Classical Radio

I figure this is the best place to place this topic since commercial classical radio has become extremely rare.

Correct my ignorance where needed, please.

I see classical music lovers in two classes of listeners. The serious classical listener seems to want to hear full length pieces both familiar and little known to them as well as information on the music, composer, etc. The casual classical listener seems not to care but wants to hear familiar pieces whether that be simply a movement instead of the actual full symphony. They could care less about the composer, the piece, etc. They are there for familiar music and a whole lot of it.

Quite a few years ago, a format launched to breathe new life into classical music called Classic FM. The idea was to play familiar pieces and those works they identified as 'sound alike' or familiar feeling. I refer to that as similar to the familiar pieces. The Classic FM jocks were not cheesy in their presentation as some classical stations became in trying their own hybrid of this. Classic FM, in the USA at least, seems to have not worked.

My question is, do you feel it possible for a classical station to 'work' based on playing the same old familiar works much of the population might recognize. Think those classical music box sets designed for the casual classical listener. I think that playlist might be too slim so, like Classic FM, I think melodic pieces, especially of the Romantic composers big and small and pianists might be a part of the mix. It seems the orchestra or piano are popular and styles like baroque seems to be more of an acquired taste in some respects, much like the harpsichord or lute.

If you have found XLNC FM, a Mexican station reaching Southern California, once billed itself as the Top 400 from the last 400 years. Literally they played 400 familiar pieces/movements. Folks seemed to like it. Even today, their playlist is keyed to the familiar. They even include non-classical works done by classical ensembles. That reminds me of a conversation with a classical public supported station who said he included things like the Overture from South Pacific and such. This fellow had about a 10 day rotation. He did okay as the only classical station around.

So, what do you think? Can familiar classics only establish a larger chunk of the masses than the classical station after the serious classical music listener? And if so, what are the chances of gaining the needed financial support? We know the serious classical listener is well trained about supporting their classical station although they might have a beef or two about the station.

WCRB Boston was a commercial classical station for years at 102.5 before being sold. In its last couple of years, it was running a "Classical's greatest hits" format with an ultra-tight playlist of about 250 pieces. In a compiex, three-sided deal, the WCRB call then wound up on 99.5 as a noncommercial station owned by WGBH. The playlist was expanded and still is fairly large. Ratings were much better in the "greatest hits" days, sometimes hitting the low 3s. Now WCRB bumps along at 1.6 or so most months. Maybe it's "bad pieces" driving away listeners, as David Eduardo might say. But the main classical demo has been dying off as well. PPM's don't function well six feet underground.

Wow, that's a tight playlist and really eye opening results. I wonder if they stayed with the full length work or if they centered on just the recognizable movements.

What got me on to this was noticing that where classical music was used as an ambiance to any activity, it was the same selections that received play. It was as if they bought that 10 CD box of All Time Classical Favorites for $29.99 and were playing the CDs on the random setting.

I'm wondering if such a format was presented in a Jack or Beautiful Music style if it might work. I suspect the person favoring Classical would know all the works and obviously the preferred orchestras/conductors would be chosen which would likely be recognized. I suspect the casual listener just wouldn't care and more likely to add the budget priced classical CD over the regular priced. Thus, back announcing might be pointless.

I also notice news is much less a factor in the format. Some stations don't even bother with traffic and weather. All seem to give great importance to happenings in the local arts community and perceived lifestyle information (ie: very short financial news updates, maybe a wine, movie or arts feature). I know many public stations do NPR news but I winder if that is because the format providers have those fixed breaks that allow this. From what I have seen of both commercial and public stations that do not run NPR, they rarely do more than local arts community PSAs. As I recall Class FM bragged about providing a 30 second news headlines hourly in morning drive.

One way to gauge is to look at what your local orchestra performs. I have a friend that runs the local symphony. I was talking to him about how he gets people to spend hundreds of dollars to see a bunch of musicians play 300 year old songs. His answer reminded me of programming a radio station. He told me that the shows that sell out the quickest are the war horses. Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach. The modern stuff is a turn off. He tries to book guest soloists to spice things up. But he sticks with the known works, and avoids obscure stuff.

