical value..

That's not true....they are an overall look at listener ship and includes all demos and genders. They tend to be a bit top heavy with 55+ers...and used to be a bit bottom heavy with teens (I don't know if that's the case anymore)

However, when specific demos are not available, I'll look at 6+ #'s over nothing any day.

They show over all listener trends...and rarely does a station go up a lot in their demo and down in the 6+ #'s/ (The opposite is true as well, rarely does a station show big drops in their 6+ #'s and go up in their target demo.

You have to read 6+ #'s with a grain of salt, and not start deducing minutia.

From a sales perspective, they may not look at them because they have access to specific demo's and cells.......But they are real #'s...and they include everyone...and as someone in the programming end of the building...it's better than noting.

DavidEduardo · May 16, 2015

Wimmmex said:
That's not true....they are an overall look at listener ship and includes all demos and genders.

But the purpose of ratings is to be a metric to establish pricing for radio sales. Since neither 6 to 17 nor 55+ are of any significant value in radio sales, 6+ ratings or 12+ ratings are of no value at all. And that is why Nielsen gives them away for free.

They tend to be a bit top heavy with 55+ers...and used to be a bit bottom heavy with teens (I don't know if that's the case anymore)

The ratings have never been "top heavy" with anything. All ratings done in the last half-century are proportional samples, meaning that every age cell, every ethnic group, every income and educational level are sampled in proportion to their percentage in the general population. And if the sample of any group is slightly off, it is weighted up or down to insure proportionality.

However, when specific demos are not available, I'll look at 6+ #'s over nothing any day.

Nothing wrong with that. But just keep in mind that advertisers and stations have little or no use for 12+ or 6+.

They show over all listener trends...and rarely does a station go up a lot in their demo and down in the 6+ #'s/

That is not true. It happens all the time. Particularly, it happens as stations with aging demos adjust music or programming to be more 25-54 focused. The result is generally a loss in 6+ while the 25-54 expands, sometimes significantly.

(The opposite is true as well, rarely does a station show big drops in their 6+ #'s and go up in their target demo.

Also not true. As stations improve their core demo performance, they may become more focused and lose the spillage listeners while growing nicely in the core.

From a sales perspective, they may not look at them because they have access to specific demo's and cells.......But they are real #'s...and they include everyone...and as someone in the programming end of the building...it's better than noting.

I don't know of any programmers that look at 12+ (or 6+) when the books come out. In fact, I try to caution against even opening them as it distracts programmers from their format's focus.

DavidEduardo · May 16, 2015

MRBIboredop said:
Are the people with the meters getting the digital tones to register them listening? There has been a huge discussion about the possibility of meters not picking up data, and there are companies rolling out equipment to augment the data burst so it will be picked up.

Not quite accurate.

There is one company, related to Telos and the Omnia, that produces a box that trys to "enhance" the audio content that allows the data burst to be masked. It does not augment the data burst, which I believe would be a violation of the Nielsen contract.

The box, called the Voltaire, tries to "pump up" audio in the frequency bands that the PPM encoder uses so that the encoder will find enough audio density to mask the data burst. In essence, it expands audio so that it can "cover up" a data burst where, normally, a burst would not be emitted.

The controversy is related to whether distorting your audio may lose more audience than getting a few more data bursts into each minute.

Wimmmex · May 16, 2015

DavidEduardo said:
But the purpose of ratings is to be a metric to establish pricing for radio sales.

I don't establish pricing...I just want to know how many people are listening.

DavidEduardo said:
The ratings have never been "top heavy" with anything.

Yes they do.....The 6+ numbers carry a significant amount of listening by older people....because older people have been known to listen to a lot of radio. Stations that have a significant 55+ audience appear to do very well in the 6+ numbers...

