Does anyone besides me think AC today is a joke?

oldies76 said:

Consultants like these will always defend the industry at all cost. As music fans (Music Lover) we believe what we believe in and so will they. They disagree with us and we disagree with them. No one (including them) wins.

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The consultants and programmers are keeping their jobs. That's a win for our side.

We want large playlists, they want 300, etc..etc..etc..etc....

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Another of your disingenuous statements, my friend. We have explained to you numerous times that we have no preconceived number of titles in our minds, and we rely on the music testing to tell us which songs are universally liked by the target demographic ("universally" meaning "the vast majority", before you resurrect the "every song is someone's favorite" line) to determine playlist size. As David has said many times, if 250 songs test well, we'll play those 250 songs. If it's 300, it's 300. If it's 342, we play 342.

I'm going to remind you of something I said in another thread. There is nothing wrong with you liking a broader selection of songs than the ones that get airplay. (Remember when I told you how all over the place my own MP3 player is?) But radio is a mass medium, not a personal MP3 player. We program to the masses, not to the much smaller group of "music fans", as you self-describe.

Radio is an aural comfort food. People listen expecting to hear only the biggest hits. That is what makes your listening expectations atypical; you are at odds with what the actual audience expects. To play the additional songs you've asked for time and again would be the equivalent of giving someone a Twinkie™ with asparagus filling.

This is the business model radio is built on, and your complaining is akin to telling McDonalds their business model is flawed because they don't sell pizza.

It's an endless circle and it will never end.

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We were willing to end it a long time ago. It has been the insistence of yourself, and others with your mindset, that radio changes its business model to suit your interests and tastes, that has kept the circle rolling. Please understand that radio is not an audio history book of the music business. It is an entertainment medium which is obligated, both to the listeners and to the stockholders, to deliver a product the majority will listen to. You have proven, over and over in that endless circle, that you are not part of that majority ... which is fine, but stop telling us how to do our jobs when you are not part of the audience we are trying to serve.

May I suggest XMfan, a site very much dedicated to fans like you and I with very little "interference". (Now that I said that, Big A will probably show up there as well). Check out the decades channel, many posts about different genres of music and stations. There is also the Casey Kasem posts as well there. I occasionally post there, when something interesting comes up. In fact other RD music fans post there also, some under different names. Give it a shot, maybe that'll end the "ad nauseum" agony of us being portrayed as usually "wrong", "selfish" and "outliers" by others here.

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Sirius/XM is a different business model from terrestrial radio, the primary difference being that its listeners pay directly for the service. If there was such a thing as subscription terrestrial radio, maybe we could do the same thing. But what you have been asking for is for a free service (terrestrial) to program like a premium service (satellite) and your failure to make that distinction is a root failure of your arguments.

I, for one, am quite content to leave you and yours alone at XMFan. I am not part of their business model and would not be qualified to comment. And the ad nauseum "agony" ends here whenever you accept that you are indeed "wrong" (in not recognizing the different business models), "selfish" (by demanding an unwarranted change in terrestrial radio's business model) and "outliers" (nothing more than the factual statement that your concept of programming is outside that which is expected by our audiences). That you took those as insults showed, sadly, that you have been unable to see the discussion from a point of view detached from your own. The inability to take an unemotional view has done more to increase the lifespan of the endless circle than anything we professionals have had to say.

When this thread started, I wondered how long it would take to become an accusation of the professional programmers to be accused of wanting short playlists. And not surprisingly, it took only one day for you to mention "200 titles", oldies ... and no one else mentioned playlist size until today, when you did again. That's your note, Johnny One Note, and maybe if you stick to XMFan you won't feel the need to come here and play that note again ... ad nauseum.

oldies76 said:

Consultants like these will always defend the industry at all cost. As music fans (Music Lover) we believe what we believe in and so will they. They disagree with us and we disagree with them. No one (including them) wins.

We want large playlists, they want 300, etc..etc..etc..etc.... We music fans have been dealing with the radio pros for years on these boards (myself since 2007). Nothing will ever change, heck I realized that years ago. And yes, I've threatened to leave several times, but really what's the point in leaving? Others down the road will come and argue the same stuff that we've argued before. It's an endless circle and it will never end.

May I suggest XMfan, a site very much dedicated to fans like you and I with very little "interference". Check out the DECADES DISCUSSIONS, many posts about different genres of music and stations. There is also the Casey Kasem posts as well there. I occasionally post there, when something interesting comes up. In fact other RD music fans post there also, some under different names. Give it a shot, maybe that'll end the "ad nauseum" agony of us being portrayed as usually "wrong", "selfish" and "outliers" by others here.

