Not true worship

Glad to hear of Sandy's repentance and subsequent healing and restoration. I will say that there seemed to be a blind eye cast in her direction, while Amy Grant was dragged through the mud. A real double standard - in Sandy's favor.

Another double standard was when songs by Sandy that either never charted at all, or charted a full 18 months before the year of the award were coronated with no question when equally good CCM songs by other artists - that met the criteria of charting and being in the correct year were available.

All of this coincided with the praise and worship movement - which made CCM "safe" for radio stations, but devastated its effectiveness as a tool to reach lost young people. "Safe for the family", yes, as long as the family contained no members in the age range of 12 to 34, who were literally left with no radio ministry whatsoever and deserted Christian radio en-masse for secular.

I have nothing against Sandy. I'm glad her music is there for people that like that sort of thing. She didn't fit the Christian rock format. so we never played her. I also have nothing against praise and worship, I'm glad it is there for people that like it. But I didn't program praise and worship - and the ruthless and forceful way it was promoted to us as the new direcction in CCM left us with no support from the Nashville labels. We were forced to drive 50 miles down to a Christian bookstore carrying Christian rock - and spending endless hours previewing music, spending our own money on CD's to keep the format consistent. OK, donations rolled in from soccer moms to CCM stations, grandma Pharisee never had to complain about the beat. NOT OUR FORMAT. Not at all! If that made us iconclasts and rebels against a perceived "moved of God" by some individuals, so be it. Soccer moms and grandma Pharisee were never our target audience.

So where does that leave Christian music today? The overwhelming majority of stations are monetarily successful praise and worship CCM style. With not a single young person listening. Guess who the future of the church is? Fortunately there are some forward looking people at KSBJ who put NGEN on the air, and at WPOZ who put Hot 95.9 and "The Rock" on the air. I don't think a single person would argue that praise and worship should go away. Those soccer moms need their music. But I also don't think anybody would argue that millenials have alternative delivery methods that weren't available in the past, and can and will seek out exactly the music they want. I pray a lot of them choose Christian music. But they need to be aware it exists in the first place - something PW Christian stations do a poor job of doing. But one thing that PW advocates should NOT do - and that is assume that their preferred format is a "one size fits", all encompassing format. PW is it - Christian radio ministry - done in its entirely, everybody flock to our station. NOPE, there are southern gospel fans out there, hymn fans out there, Christian country fans out there, and yes, Christian rock fans out there. Can a young person like, be ministered to by praise and worship? Of course! I know a couple. They are very much the exception to the rule, praise and worship is pretty slow and not much fun - and kids are going to want something fun to listen to. Something that can compete effectively with the top-40 secular and secular hip-hop they are used to. Quality wise, those Christian styles are really good and getting better, and many kids I think could become fans of the Christian music if it were promoted in church youth groups. But there has to be a station to promote!

I don't recall liking Sandy Patti but I might have to rethink her music now. As for Amy Grant, I heard a recording of her "El Shaddai" and was fine with it, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go.

This summer in the mountains I couldn't find anything else so i ended up on a station that was playing The Cathedrals. Good stuff.

If I want to listen to Christian music on the radio, I still have BBN.

WMUU is online-only so that's a problem.

But I'll try to be open-minded about what young people need. Just keep it away from me.

As for my church, there hasn't been much of the new music lately and I'm hoping it stays that way. The fourth Sundays may be coming back and I just have to not be around. I can walk around outside if one song (or maybe two, in the case if Homecoming, which is why I was gratdful I decided not to stay around) doesn't sound right. At least it wasn't all that loud in the parking lot but I could hear a beat.

But we've interviewed three organists. Why we haven't hired one of them yet I don't know. Our former organist left us in December and I'm sure the substitute is looking forward to taking time off. I did actually reveal my feelings to our new pastor without being anonymous and she was understanding about it.

I pray you find ministry that suits your needs. In the many months we have been corresponding, I think you have come to respect the fact that genuine worship is not measured by your personal tastes. Nor by mine. It is a state of fellowship with God that is intensely personal and tailored to someone's personal taste. It is a response to God and his goodness as expressed by a believer, and the experience is enhanced by fellowship with other believers who have like minds and tastes. They don't have to be physically present with you - which is why shut ins, disabled, and elderly - as well as those travelling - can worship through radio and television. With the advent of the internet, it is easy to find a compatible worship service anywhere you have internet access.