DavidEduardo said:
Also not true. As stations improve their core demo performance, they may become more focused

I'll stand by my original statement: : rarely does a station go up a lot in their demo and down in the 6+ #'s. If you'd like to show me a station that went from 1st to 10th 6+ that went up it's target demo...I'll be willing to look at it.

DavidEduardo said:
I don't know of any programmers that look at 12+ (or 6+) when the books come out

That's the key....when you don't have a book for a particular market...or when you are at a station that doesn't subscribe (Salem?), then 6+ #'s are better than nothing.....

DavidEduardo · May 16, 2015

Wimmmex said:
(To my comment that ratings are never "top heavy" in any demo or cell)

Yes they do.....The 6+ numbers carry a significant amount of listening by older people....because older people have been known to listen to a lot of radio. Stations that have a significant 55+ audience appear to do very well in the 6+ numbers...

Actually, 55+ listen a little less than the heavier radio listeners in 25-54.

Simply, when you look at 6+ numbers, the effect of having an increasing number of seniors in the general public is being felt. As the lifespan of Americans increases, there will be more and more total listening by seniors. But since they don't listen quite as much as younger people, the TSL per person in that group is less.

Seniors are measured and weighted in proportion to the population in each market in that age group.

I'll stand by my original statement: : rarely does a station go up a lot in their demo and down in the 6+ #'s. If you'd like to show me a station that went from 1st to 10th 6+ that went up it's target demo...I'll be willing to look at it.

Over the 45 years that I have been using Arbitron / Nielsen, I have seen (and been present at) enough stations that did such changes to recognize that it happens regularly. The largest one I recall was when I reprogrammed WQBA in Miami and it dropped about 10 rank positions in 12+ but doubled its 25-54 listening.

Eli Polonsky · May 17, 2015

MRBIboredop said:
ok lets discuss apples, oranges, and pineapples.

No longer first in what? The 6+ PPM's? Those numbers mean exactly zero,they really have no statistical value..

The original posters point was that WBZ (AM) is no longer listed as the top (what he called "1st") station on the CBS Boston "Listen Live" link station menu, and that they have moved it to the bottom of that menu. He wasn't quoting, or referring to, any ratings numbers or rankings at all.

semoochie · May 17, 2015

DavidEduardo said:
Actually, 55+ listen a little less than the heavier radio listeners in 25-54.

Simply, when you look at 6+ numbers, the effect of having an increasing number of seniors in the general public is being felt. As the lifespan of Americans increases, there will be more and more total listening by seniors. But since they don't listen quite as much as younger people, the TSL per person in that group is less.

Seniors are measured and weighted in proportion to the population in each market in that age group.

Over the 45 years that I have been using Arbitron / Nielsen, I have seen (and been present at) enough stations that did such changes to recognize that it happens regularly. The largest one I recall was when I reprogrammed WQBA in Miami and it dropped about 10 rank positions in 12+ but doubled its 25-54 listening.

I would think that just about any of the top rated Beautiful Music stations that changed formats during the first wave, early 1980s or second, late 80s, was in that situation.

DavidZ · May 17, 2015

Eli Polonsky said:
The original posters point was that WBZ (AM) is no longer listed as the top (what he called "1st") station on the CBS Boston "Listen Live" link station menu, and that they have moved it to the bottom of that menu. He wasn't quoting, or referring to, any ratings numbers or rankings at all.

Thank you for setting everyone straight. I simply stated that CBS has moved their AM listen live stations to the end of the line as you pointed out.

spt87 · May 17, 2015

I really wouldn't read much into this from a CBS strategy perspective. Until recently, the listen live link only pointed to WBZ-AM and WBZ-FM - the music stations were down at the bottom of the page on a separate link. If you look at the banner of the web page, the CBS Local sites only list the TV, news radio and sports radio stations. They don't put any of their music stations in the banner.

