Radio Determines Which Songs People Remember

b-turner said:

The thing I don't get is why radio is the bad guy. The advertiser is the one that won't buy and the advertising agencies reflect the whims of the advertiser. The radio station is at the mercy of the advertising dollar. If we need to lay blame for the 55+ person not finding something they want on radio, follow the money. We're all reliant on the money.

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^^^ This is the ugly nut of truth inside all the finger-pointing.

I lament the current mentality of ad agencies and larger advertisers, that anyone 55 and up might as well be issued a bottle of Geritol, an AARP card and shipped off to Branson. "Too set in their ways to change brands" is one refrain I've heard over and over. Okay, fine. So Mr. & Mrs. Elderly 55-Year-Old will buy and drive only Buicks, and their kitchen is outfitted with only Maytag appliances. You'll pry them out of their cold, dead hands.

Here's where local salespeople come into play. Along with the "set-in-their-ways" attitude is another reality: they have more disposable income versus the 20-somethings, most of whom have student debt loads to crush bone. And many of these wrinkled old 55-year-old farts tend to be conservative with their money, which means they want the best deal. Thrift trumps loyalty. So, when it comes time to buy a new Buick Lucerne, and when their Maytag washer kicks the agitator, where are they going to buy their next Buick and Maytag? Probably wherever they get the best price for them. Enter the local merchant! Given, there aren't as many as 25-30+ years ago (ahembigboxahem), but they're still around and many still thrive.

A lot of radio salespeople people today don't like to be challenged by anything outside their little box, so this requires AEs who love the older-skewing formats, who believe in the "product", and who can convince these merchants that the audiences' "set in their ways" philosophy is mostly brand-related, and doesn't necessarily extend to WHERE they can buy said brands. It can work, but it requires "trying harder" .... just as many radio programmers are "trying harder" to attract younger people.

Younger people like my 23-year-old son, who literally has just one (1) radio to his name: the one in his car. And it might as well not have the radio function to begin with, since he listens to everything via his phone (streaming, MP3s or Pandora). I was discussing this with him some time back, and asked him about his other friends .......... yup, none of them listen to much radio, either. I could feel my blood freezing up when he told me this.

It's not easy. Right now, the choice seems to be: A) program a signal to the 50+ generation, who grew up with radio and are the most loyal "consumers" of radio, and the advertising dries up because those businesses are too short-sighted to see the big picture. B) Jump in with all the other stations, fighting for that scrawny piece of 25-year-old carcass, the one whose disposable income (provided there's much of it to begin with!) is going to Miz Sallie Mae for that college degree. The one who looks at radio the same way as he does stores like Sears.

Something is gonna have to give. Right now there's still a 'sweet spot' of 30-somethings and early 40-somethings. Reality check: they'll be "aging out" before too much longer, and today's 25 year old will be tomorrow's 35 year old, still with that massive college loan tab, whose car-listening habits revolve around the USB port and AUX jack in his or her car. And I seriously doubt that you'll woo them with what amounts to an automated playlist with 5+ minute stopsets. Just a hunch.

Just my own .02, of course. Flame away.......

--Russell

rwells2265 said:

A lot of radio salespeople people today don't like to be challenged by anything outside their little box, so this requires AEs who love the older-skewing formats, who believe in the "product"

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Let me ask you this: Can I convince you that you're wrong? Probably not. Put yourself and your opinions in the place of an advertiser who has a budget, and whose job it is to translate that budget into sales. He doesn't care about music, he doesn't care about radio programming, he doesn't care about your aging agenda. He cares about maximizing the value of his budget. And he's armed with FACTS about boomers and how they feel about advertising. He knows the truth about the over-55 demographic, and can quote statistics about them. They're not very flattering. And in your heart of hearts, you know his facts are right. Because a lot of older demos don't respond to advertising, or they require more money spent on them than younger audiences. They are the biggest complainers about the number of commercials, they're the ones who also complain the most about music repetition, and they're the ones who buy the products they buy because they want to, not because of the advertising.