If you are lucky, you find a church locally you can be comfortable in. If not, there is always the internet, and you can seek out like minded people to view a service in your home. Sometimes these end up being satellite churches. It is happening here in my city. First it was 5 or 6 people going from the Woodlands to downtown Dallas every Sunday for Fellowship church. After a few months, there were 30 or 40 making the trip on a rented bus every Sunday. Then they found a storefront and bought a large screen projector - the Fellowship service is in HD over the Internet. Soon, probably, they will start having local music and a campus pastor - if they get the blessing from the parent church in Grapevine, TX. Even starting a church has been helped by the Internet! Maybe that is your answer, just as my answer to the dismal state of Christian radio was to "do it myself".

I appreciate the intention of what you wrote - weneverknew. I think there is some merit in letting go of the past, but if we turn a blind eye towards it, we can't learn from it.

Where you and I probably differ is in the view that the move to praise and worship music was a move of God. I see it a little differently - I see it as a business decision on the part of Nashville labels to maximize their profits while at the same time silencing critics. Generally, when God moves, you see a response in the number of people reached. Christian radio is a very strange thing. You have competing and sometimes mutually exclusive objectives. There is the aspect of ministry, wanting to further God's kingdom by leading people to Christ. There is the aspect of business - keeping the ministry financially solvent. There is the aspect of which group of people to which you are choosing to minister, and their ability to support the station. This, I think, is where a lot of stations choose to take the easy way out. Christian soccer moms are already saved, the have young children, and there is this perception that one of their responsibilities is to make sure their children consume good, healthy media. Certainly a noble goal. But they are the filter as to what is good, healthy media. Because they are listening at the same time as their children, they will have a natural bias to provide CCM that THEY like, not that their children necessarily like. So - what is going to happen to all that slow, worshipful, not-very-fun CCM the moment that their children are exposed to secular top-40, hip-hop, or some other style of music that may not be Christ centered, but is a heck of a lot more fun to listen to? The moment teenage independent attitudes start to develop, arguments over the station played in the car start. The radio in their room is tuned to non-Christian stations, and maybe a real argument ensues. Some parents will call it teenage rebellion, and unable to cope with the idea that their children have strayed from the straight and narrow, the inevitable result is that the secular music becomes "the forbidden fruit" and the parent is absolutely going to lose the fight, furthering the rift that is already developing.

I have seen this over and over again. Dozens if not hundreds of times. That is why I am passionate about Christian radio for young people. It is even in my past - only it was my parents liking classical music and I discovered The Beatles. Radio is probably the first thing a lot of kids have access to - at 9, 10, 11 - it can be their first access to a world outside their parents influence. Probably at the suggestion of school mates who are also beginning to make the first life choices of their own. While a lot of parents realize the dangers of television and do a good job of blocking offensive content - there are no blocks for radio, and radios are ubiquitous.

A smart parent will make sure that there is Christian radio and music available that is fun to listen to, competes effectively with secular music, and encourages the child to explore those genre's of Christian music - even if they don't personally like it. I've seen that approach, too, and although it doesn't usually stop all the interest in secular, it provides a healthy balance in the life of the kid who hears filth and garbage in secular music, and believe me they DO listen to their parent's values, then they hear uplifting, Christ centered lyrics done in the same style. Unless someone is mentally challenged, they generally will prefer something that is pleasant over something unpleasant every single time. And I am NOT talking about a plodding 4:4 style praise and worship melody over a rock and roll style melody. I am talking about lyrical content.

So - go with the flow and accept praise and worship as "God's movement"? No - not me. When I look at where God was REALLY moving in the early 90's, I see Carpenter's Home church packed with 10,000 kids fanatically excited about the Newsboys. I see 5000 kids on Daytona Beach at a Carman concert, then again at a Newsboys concert - as opposed to 300 attending a secular concert up the beach. Yes - Christian music was that good! I see the phones light up the switchboard at the station when we or a show like ours was on the air - then the switchboard goes silent the moment we go off the air and bring up the praise and worship feed. I see ratings so good that we out rated the local top-40 while we were on the air, only to surrender those ratings the moment we went off the air.

My simple equation: higher ratings = more donations = more people giving their life to Christ. The soccer mom CCM stations do a good job of bringing in ratings and donations, I hope that translates into adult salvations. I doubt it translates into teenage salvations. It isn't their target audience - and the kids darn well know it. Conventional wisdom is that Christian kids don't financially support Christian rock stations. But the flaw in the logic is that these are the same kids that go out to the mall and drop $100 or more every weekend. Secular stations know this and advertise heavily to them. Christian rock stations just don't know how to market to kids effectively. These kids can be passionately devoted to Christian rock stations. I know because we brought out massive crowds of kids to protest in front of abortion clinics. If we had asked them for money, they would have supported us financially. We didn't. We didn't have to - it was a gift of love from us to the kids. Thousands of grateful call slips, featuring re-dedications, salvations, wanting advice on good churches in the area, even prevented suicides. How many soccer mom family friendly CCM stations have that sort of record with teenagers? Not many, I would wager.