I notice classical radio stations tend to stay away from the pop classical stuff like Bocelli and Josh Groban. They're viewed as popular singers rather than traditional classical singers. Personally, I think playing such singers might do a lot to popularize classical radio stations. But I can understand why it's controversial among musical purists.

Classical's Greatest Hits was mostly excerpts and brief stand-alone pieces like Pachelbel's omnipresent Canon in D. Now WGBH sounds more like SiriusXM's Symphony Hall, a mix of long-form and short-form classical music, but without the lesser-known composers (or lesser-heard works of the big names) that the satellite channel includes. No commercials allows them to be more flexible.

Here's WCRB's playlist for the past hour: one full symphony and a bunch of shorter works, including "West Side Story" pieces:

7:00 PM
Cantata 140: Sleepers Awake (trans. for guitar)
Johann Sebastian Bach

7:06 PM
String Sonata No. 3 in C
Gioachino Rossini

7:24 PM
West Side Story: Symphonic Dances
Leonard Bernstein

7:47 PM
Flute Quartet in D, K. 285
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

8:02 PM
Symphony No. 8 in G major, Op. 88
Antonin Dvorak

For me a stuffy classical host talking about how W.A. Mozart had more commissions than he could satisfy in the summer of 1782 is a huge turn-off.
I've often wondered about the viability of a "greatest hits" format for Classical, including "popular" items such as movie soundtracks. There's two challenges with implementing such a thing:

1) The people who tend to be the greatest supporters of public radio stations are also the ones who have the broadest taste and actually want to hear works by Vivaldi and C.P.E. Bach and are somewhat likely to turn up their noses at Bernstein.

2) The number of pieces you can program that be broadly recognized is really pretty limited. This is why my local orchestra will typically perform one or two of Beethoven's nine symphonies each season -- despite the fact that some of them are fairly obscure (say, the #3).

A third problem exists on most public stations: if you limit the playlist too much it becomes difficult to back-time into the hourly news.

Thank you for the great information.

I also wonder if the 'discovery' aspect of classical music would not give it new life as well. It seems the casual classical listener thinks there has been few, if any classical compositions past 1900. I agree much is not in the same vein of, for lack of a better word, the Masters, but there have been gems through the years that demonstrate the talent and mass appeal of the known or favored classical works. I have discovered a number of composers from centuries ago through the 20th century that I liked and I admit they were in the vein of the well known often played composers. I was driving through Austin, Texas one evening with the local classical station (KMFA) playing in the car and heard Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull) with one of his classical compositions, naturally featuring him on flute. I was impressed.

The point about backtiming to news is valid but I find many classical stations, unless hooked up to Classical 24, for example, either go very light on news if they bother at all.

On a classical side note: one station that was sold several years ago, was running a classical format via a computer in a closet. It was totally unannounced. Not a bit of on the air Underwriting. There was no news, weather, etc., just music with a top of hour ID and a promo every two hours. To know what played, you could contact the station or become a member to get their monthly program guide with plenty of advertising to support the station. Today that could be posted online, but back then we were mostly in the dial up era. It was a small market classical station, maybe 125,000 in the city, but it actually did pretty well. They played sacred music 6 to Noon Sundays, Metropolitan Opera on Saturdays and stuck with a long work at the top of the hour with shorter pieces ranging from movie themes to Sousa to Waltzes and such to round out the hour. Granted they were not a cash cow, but a faint moo could be heard.

b-turner said:

I also wonder if the 'discovery' aspect of classical music would not give it new life as well. It seems the casual classical listener thinks there has been few, if any classical compositions past 1900.

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That's an issue to discuss with the audience. Because sonically, 20th century classical music is very different from 19th. I imagine that the development and popularity of jazz started to influence composers, so the music became less pure. You have arguments during the first half of the 20th century to explain the difference between Gershwin and Ellington. Gershwin is acceptable, Ellington is not. Yet compositionally, they're similar.

In any case, the audience for the most part isn't looking to hear new composition, but new interpretations of existing ones. There certainly are current classical music stars, just as there are pop stars. But these stars, like Joshua Bell, are best known for interpreting 18th century compositions.

