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bidding for 101.1 on Whidbey Island
- Thread starter Goldilocks94941
- Start date
Rob Piotrowski
Star Participant
103.3 should relay the HD2 "Mountain" signal, and not Hot 103.7. Who cares about repeating a station that is sitting on Cougar Mountain, 15 miles from Seattle? I've seen HD2s and HD3s get 250w translators before.
And if Entercom cries bloody murder about flipping the 103.3 translator, then just turn off the lights and shut it off. There is very little money to be made from K277AE at the moment. And how many workers in Downtown Seattle actually listen to 103.3 and the simulcast of KHTP?
-crainbebo
And if Entercom cries bloody murder about flipping the 103.3 translator, then just turn off the lights and shut it off. There is very little money to be made from K277AE at the moment. And how many workers in Downtown Seattle actually listen to 103.3 and the simulcast of KHTP?
-crainbebo
fordranger797
Star Participant
For anyone to be interested they'd have to make it clear to their audience that the translator exists.
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103.7 is located on West Tiger Mt. There is a physical shadow caused by Cougar Mt. into downtown. That translator was intended to fill in that shadow into Downtown Seattle. Actually, I installed it back when I was the Chief Engineer at KMTT. There is no way of knowing whether anyone uses that translator, but what difference does it make? That translator doesn't cost much to run, and helps a documented situation.
Ok, that makes some sense, but if that's the case, then why don't more stations have translators downtown? I wish I was going over to Spokane to check out the shadowing effect in CDA and compare it with what Tiger has to deal with. I have heard how valuable KZZU's translator over there could be, but I've never really compared the two areas. I do know that Tiger stations aren't as good downtown as Cougar stations, but imo they are still quite listenable.
Because there aren't enough allocated frequencies to have more translators downtown. There may be first, or co-channel interference potential to full power stations in the area that wouldn't be permitted.
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Ever heard of "on channel boosters"? KJET in South Bend uses KJET-FM1 also at 105.7 to serve Grays Harbor County due to multipath from hills.
All Seattle stations can use boosters on the waterfront, just on their respective frequencies only. I.E. KZOK-FM1 on 102.5. KPLZ-FM1 on 101.5. KMPS-FM1 on 94.1.
-crainbebo
All Seattle stations can use boosters on the waterfront, just on their respective frequencies only. I.E. KZOK-FM1 on 102.5. KPLZ-FM1 on 101.5. KMPS-FM1 on 94.1.
-crainbebo
It would be interesting to hear KJET without that booster. It's my understanding however, that boosters only work when there is no or very little signal in a particular area. If for example the Tiger signals were pretty much non-existant downtown, then a booster would work, but not when the main signal is reasonably listenable. My suggestion would be to move everyone to Gold Mountain, as I've had no issues anywhere I've taken my G8 with 91.7. That being said, the one place I've heard those signals are bad is on the eastside, and I've never taken the G8 over there.
On channel jammers have already been tried in this area with 100.7 when the transmitter was on Queen Anne hill, 100.7 had an on channel booster in Edmonds. As stated earlier, on channel boosters only work if the area served by the booster has little main signal. On channel Booster do nothing for a main signal that reasonable signal, but conflicted with Multipath like downtown Seattle.
106.9 had it's transmitter on Golf Mountain, a very nice drive to the top. But yes it does not play well on the east side which is why 106.9 moved to Downtown then to Cougar. I commuted to Gold Mountain when 106.9 was there. Great views of Seattle downtown, and to the south. I do think that if everyone moved to Gold Mountain more broadcast engineers would be playing golf. The tee off point would be the top of the mountain.
An FM signal with more ERP will have more signal in areas that create multipath, the higher power signal bounces off surfaces better than a lower ERP station like 91.7 which might give the impression that the 91.7 has a better signal but it's just that it does not have enough power to create the multipath of the higher power station. 91.7 does not have as good building penetration as a station with more ERP, so there are a lot of trade off's when running a lower ERP, less perceived multipath on a lower ERP station is one effect. Raise the ERP of the same station and you get more Multipath.