It's easy to blame radio salespeople, and say they're lazy or stuck in a little box. The reality is they represent their listeners, who are equally lazy, cheap, and also stuck in their little musical box. There are lots of radio salespeople out there beating their heads against the walls, trying to get advertisers to support aging radio audiences and formats like Classic Hits, Classic Rock, News Talk, and All News. There are even a few salespeople selling Standards and Classic country, aiming at listeners in their 60s and older. There are enough of them so we know it's not the salespeople who are at fault. It would be a whole lot easier if their boomer audiences would PAY for the formats they want, rather than complain about the advertisers who do it for them. It's always easier to blame someone else for how they spend their own money, while ignoring the fact that if you just paid $20 or so a month, you could get what you want. But no, you want what you want for free, and if you can't get it, it's because of some radio salesperson or some greedy station owner or some uninformed advertiser. As I said, how easy is it for me to convince you that you're wrong?

In radio we have two different animals: the small market where buys are placed directly by the business owner who likely is not working with data about what it costs to reach certain demographics. The sale is made almost purely by the quality of the relationship between the salesperson and the owner. In fact, many may be 50 plus that are making the buying decisions.

Once you get to larger markets, you might start your sales journey by contacting the owner. Chances are you'll get a secretary telling you X agency handles all their advertising. Since that is the case, you go to the agency. They make the decisions. You say, why not stay after the owner and ask the owner to buy your station. Tried that before. You tick off the owner by wasting their time. The owner explains they hired the agency to handle things because they know what they're doing. I have even pitched an idea to see if the owner liked it before going to the agency. The owner didn't even want to concern himself with advertising.

Now at the agency, you have the planner who needs to prove they made the best decision for their company and the client. Tossing out campaigns that are based on the research they have looks good to the agency boss (maybe the planner could get a raise, promotion, etc.) and it looks good to the client because the agency has all this third party research to document why the 'buy' is what it is. It does not include 55+ listeners. So, I can argue until I am blue in the face or any other color but it does no good.

So, how do I change things as a salesman?

Earlier comments suggest going to the advertiser. Yes, there are advertisers out there without an agency. They can afford to spend maybe $200 to $300 a month. Count on several hours of fighting traffic, burning gas and a few hours over about 5 to 8 visits to get that $200 to $300 order. They sure won't commit for more than a month or two because the higher the dollar amount, the scarier it gets for them. That's why you can sell cars talking monthly payment. So, you've wasted about 200 miles of drive time and a total of about a dozen hours to bring in that $200 to $300 order. Now reality sets in. Your station that targets the 55+ does have listeners but they're scattered around the city and the client you just picked up has a single location. After a month, you learn there is maybe a handful of your station's listeners within the primary trade area of that stand alone business. The client doesn't think radio worked for them. But you got your commission check and it paid for most of the gas you put in the car in order to generate that sale. Just speaking from experience here...a bad experience.

In the small market, you can bring advertisers on with relative ease. Demographics reached are less important that the idea or promotion and the relationship where the client sees you as working for their continued success. But an oldies AM station in a town to 10,000 is likely not what folks are talking about here.

Some stations fight the good fight. I was talking to a nostalgia station, a daytimer with partial major market coverage. The owner had 2 advertisers and virtually all his income is from various ministries and ethnic groups that buy Saturday afternoons and Sundays. What little else he gets is from the sporadic infomercial buy. Does he make money? Let's just say it helps his station is housed within the walls of another business he owns and that computers can run a station. By the way, this station likely reaches about 2,000,000 or more and is on the edge of a top 10 market. He used to have a sales department but nobody stayed or had any success.

AARGH! I HATE THESE ADS CONSTANTLY STARTING AS I POST! If they only played once but they fire off every time this page refreshes, over and over.

Here's the truth: If radio stations could bypass advertisers and agencies, and charge listeners directly for programming, operating like a utility, they'd do it in a minute. It's cheaper and easier to get your money from users IF they decide to pay. But the way radio works, you can't restrict reception to paid up users. So you end up with freeloaders who complain all the time. When I ran a non-com station, less then 10% of our audience paid.