So - where was God moving with young people? Praise and worship - or Christian rock? The world follows the money. Christians follow salvations and changed lives. I want to be where God is moving, not where record labels are moving. And I intend to continue saying this - I may be one voice but there are many who feel this way and have a vision from the Lord to reach lost young people instead of playing it safe.

Can I change things as one man? I did in Daytona Beach. While the devil had shoals of used condoms washing up on the beach, we were reaping a harvest of saved kids. The Bible is full of examples of one man standing up in the face of overwhelming odds and being victorious - because God was with him and God won the victory. I was honored to be that man when God called me. I will be that man again if he calls me back into radio. And with the Holy Spirit inside me, there is no way I can lose if God is moving through me. That, my friend, is how one man makes a difference in radio. May God call thousands of like minded men to fight the filth on secular radio! That is my prayer.

WeNeverKnew said:

I never said that P&W was a move of God.

In fact, I specifically asked, "why did God allow the changes in Christian music and Christian radio that you and I bemoan?"

There is a difference.

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I don't see why you can't have both the conservative styles and what the kids like.

Because I won't even respond to the so-called "praise and worship" music. What I heard Vince Gill do yesterday, that's more my style.

And our new church organist started yesterday. It sounds like things will be fine, but I'll know soon enough.

vchimpanzee said:

I don't see why you can't have both the conservative styles and what the kids like.

Because I won't even respond to the so-called "praise and worship" music. What I heard Vince Gill do yesterday, that's more my style.

And our new church organist started yesterday. It sounds like things will be fine, but I'll know soon enough.

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There will always be a few kids that have tastes counter to popular culture. I know a few kids that listen to classical music preferentially. More power to them - its tough to fight peer pressure and pupular culture in high school. The overwhelming majority of kids despise conservative style Christian music. They might tolerate it because it is at their church where their parents go and some of their friends are. But the moment they are on their own - their own place, a college in another city, married, etc., they will follow their own musical tastes and worship styles. A small minority of them might pick something they are familiar with. I am not concerned that they won't find a place - the conservative worship experience is all over the place.

It is possible to emulate the popular styles without compromising with the world - and that is what I am promoting. Musical structure and style is neutral - I often laugh at the dial the "truth" people for saying the anapestic beat (short short long) is evil and will be bad for health because it runs against heartbeat. I'd love to forward THAT one to Adam and Jamie (The Mythbusters). The anapestic beat was invented by classical musicians long ago. Long before there was any popular music one would associate with rock music.

Be careful, Vchimpanzee! Vince Gill is married to Amy Grant - a lot of self righteous pharisees are all over Amy and Vince like a bad rash for having been previously married to other people. Oh the shame, shudder.

A sower went out to sow....

rbrucecarter5 said:

There will always be a few kids that have tastes counter to popular culture. I know a few kids that listen to classical music preferentially. More power to them - its tough to fight peer pressure and pupular culture in high school. The overwhelming majority of kids despise conservative style Christian music. They might tolerate it because it is at their church where their parents go and some of their friends are. But the moment they are on their own - their own place, a college in another city, married, etc., they will follow their own musical tastes and worship styles. A small minority of them might pick something they are familiar with. I am not concerned that they won't find a place - the conservative worship experience is all over the place.

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When did this become just about the kids?

I'm just saying you need stations for people my age or older with my taste. In the area where I live, that's not a problem. But I may haveinterpreted something you said as meaning you have to do one station, and unfortunately (in your opinion) that one station will not appeal to the kids.

As for the Amy Grant problem, I admit that used to bother me.

vchimpanzee said:

When did this become just about the kids?

I'm just saying you need stations for people my age or older with my taste. In the area where I live, that's not a problem. But I may haveinterpreted something you said as meaning you have to do one station, and unfortunately (in your opinion) that one station will not appeal to the kids.

As for the Amy Grant problem, I admit that used to bother me.

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I don't think you have to worry. In the overwhelming majority of markets, the first Christian station on the air is a traditional station. A few markets may only have one CCM station, but the format has wimped out to the point it would play music not objectionable to you. It is the kids and young professionals that have no Christian radio outlet in the majority of markets. Completely unreached by radio.