If anything adding the music stations on the link is just an attempt to ensure people know those stations can be streamed. Probably most of the people going to CBS local are looking for news and sports info and are more likely to stream those radio stations - anyone who notices the music station streams may just become a bonus listener on a sister station and likely will still be streaming news and sports radio. I think WBZ-AM being at the end of a list of 5 stations - all on the same line - is not a big deal and may reflect that it is streamed the most so people need to look at all the options to find the one they want.

The heritage AM's still doing well are the ones that have remained consistently well run with a lot of local content. The CBS AM's are a good example. WBZ-AM was in the number 2 slot in the last rating period ahead of everything but WROR (and what demos does anyone think WROR has). I'm sure the two high profile trials going on locally have been a boost which highlights people know where to go on the radio for news. If the teeny boppers are heading to Pandora and Spotify in any big way we may see the news/talk/sports stations be the last standing.

Now, I'll agree that a lot of heritage AMs have faded over the last 10 years - think WABC, WJR, WRKO, WLS, etc. But most of these have been subject to a lot of nickel and diming, been bought out repeatedly, are owned by companies with high debt load or have other financial factors (like an expensive Red Sox contract for Entercom Boston) and have greatly reduced their in house, local production and news operations (with many just outsourcing news and having no in house news room although they try to make it sound like they do). The owners of these stations have pursued a circle the drain strategy and they are getting the result.

This has been going on for years - successful stations sold to a buyer financing the purchase with little or no down payment, then the station melts down as the new owner cuts it to bone to try to keep up with the loan payments. The FCC should have put some financial conditions/debt restrictions on license transfers years ago to prevent this type of thing.

TheBigA · May 17, 2015

spt87 said:
The owners of these stations have pursued a circle the drain strategy and they are getting the result.

It could be compared to a chicken & egg debate. What came first: The drop in audience or the programming cuts. Those of us who watch these things will tell you that successful stations and operations don't get "nickel & dimed." If you're the cash cow, you get left alone. If you're doing well, no one second guesses you. But the minute you start dropping, that's when the meddlers appear, that's when the bean counters show up, and that's when cutbacks begin.

What will it take to bring listeners back to AM? Lots of investment in talent and programming? Really? I think radio owners could spend billions on staff and content, and Gen Y is still going to get their news from Twitter. That's not going to change because of the money radio companies spend on AM. It has nothing to do with the amount of debt the radio companies have. And by the way, compare the radio debt with that of the federal government. I'd suggest the FCC is in no position to restrict someone else's debt.

What really needs to happen is come up with a viable solution to the audio problem. AM radio sounds like CB radio. It gives new meaning to the phrase breaker breaker. The FCC needs to do its job and control the interference, expand the bandwidth, and improve signal quality. That's what the FCC could do. But it won't.

Wimmmex · May 18, 2015

DavidEduardo said:
Seniors are measured and weighted in proportion to the population in each market in that age group.

Once again Eduardo, you are missing the point...which had nothing to do with "weighting".

DavidEduardo said:
Over the 45 years that I have been using Arbitron / Nielsen, I have seen (and been present at) enough stations that did such changes to recognize that it happens regularly.

And in my 40 years of broadcasting, I have seen that it happens rarely.

But if you would like to give everyone a history lesson, feel post the data/book/demo/date in one of those rare occasions for our enjoyment.

DavidEduardo · May 18, 2015

Wimmmex said:
Once again Eduardo, you are missing the point...which had nothing to do with "weighting".

And in my 40 years of broadcasting, I have seen that it happens rarely.

But if you would like to give everyone a history lesson, feel post the data/book/demo/date in one of those rare occasions for our enjoyment.

I can think offhand of quite a few.

I already mentioned WQBA in Miami where we blew off the geezer demos and dropped a number of 12+ rank positions but more than doubled the 25-54. Did similar things with WADO, KTNQ, WIND and KESS.

Blew out the old leaning news blocks at WKAQ and lost tons of 55+ but grew the 25-54 considerably.

WERC (AM) Birmingham in 1973. Made station what would be called Hot AC. Blew off all the 45+ but lept up in 18-44.