TheBigA said:

That's an issue to discuss with the audience. Because sonically, 20th century classical music is very different from 19th. I imagine that the development and popularity of jazz started to influence composers, so the music became less pure. You have arguments during the first half of the 20th century to explain the difference between Gershwin and Ellington. Gershwin is acceptable, Ellington is not. Yet compositionally, they're similar.

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I agree. Just picking two living American composers John Adams and William Bolcom for instance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jCdOjOaJsU and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGOFnVqNPR8

I personally strongly dislike postmodern music (say, post-WWII). I'm sure a professional could find some post-WWII music a little more compatible with the baroque, classical and romantic periods, but what I know of just doesn't fit.

Thanks for the advice. I want to play with the idea a bit and maybe toss out a few CDs to select folks to see what they think as long as I believe they will be honest and say more than "it's pretty good" when they don't care for it.

I have to agree that most material since 1900 is the sort of material where I scratch my head and say 'what were they thinking'. I'm not talking the composer but the record company that shelled out to release the CD. A few composers were steeped in the Romantic Era and did some reasonable material. Even so, I must admit much of it is pretty shallow as far as the Masters go. Simply put, it seems like they tried to copy the style but either failed in the talent department or failed to understand the concept fully.

Even so, I think the best bet for classical might be a tight playlist of the known segments of works. It just seems this would have the greater appeal and opportunity for success. I think presentation is key. Jocks saying this is really a cool piece of music and such seems pretty cheesy to me and the ultra formal presentation seems out the window as well. Radio's current trend of the conversational sounding jock in short bursts might work, implying the person on the air is just an ordinary person just like the listener.

One thing I have always thought was amusing is how the classical music listener is perceived to be wealthy. I suppose that plays out to some extent but that perception sure isn't a bad draw for business owners making advertising decisions. Just mention the station format and let the stereotype work its magic. When we had a commercial classical station here, it was full of commercials for businesses seeming to be trying to attract the richest folks in the city to their doors via carefully worded spots. In fact, as a side note, I liked that they ended their commercial breaks with a liner straight in to music. The station didn't go under but instead sold for a huge price. It was so much money that after your jar hit the floor, you dusted yourself off and couldn't say yes and show me the money fast enough.

I believe that most listening is done in the car today. Not much at home. So if you are classical music listener and unless you live in LA the typical time spent in the car in one sitting is probably about half an hour. Most Symphonies and Concertos (concerti?) are longer than that. So if they start a full length work just as you are getting in the car, it is unlikely you will be around when it ends. And if you tune in during the middle, it is even worse. half of each work. So that seems to be why classical seems to be tending toward shorter works and parts of works.

And with the limitations on the distance for FM, if I am driving any long distance I still can't get through more than one piece before the station disappears into white noise.

The answer for me (even with the dismal sound quality) is Sirius/XM and a stack full of flash drives. At least when I stop the car with a flash drive in, I can pick up the work where I left off.

Pandora, etc. is not the answer as cell phone service is just one stage above two cans and a string. However, the services work nicely when I am on my home computer. I was listening to one streamed program and I don't know who was doing the programming, but I started writing down composers and works. The advantage is that if I hear something I really can't stand, I can just hit 'skip.'

Unregistered said:

I believe that most listening is done in the car today. Not much at home.

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One exception is classical. Classical music listeners have higher TSL than other formats. We find they also are more likely to listen in the office or at work.

Goat Rodeo Cowboy said:

The coverage area of an FM channel available for lower rated programming (Classical Music) in Los Angeles may be significantly different than the coverage area of an available channel in Columbus, OH or Galesburg, IL.

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It depends. In LA, the classical station is KUSC, owned by the University of Southern California. They have a great signal. But it's non-commercial. About ten years ago, there was a commercial classical station in Washington DC: WGMS. It was one of the highest rated radio stations in the city. It also made a ton of money. But what started to happen was the audience started to get old. Younger audiences weren't drawn to traditional classical music. Not that they didn't like the music, because they obviously were loving Josh Groban. But they didn't like the traditional presentation on WGMS. So ultimately that format was transferred to WETA, the public station in town, and WGMS became WTOP-FM, the top-rated commercial all-news station.