And getting anywhere near 10% on a non-comm means you are doing things right. I in 15 is much more common in markets without the ability to have a third party coaching you or a well rounded 'added value' department producing newsletters, building up value in member cards and securing incentives. At least that is the case I've seen. And I might note, it takes a few years of operating before any of this works. I've been told you need to be operating 2 to 3 years before your first on air station fundraiser.

I might also add that from those stations I know, most seem to average about 1/3rd of their income from listeners. The rest is from Underwriting (again sold by demographic) and some various grants. Very few public stations can make it solely on listener donations.

If you look at Minnesota Public Radio, they got almost 20 million from listeners and 24 million from Underwriting. Of the 5+ million they reach, 134,000 donate and I'd guess their 3 primary formats carried by about 50 signals garners about 10% of Minnesota's radio listeners. When you divide that 44 million in to about 50 stations which includes the flagship 3 stations in Minneapolis, that's not so much money. Yet, MPR is an incredible organization, smartly operating and originator of stuff like Prairie Home Companion, etc.

TheBigA said:

He knows the truth about the over-55 demographic, and can quote statistics about them. They're not very flattering. And in your heart of hearts, you know his facts are right. Because a lot of older demos don't respond to advertising, or they require more money spent on them than younger audiences.

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The younger end of the scale is not the wide-eyed Dilbert character "Asok" that's often perceived; they're far more skeptical and cynical than my generation was at that point (I'm 50). Selling them is also a challenge. Plus, they have less disposable money. And last time I checked, money is needed to buy the stuff mentioned in the commercials.

All the research and what-not being what it is, there ain't a whole lot of meat on the bird everyone is chasing.

It's easy to blame radio salespeople, and say they're lazy or stuck in a little box. The reality is they represent their listeners, who are equally lazy, cheap, and also stuck in their little musical box. (SNIP) It would be a whole lot easier if their boomer audiences would PAY for the formats they want, rather than complain about the advertisers who do it for them. It's always easier to blame someone else for how they spend their own money, while ignoring the fact that if you just paid $20 or so a month, you could get what you want. But no, you want what you want for free, and if you can't get it, it's because of some radio salesperson or some greedy station owner or some uninformed advertiser. As I said, how easy is it for me to convince you that you're wrong?

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If being wrong means I don't have contempt for my audience, then I'm wrong. Without the "freeloading" listeners, who's gonna listen to all those commercials the agencies, with all their research, have bought? I know you're talking about the elderly fogie--I mean boomer audience in your reply, but it's easily extended to the younger demos. 28-year-old kid listens to your station, but he has no money to buy what your sponsors are selling. Is he a freeloader, too?

I won't get into a peeing match. I've worked in the business for a long time (non-comm end; I got out of commercial radio long before it became so mean ;-)) ........ so I'm not approaching this from a listener, pouting because my favorite oldies station disappeared. I accept the reality of things today, if somewhat saddened. I love radio, in spite of itself, but to all the people you're "working hard" to chase, with all their entertainment options, you may as well be Sears.

--Russell

You bring up some good points but we are face with changing what we have no power to change. Now in the small market, you can do formats that reach older demographics without too much difficulty

TheBigA said:

Here's the truth: If radio stations could bypass advertisers and agencies, and charge listeners directly for programming, operating like a utility, they'd do it in a minute. It's cheaper and easier to get your money from users IF they decide to pay. But the way radio works, you can't restrict reception to paid up users. So you end up with freeloaders who complain all the time. When I ran a non-com station, less then 10% of our audience paid.

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It's easy to read into this a wish that radio could be like TV stations, where most of the audience has cable to watch them. Then we too would have that jackpot revenue stream from retrans fees. And why do they get all the fun of running those mudslinging commercials, and we don't??!!
"Xfinity Radio is going to TAKE AWAY your Lite Rock Favorites on 103.2 The Creekbed. Call Xfinity and tell the cable pig to go on a diet!!!"
"103.2 The Creekbed is being unreasonable in what they're charging. We at Xfinity Radio are looking out for you, and they aren't. Call 103.2 The Creekbed and demand they cooperate with us!!!"

rwells2265 said:

It's easy to read into this a wish that radio could be like TV stations, where most of the audience has cable to watch them. Then we too would have that jackpot revenue stream from retrans fees.