When 106.9 moved to Gold Mountain for it's transmitter site in the mid 80's, shadow studies have since shown that West Tiger and Cougar a better listenable signal over the Seattle/Bellevue metro area and some places south like south lake Washington. Using shadow studies is much easier and less money than just packing every one up and moving to Gold Mountain to see if a site is better than another. Stations spend money on modeling the signal which is more efficient than guessing that a location might be good and trying it. 106.9 did a lot of modeling once on Gold Mountain and eventually ended up on Cougar. 106.9 shifted the antenna on the tower 2 times. By shifting I mean rotating the antenna on the tower leg it was mounted to, not moving it higher or lower. The antenna was leg mounted on the leg closest to Seattle and then rotated twice before they gave up. The adjustments were based on a pattern study of how the antenna performed on the tower. The antenna was 3/4 up the tower so it had to deal with pattern distortion from the tower itself which was why they rotated the antenna on the tower leg to get the most power pointed at Seattle. But they could not over come the shadow effects of Gold Mountain which were worse for the target audience in the east side and parts south like the Kent valley.
My suggestion is that they leave the FM's where they are. If you want to give FM broadcast stations some good advice, do some signal modeling from the proposed location and present it here if it shows improvement.
Saying that on channels boosters would work in Downtown Seattle is like saying a successful format in Detroit will work in Seattle if you just rubber stamp it. But your not taking into consideration of the makeup of the markets listener. Or in the case of an on channel booster the terrain.
Ever heard of "Arm Chair Engineering?" A dart board is not a reliable modeling technique.
106.9 had it's transmitter on Golf Mountain, a very nice drive to the top. But yes it does not play well on the east side which is why 106.9 moved to Downtown then to Cougar. I commuted to Gold Mountain when 106.9 was there. Great views of Seattle downtown, and to the south. I do think that if everyone moved to Gold Mountain more broadcast engineers would be playing golf. The tee off point would be the top of the mountain.
An FM signal with more ERP will have more signal in areas that create multipath, the higher power signal bounces off surfaces better than a lower ERP station like 91.7 which might give the impression that the 91.7 has a better signal but it's just that it does not have enough power to create the multipath of the higher power station. 91.7 does not have as good building penetration as a station with more ERP, so there are a lot of trade off's when running a lower ERP, less perceived multipath on a lower ERP station is one effect. Raise the ERP of the same station and you get more Multipath.
When 106.9 moved to Gold Mountain for it's transmitter site in the mid 80's, shadow studies have since shown that West Tiger and Cougar a better listenable signal over the Seattle/Bellevue metro area and some places south like south lake Washington. Using shadow studies is much easier and less money than just packing every one up and moving to Gold Mountain to see if a site is better than another. Stations spend money on modeling the signal which is more efficient than guessing that a location might be good and trying it. 106.9 did a lot of modeling once on Gold Mountain and eventually ended up on Cougar. 106.9 shifted the antenna on the tower 2 times. By shifting I mean rotating the antenna on the tower leg it was mounted to, not moving it higher or lower. The antenna was leg mounted on the leg closest to Seattle and then rotated twice before they gave up. The adjustments were based on a pattern study of how the antenna performed on the tower. The antenna was 3/4 up the tower so it had to deal with pattern distortion from the tower itself which was why they rotated the antenna on the tower leg to get the most power pointed at Seattle. But they could not over come the shadow effects of Gold Mountain which were worse for the target audience in the east side and parts south like the Kent valley.
My suggestion is that they leave the FM's where they are. If you want to give FM broadcast stations some good advice, do some signal modeling from the proposed location and present it here if it shows improvement.
Saying that on channels boosters would work in Downtown Seattle is like saying a successful format in Detroit will work in Seattle if you just rubber stamp it. But your not taking into consideration of the makeup of the markets listener. Or in the case of an on channel booster the terrain.
Ever heard of "Arm Chair Engineering?" A dart board is not a reliable modeling technique.
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Hmm I haven't heard about the signal problems in the Kent valley. When 91.7 signs ack on, I'll have to make an excuse to get over to Bellevue with a radio and hear this for myself. I've tried 91.7 from Ocean Shores, east of Raymond, up on Camano Island, and of course here at home in Edmonds. With the exception of here at home and that may have just been perception, KXOT seemed stronger than any of the Tiger or Cougar signals. Do you recall what 106.9's ERP was from Gold?
It looks like 100KW @ 250 meters HAAT.
106.9 was 100KW but had beam tilt so the actual ERP into the horizon was 97-95KW. Gold Mountain always played well into Edmonds (right across the water) and north. There is always the school of thought that lower power equals less multipath and a perception the signal is stronger. When KXOT returns to the air drive on the Valley freeway 167 from Renton to Pacific and see how the signal compares to West Tiger or Cougar. Once your on the Kent hill it's ok but every time you drop in a valley on the East side, Gold Mountain has problems.