You might have mis-interpreted me. If I were going to go into a market with no Christian radio at all, I would unapologetically put Christian rock on the air. Because my ministry is - and always has been - to teens and young professionals. I don't know praise and worship, or AC CCM formats. I don't know Southern gospel, or hymns either. I couldn't effectively program those formats. In fact, somebody once donated hundreds of gospel albums to me. I found somebody who wanted them, and donated the whole lot - keeping the few that fit my format. My only regret is that I couldn't find a Christian radio station to take them, so all their listeners who enjoyed that format could enjoy them.

I have some insights about the Amy Grant situation that I will be glad to share off the board if you want to private message me. They are not for public consumption - except to say we continued to play Amy Grant, even though she was at the low end of the format temp wise. Even did a special about her music and how it evolved over time. The station owner - an ardent praise and worship adherent - even enjoyed it and wanted to send a copy of the show to Amy.

rbrucecarter5 said:

A few markets may only have one CCM station, but the format has wimped out to the point it would play music not objectionable to you.

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If it's called CCM, trust me. It would be.

A day in the life of Me.

Listening to the Gospel blocks and stations here is very boring, bland and dull indeed.

All I get is these thoughts and ideas:

1. God woke me up this morning and started me on my way. (Glad He did it but too many songs are promoting this now and I'm bored with it!)
2. God wants everyone to have the wealth of the wicked, always be well and wise. (Not Biblical at all.)
3. God owes us something, because of various issues and circumstances. (Not Biblical at all.)
4. Southern Gospel is God's official ordained music for the Church. (I Head that recently and it offended me.)
5. Too much Praising God and not enough of teaching people how to fulfill the Great Commission. (So sad indeed.)

Now when one is daily being feed those examples, it does lead to boredom. When one gets bored, they tend to protest and find something else to listen to on purpose. The Christianity we have here isn't Biblical at all. The truth of God's Word is a rarity in these parts.

Now if one were to build from scratch a 18-54 year old based CCM radio station and promote it right, then this person would experience a goldmine in their underformatted city and help bring a much needed revival and spiritual awakening to it. Well one person is doing just that and hopes to begin broadcasting between December 2015 and March 2016.

Dan <><

R.D.P. said:

A day in the life of Me.

Listening to the Gospel blocks and stations here is very boring, bland and dull indeed.

All I get is these thoughts and ideas:

1. God woke me up this morning and started me on my way. (Glad He did it but too many songs are promoting this now and I'm bored with it!)
2. God wants everyone to have the wealth of the wicked, always be well and wise. (Not Biblical at all.)
3. God owes us something, because of various issues and circumstances. (Not Biblical at all.)
4. Southern Gospel is God's official ordained music for the Church. (I Head that recently and it offended me.)
5. Too much Praising God and not enough of teaching people how to fulfill the Great Commission. (So sad indeed.)

Now when one is daily being feed those examples, it does lead to boredom. When one gets bored, they tend to protest and find something else to listen to on purpose. The Christianity we have here isn't Biblical at all. The truth of God's Word is a rarity in these parts.

Now if one were to build from scratch a 18-54 year old based CCM radio station and promote it right, then this person would experience a goldmine in their underformatted city and help bring a much needed revival and spiritual awakening to it. Well one person is doing just that and hopes to begin broadcasting between December 2015 and March 2016.

Dan <><

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Some of the stuff I have heard in Christian lyrics appalls me. It isn't limited to just gospel. I've seen mindless, scripturally bad statements in every single style - including hymns. That is one reason why I insist on listening to every single song before airing it.

I do think that CCM oldies (prior praise and worship movement) had stronger lyrics than much of it today. Not to take anything away from artists doing their best to produce Godly music, but some of the old stuff is really in-your-face uncompromising deep teaching and convicting of sin. Hats off to those older artists - they had a lot of things right. It is a shame they were shunned for wimpy praise and worship - which is DEFINITELY wimped out on scriptural content as well as musical style.

Most of Christian radio, doesn't impress me either. Too much fluff and not enough meat in the message.

Dan <><

In fact it is downright Nicolaitan in its commercialism in some respects.

There are a lot of 'teaching' programs on the AM band Christian stations that have plenty of 'meat' in them. The Charles STanleys and Chuck Swindolls aren't exactly what I'd call fluff.

As for Christian music radio, I really don't know about that -- I never listen to it.

gr8oldies said:

I guess I would ask what makes you the final arbiter of how to properly interpret the Bible.

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Were you referring to my comment? Or somebody else's.