103.9 & 98.3 in LA in 2000. Changed from urban AC to Spanish language gold, and 12+ dropped but the 18-49 more than doubled. Did the same with KLNO, KCOR-FM, KOVE, KBRG, KLQV and a couple of others.

Not mine, but I think quite a few Jack stations like KCBS in LA blew off a lot of out of demo listeners, dropping in 12+ while improving the 25-54 or 18-49 core.

Another recent case was the morphing of WDUV in Tampa which adjusted and shed a lot of 65+ listening and a bunch of 55+ too. But from over a decade around 15th in 25-54, they are now around 3rd in the demo! A beautiful example of blowing off audiences that could not be monetized, increasing the younger demos and doing better.

My best personal anecdote, though, is sacrificing a very strong morning show on Z-101 to put on a heavy talk and interactive show called "The Morning Government" We lost all our teens and younger adults. But in 6 months, the core adult audience was #1 and by the end of the year it had larger audiences than even any national TV show. 30 years later, and with one of the two original hosts, the show is still a dominant #1 in the market and on a national network of FMs.

DavidEduardo · May 18, 2015

semoochie said:
I would think that just about any of the top rated Beautiful Music stations that changed formats during the first wave, early 1980s or second, late 80s, was in that situation.

Good point. Quite a few "Beautifuls" segued to lite formats and lost all the geezers. Yet many improved so much in 26-54 that they actually were in a position to bill better than before.

If course, as many failed to make the transition and eventually went way out of format.

Wimmmex · May 18, 2015

DavidEduardo said:
I can think offhand of quite a few.

I already mentioned WQBA in Miami

Blew out the old leaning news blocks at WKAQ a

WERC (AM) Birmingham in 1973. M

103.9 & 98.3 in LA in 2000. C

1973 WERC?

2000 in LA?

....and I think it was over 10 years ago you were at WQBA, right?

I think his shows that it happens rarely.

But my overall point was that in the absence of any specific demos/cells, etc.....6+ is better than nothing.

Your milage and opinions may vary.

DavidEduardo · May 18, 2015

Wimmmex said:
1973 WERC?

2000 in LA?

....and I think it was over 10 years ago you were at WQBA, right?

I think his shows that it happens rarely.

Except for the WDUV reference, I was speaking of stations I was directly involved in. If I can bring up several dozen in just my own experience, then it is actually not uncommon.

The WDUV things happened in the last 18 months, and is a major example of a station that was too old shedding older listeners, going down a bit in 12+ but gaining significantly in 25-54.

Throughout the years, a common technique for Top 40 / CHR stations was to make a bit bang with teens, and then build out the 18-34 even if it meant blowing off the teens. The teens caused the buzz, and then the real target of 18-34 women could be built. The story-book example of this was the WRBQ-Power Pig battle in Tampa, and the story has been replicated countless times over the years. A recent example would be Real 92.3 in Los Angeles this year where they did a commercial free month or so that attracted younger listeners; then they added a morning show that did not have the same appeal of the non-stop music but which was designed to improve 18-49.

Wimmmex · May 18, 2015

DavidEduardo said:
Except for the WDUV reference, I was speaking of stations I was directly involved in. If I can bring up several dozen in just my own experience, then it is actually not uncommon.

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OK...add WDUV reference...my points still stands.

rarely does a station go up a lot in their demo and down in the 6+

Now if you would like to debate the definition of the words rarely and a lot.

My main point again "However, when specific demos are not available, I'll look at 6+ #'s over nothing any day."

You are free to agree or disagree with my opinion.

WLYNWAZNgm · May 18, 2015

I knew that a few people were listening to us, online, from our server. What I did not know, until recently, was that many
more than I thought were listening to us via tunein.com (service called Tunein Ampifier) The numbers were eye-opening!

WBZ-AM No Longer 1st

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