So programming classical can be complicated in that the music appeals to a wide range of audience, but you have to decide in how you're going to present it on the radio. It's possible that adding Groban and other popular singers to the playlist could have lengthened the life of commercial classical radio. But how many of the more traditional listeners would have stayed with it? It's a difficult balancing act.

b-turner said:

I'm wondering if such a format was presented in a Jack or Beautiful Music style if it might work.

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PTBoardOp94 said:

For me a stuffy classical host talking about how W.A. Mozart had more commissions than he could satisfy in the summer of 1782 is a huge turn-off.

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I've often wondered about the viability of a "greatest hits" format for Classical, including "popular" items such as movie soundtracks. There's two challenges with implementing such a thing:I don't know how popular it was at the end, but WMUU in Greenville SC, owned by Bob Jones University, was showing up in the ratings and seemed to be able to sell commercial time.

They didn't play classical music as classical music but as "beautiful music". Not usually the entire symphony but maybe a movement, and usually something familiar. Movie themes were among the most played songs. Some songs had vocals and these were usually from Broadway shows or something.

Being a Christian station they had sacred music at night, and there was time set aside for sermons, and classical music concerts were broadcast at times, which probably meant all of a work and not just one movement.

That is what I am discovering. Classical Listeners spend lots of time with their station maybe because classical is typically not heard on other signals in the area. If a really popular station can get a listener for maybe 4 hours a week, it might be possible for a classical listener to best that by a couple of hours, maybe more. I admit I haven't done a bunch of research on that but I know a couple of PDs at a non-NPR fulltime classical and a commercial classical station that might be willing to share and teach me something. I need to take a look at some ratings to see how those TSLs shape up, especially on those stations I've mentioned as well as weekly cume.

I am also finding the serious Classical listener wants uninterrupted full length works and a much more formal approach. The familiar pieces seem to target the more casual classical listener because they are familiar. The casual listener tends to like other music (as does the serious listener) and classical may be more of a 'mood' choice for these folks. I do think a station just playing familiar selections and not the entire work could likely win for in office listening and in car listening as so wisely pointed out in an earlier post.

I have noticed Beethoven and Classical 24 both play a good number of selections in an hour, It seems if they choose to play a full length symphony it is a short one, usually 20 minutes or less. This would give credence to the in car listening comment. I also notice most classical stations play short works in AM drive, perhaps for this very reason.

I was rather surprised at how the trend is for 24/7 Classical stations, both commercial and non-commercial, do very little if any news, sometimes don't bother with traffic reports and frequently limit weathercasts to about a 12 to 18 hour forecast with current temperature. One PD told me their research showed they already knew traffic conditions before starting their commute and stayed on top of traffic with sources other than their station. In fact, this is in a city, while not that big, has horrible commute times. From the outer suburbs expect 90 minutes. I was surprised by that. In this PD's view, the station was somewhat of an escape from the outside world, kind of that secret place nobody knows about where the daily challenges of life do not enter.

From what little I have discovered at this point, it seems there is not much overlap between the casual and serious classical listener. If anything, the casual classical listener tends to come from other music formats and although the serious classical listener might also tune in other formats, the classical format is the default for them. I think the casual classical listener feels like an outsider tuned to a classical station that markets to the serious classical listener. So, I think along with music selection, presentation is crucial. The listener needs to relate to the on air talent. I'm not talking cheesy.

On presentation, I got to listen to KVIL in Dallas when Ron Chapman was running things. Ron wisely got in the minds of his target audience. It was the late 1960s into the 1970s when migration for up and coming young families was to the suburbs and the sky's the limit opportunities for success. One of the things I noticed was the station ran lots of PSAs for the arts community and offered many things to listeners that would typically only be available for the upper income earner. Simply put, they made the listener feel like family and made you a part of the station (the illusion of such) and listening was sort of like listening to radio beyond your financial means. I heard Chapman talking about something and a segment of a caller was featured after the song, introduced by Ron as "You know Betty over at All Star Travel in Irving. She makes a really good point"...segment of call. While that was long ago and far away (I was in high school when I heard this), the unique concept of the illusion of living beyond your financial means via radio, or at least what the typical young family aspired to achieve, was genius in my mind.