It's really too bad. They just can't go for that..."No Can Do!"

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I don't really see how having the business realities explained is "defending the industry at all costs." Is that a fair descriptiion?

In reality, don't most people in business want to bolster their bottom line? If there were really some glaring opportunity to do some of the things suggested, quite often, then surely someone, somewhere, would have shown how it could be done, and be hailed as a genius along the way. But they haven't. And perhaps there's a reason for that. If there were, I don't know, 1000 songs in a given genre that the bulk of the target audience wanted to hear, then 1000 songs would be played. But how do you justify driving large blocks of people away with songs they've actually told you they don't want to hear?

What's perhaps more interesting, or confounding, is the insistence that terrestrial radio, by definition a medium for the masses, can somehow succeed by catering to the desires of a fringe--vocal, but still fringe--group. In this day and age, especially, what is the complaint? You can build playlists on a variety of services to you heart's content--some paid, some free. So why complain that one option, of many, doesn't cater to a very particular taste?

Bob Eubanks said:

So why complain that one option, of many, doesn't cater to a very particular taste?

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Not everyone is into the alternatives you mention.

There are people out there who would like to hear genres such as jazz, folk, blues, classical, easy listening, etc. on AM/FM radio. Listeners without access to a computer or a hi-tech phone are out of luck. What Music Lover and others are pointing out is the lack of musical diversity on terrestrial radio.

K.M. Richards said:

When this thread started, I wondered how long it would take to become an accusation of the professional programmers to be accused of wanting short playlists. And not surprisingly, it took only one day for you to mention "200 titles", oldies ... and no one else mentioned playlist size until today, when you did again.

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It's not an accusation, it's the fact that classic hits programmers accept the test results and only those. If it's 300, then it's 300. They (that L.A. station) are playing it way too safe. I do not see a real problem in adding a few hundred OTHER titles to compliment these (during off peak and weekends) and play them along with the tested ones per your clock example you gave me a few months ago, which I do agree with.

Btw, I only posted as a response to the fact that Music Lover, another enthusiast, has threatened to leave due to a response earlier. If anything we all feel compelled to leave.

I have nothing else to add. You can breathe a sigh of relief now.

K.M. Richards said:

before you resurrect the "every song is someone's favorite" line)

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Well since you resurrected it....

It's a statement that I will always stand by 100% and agree with because it's true......100% of the time.

From "Afternoon Delight" to "Hotel California", from "Delta Dawn" to "Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue" to "Brown Eyed Girl"....are favorites to someone.

oldies76 said:

It's not an accusation, it's the fact that classic hits programmers accept the test results and only those. If it's 300, then it's 300.

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They don't do it blindly. They don't do it for personal reasons. They do it because it works. It works consistently, and extremely well. If it didn't work so well, we'd have no reason to continue to accept it. No reason at all.

Don't blame radio. Blame radio listeners who continue to tune in, even with a multitude of choices. No one is forcing ANYone (including you) to listen.

Music Lover said:

Because I'm sick and tired of the "no can do" attitude here towards bringing these artists and genres back to the airwaves, I will be leaving this forum.

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Have a nice day.

TheBigA said:

Have a nice day.

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For a forum that should be welcomed by enthusiasts, such as Music Lover, your response is rather blunt. You guys don't own this forum. You are making this a one-sided show.

K.M. Richards said:

This is the business model radio is built on, and your complaining is akin to telling McDonalds their business model is flawed because they don't sell pizza.

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Bad example.

McD's is a hamburger joint and they would never sell pizza. They are there to sell hamburgers (of various types) and some sides, such as fries and McNuggets.

Classic hits radio should do just that, to play the classics (of various types) and some sides such as lost hits and more 60's.

Or would you rather have CH radio play opera or the Argentine tango?

But Mickey D's doesn't make every type of burger, do they? (And let's set aside that they don't just do burgers...they do chicken, or something like it...something resembling a fish sandwich....salads....oh, and they did pizza at one point too....but dropped it because it didn't sell.)

They make a pre-selected set of types, which you have a limited ability to customize. I can count a half dozen burger places near me that all have burgers on their menus that McDonald's doesn't, and can't, because nothing on their menu includes certain ingredients, and therefore, they aren't stocked. McDonald's delivers a set of burgers that generally test well--even the new ones were tested somewhere, and those that flopped never saw the brighter light of day.