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There would be no retrains fees for radio because the content is all internal. A cable company is a pass-through. Radio is not. It is more end to end.

TheBigA said:

And as I said in the other thread: What's your point? It's not radio's job to remind people about old music. People need to take responsibility for their own likes and dislikes.

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It's not YOUR job to remind us, but it is YOUR job to play the music that we like and enjoy hearing (music fans and the masses alike). I could care less what it is you decide to program during the week, but as a listener, we expect a diversion from the same ole, during lower listening times, such as the weekends. That station out west (and you know which one I'm referring to) is simply terrible (to put it lightly). Never have seen anything like this, ever (and I've been following many classic hits stations for well over 20 years). Terrible!

TheBigA said:

We DO get it. And as I said we'd love to do it, but it would be subscription only.

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Subscription only?? I don't see countless stations charging their listeners to hear 50's and 60's hits. Heck, our local KWRP 690 / 100.3 plays them. You need to come up with ways to satisfy listeners that expect to hear their favorites. I realize demos shift over time, but to simply shut out the 55+ is wrong, regardless of advertising expectations. Why should they have to pay 15 bucks a month for satellite radio when all you have to do is play the music for free (like it has ALWAYS been)? Many older people live on limited budgets and to "force" them into other alternatives such as, subscribing to hear their favorites, instead of radio playing their hits, is nonsense.

Not catering to 55+ and their goldmine of hits, is like flushing away money down the toilet and then some.

ContinuousWave said:

55+ is now a age group that has to be taken seriously in ratings...lots of money in that demo...and they still listen to music and radio.

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Yes they do. It really boggles me as to why these nice folks and their cache of music and musical knowledge is simply ignored and not implemented properly on radio. Ok, your not going to hear "Ivory Tower" by Gale Storm, but come on, there are loads of songs that can be played that would fit in with the current demos that radio is targeting. There can be an overlap in music presentation to several age ranges, if done correctly. There's ALWAYS a way. I completely agree with you, Wave.

Here's a perfect example of a station here in Colorado that caters to 55+, PLUS, you'll hear some 70's and 80's which is geared to the newer demos.

http://oldiesinpueblo.com/

Let me know what you think, if you can. I've already gotten feedback from another poster a while back and it was mainly positive.

oldies76 said:

It's not YOUR job to remind us, but it is YOUR job to play the music that we like and enjoy hearing (music fans and the masses alike).

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No it's not. Our job is to play the music our target demo likes. You no longer fit that demo.

oldies76 said:

Not catering to 55+ and their goldmine of hits, is like flushing away money down the toilet and then some.

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If no advertisers want to pay for that audience, then there's no money to flush away.

TheBigA said:

No it's not. Our job is to play the music our target demo likes. You no longer fit that demo.

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Last time I checked, 47 year olds fit perfectly in the 35-54 range classic hits stations are targeting......today. So myself and others expect you to play our favorites that we remember.

Nice try.

TheBigA said:

If no advertisers want to pay for that audience, then there's no money to flush away.

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Well then, you need to find those advertisers that appeal to 55+ (insurance, cruise ships, vacations, retirement, restaurants, casinos....etc...etc..) Get them on board, once you do, it's a whole new enchilada! There's ALWAYS a way, remember that.

oldies76 said:

Last time I checked, 47 year olds fit perfectly in the 35-54 range classic hits stations are targeting......today. So myself and others expect you to play our favorites that we remember.

Nice try.

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If you're going to take this thread down that road, be advised I have a blank e-mail pre-addressed to the Board GM all ready to go.

oldies76 said:

Well then, you need to find those advertisers that appeal to 55+ (insurance, cruise ships, vacations, retirement, restaurants, casinos....etc...etc..) Get them on board, once you do, it's a whole new enchilada! There's ALWAYS a way, remember that.

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It isn't necessarily the advertisers' target which is the determining factor. You must have missed David's post in this thread (post #43), in which he explains that a target demographic requiring more advertising impressions to create a purchase on the part of the listener is considered a poor return on investment.

Advertisers and their agencies want cost-effectiveness.