91.7 has the calls KYFQ now and is 4.3KW from Gold Mountain. But the real fact is that if your trying to reach the Seattle Metro area West Tiger and Cougar have better coverage. If your trying to cover south sound, Gold mountain looks good. It also played well up the north sound but the Seattle metro area on the East side and the Kent Valley not so well.
I loved it when 106.9 was on Gold Mountain Beautiful drive, lots of wild rhododendrons, put a lot of miles on the 4wheel drive on those logging roads. But the signal was not as sellable as it was from downtown and now Cougar.
91.7 has the calls KYFQ now and is 4.3KW from Gold Mountain. But the real fact is that if your trying to reach the Seattle Metro area West Tiger and Cougar have better coverage. If your trying to cover south sound, Gold mountain looks good. It also played well up the north sound but the Seattle metro area on the East side and the Kent Valley not so well.
I loved it when 106.9 was on Gold Mountain Beautiful drive, lots of wild rhododendrons, put a lot of miles on the 4wheel drive on those logging roads. But the signal was not as sellable as it was from downtown and now Cougar.
Good Lord, Richard. No, not all stations can use FM boosters in all situations. As Steve said, sort of, on channel booster installations are tricky at best. In spite of syncing oscillators with GPS and delaying the main transmission audio to match the booster, a zone of multipath is always created where at the points where the field strength between the translator and booster cross at similar levels, which could be a significant portion of real estate affected. Its just physics really.
When designing an FM booster, one needs to locate for terrain shielding between the main transmitter and booster but even then, there is always an area where the field strength of booster and transmitter overlap. Because of natural propagation delay, severe multipath to the listener can occur in this area. For downtown Seattle, let's see.. the multipath area would be East to about Lake Washington. Last time I checked, there was a lot of desirable listeners in that zone. Probably not a good idea for a station to pursue, doing more harm than good.
I suggest you stick with your DX'ing and leave engineering to the engineers.
KJET's problem in Aberdeen is not multi-path; it's "lackopath" (Cosi Hill blocks the main signal from Holy Cross). And I can confirm that boosters are not what they're cracked up to be. Kelly nailed it. In fact, we now have a Construction Permit to move KJET main to Cosi Hill south of Aberdeen, and we will eliminate the booster, which helped us in Aberdeen-Hoquiam, but killed us in areas east and west of the port cities. We will lose in southern Pacific County, but gain a nice signal everywhere else, with 38 kw.
Ah 167, haven't been out that way in years, e'll see if I can get o there sometime soon. If it weren't for Vancouver on the same frequencies, Sout Mountain would do well up in the north sound as well, had KYNW strong with the water maybe 30 feet in front of me on Camano Island last summer. I think I may have had them in stereo at one point, can't quite remember.
fordranger797
Star Participant
They're on Capitol Peak with the semi-recent addition of 88.1. As for South, I think KOMO-FM had to add a translator in the Kent Valley on 102.1, and a booster in Tukwilla.
https://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?call=KOMO
I've always been able to hear KYNW well to the north of Seattle. I've heard that Capitol Peak is positioned in an optimal position for signals to travel up the sound; pretty impressive.
And since I know that someone will complain about this thread has been derailed, so here you go:
CFMI 101.1 had been broadcasting at 75kw from 686 metres HAAT, but they recently moved to 368 metres at 100kw. I'm curious as to whether or not this loss of LOS will give the new the new 101.1 station better coverage around their proposed broadcast area, or if the new ERP output change of CFMI is enough to cause problems with the new 101.1 signal anyway (or perhaps there is enough space that it'll make no difference what so ever. I'm no engineer, but i'm genuinely curious).
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I had an FM that was about 1000 meters on a mountainside above a very compact market where the center of the desired population was only about 6 to 10 km from the site in the horizontal plane. We could not go higher on the mountain as that would have put the transmitter at above the maximum altitude of the components, and we could not go lower as we would have hit lots of surrounding mountains and hills, as the market was an irregularly shaped elongated bowl.
The power was a nominal 10 kw ERP. Huge multipath. We did mechanical beam tilt, using a winch on the antenna to try different angles. Huge multipath still. Reduced ERP to around 2 kw, major improvement. Then we decided to go with only vertical polarization, increased power a bit and found a sweet spot!
Obviously, this is empirical evidence that your statement is accurate, and applies in a variety of situations. The trade off at some point is building penetration.
Joe_Capitano
Leading Participant
That should be KBRC. Even then, they aren't on the translator anymore. It's now KAPS.
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