There is no rulebook that says a station that adopts a given format must forever be bound to play every single thing that became a hit (however it is you define it). Some songs became hits, and deservedly faded away into obscurity. Somebody's favorite? OK, sure, maybe so. But if it's one out of a hundred people, and the other 99 feel like vomiting when it comes on, what possible business rationale is there for playing it?

I mean...every burger is someone's favorite. Why isn't Mickey D's making them all? Why have they taken some off the menu over the years instead of keeping every darned one someone ordered once upon a time? Because surely the cheddar melt was someone's favorite. Or the salad shakers. Or the big-n-tasty. Or chicken selects. Or the chopped beefsteak sandwich. No, they stick to what works. Kind of like any successful business might do.

oldies76 said:

For a forum that should be welcomed by enthusiasts, such as Music Lover, your response is rather blunt. You guys don't own this forum. You are making this a one-sided show.

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I simply said "Have a nice day."

oldies76 said:

McD's is a hamburger joint and they would never sell pizza.

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They actually were testing McPizza in some markets, but it didn't test well. I'm not kidding. Like radio, they do market testing.

One issue that Music Lover is pointing out is that there is a lack of music diversity on terrestrial radio, as this article points out. http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/entertainment/format-diversity-late-70s-golden-article-1.657726

The other issue that Music Lover is pointing out is that there are potential listeners out there who may not have access to alternatives like she does.

Bob Eubanks said:

There is no rulebook that says a station that adopts a given format must forever be bound to play every single thing that became a hit (however it is you define it). Some songs became hits, and deservedly faded away into obscurity. Somebody's favorite? OK, sure, maybe so. But if it's one out of a hundred people, and the other 99 feel like vomiting when it comes on, what possible business rationale is there for playing it?

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Here's an example, 1755 songs hit top 10 between 1968 and 1986. (I'm just tallying all the songs reaching top 10, regardless of actual chart position within). A station like KRTH plays about 350 songs (some of those outside of the top ten), which leaves about 80-82% of the 1755 unplayed. Now, some of those most likely cannot be played today, "Convention '72" or "Mr. Jaws" are good examples. Take out those types and maybe you still have roughly 1500 to 1600 good songs left.

If testing audiences are only "approving" 300 or so songs, where are the other 1200? Now, some of those are probably not offered for testing anymore because of past negatives, so maybe that leaves about 900

Where are those 900?

See the point? To myself and other music likers out there, sticking with the strict list of safe titles without (key word) non-peak or weekend variety and choices, makes for dull radio. This is where the other 900 songs would come in, using KM Richards clock schedule to properly place these lesser played hits. The problem is that stations like KRTH are not even willing to budge.

And most likely many of the 900 would be played very rarely, but at least they would get limited exposure.

Mr. Eubanks, what's your take on this?

I'll leave this issue alone after your response.

oldies76 said:

If testing audiences are only "approving" 300 or so songs, where are the other 1400?

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It doesn't matter. The ones they ARE playing are getting a great response from the listeners.

Nobody gets extra credit for the number of songs they play. There is no requirement to play any songs at all, much less any requirement to play every hit from a period. As we've said many times, how a song charted in it's time has nothing to do with how listeners feel about it now. What matters is how listeners feel about songs now. They obviously like these songs, because the stations that play them are getting great ratings.

They do what they do because it works. You obviously have no response for that.

By the way, this is the Adult Contemporary forum. These posts here are not about Adult Contemporary and are off topic.

I thought you said you were finished. But, as long as you are reneging on that statement:

oldies76 said:

This is where the other 900 songs would come in, using KM Richards clock schedule to properly place these lesser played hits. The problem is that stations like KRTH are not even willing to budge.

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I made it clear at the time that the clock I created was for that small market station you love so much, and I did say "if I were going to program the lower charting songs". I said nothing about trying to do it in a major market situation, where I would be handed my head on a platter when it didn't work.

This is not Music Lover speaking here this morning. This is Music Lover's hubby making a one time post today. First, I bring the news that Music Lover has officially quit the forum.

Music Lover is bringing up the following facts:

a) There is lack of format diversity on radio today, as this news article tells about as well. http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/entertainment/format-diversity-late-70s-golden-article-1.657726

b)While Music Lover has access to alternatives, there are potential listeners out there that do not have access to alternatives.

Instead of saying "no", put on your thinking caps and offer solutions to the problem.

Have a great day.