Not true worship

This doesn't necessarily relate to radio, except for the fact that I heard this on NPR.

A church organist and singer says only the traditional music used in churches for centuries is "true worship". The contemporary music used in so many churches is bringing in the world and not "true worship".

For me, this is true. The new music just sounds like the world. I can only accept in church the traditional music and newer music that has been around long enough to seem like it belongs in church.

For others who wouldn't be in church without the new music, I have to concede that this change is necessary for them, in their own churches, for churches to reach them.

Psalm 100:1-5 says "Shout for joy to the LORD, all the earth. Worship the LORD with gladness; come before him with joyful songs." You'll notice it doesn't say what kind of joyful songs, just joyful songs. Whatever you take joy in, whatever genre of music you prefer, you can use it to worship. In fact, in Isaiah 29:13, "The Lord says: 'These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.'" We've had people come up with man-made rules for what supposedly is and isn't worship since the dawn of time, and God keeps reminding us that He really doesn't care. As long as you're worshiping Him and Him alone -- and making a "joyful noise" (Psalm 100:1 in KJV) in doing so -- it's true worship.

Monks in a monastery had their regular worship services of song and prayer. One night they decided that there was certain music that would be more pleasing to God, so they hired a professional organist and singer who was pitch perfect.

After the service, the Lord appeared among the monks to say that He had missed them and their worship service. They were flabbergasted and explained that they were off pitch, off key, couldn't carry a tune and just wanted Him to hear something organized and beautiful.

The Lord said, "Theirs wasn't worship; yours is".

Interesting topic. My take is the music is or is not ‘true worship’ based more on our personal experiences. Sometimes this can be influenced by the denomination. The most important part is to truly worship, so finding the comfort zone is everything.

I recall a conversation with a preacher that did a short devotional each day on the small market station I worked for. His point was looking at the outside sometimes wasn’t a true picture of the inside. He said regardless of where the chips feel, it was the intent and/or motivation that was important more than the reaction. In other words, the outward music is less important than whether the person is experiencing true worship through the music.

Much like the off-key Monks, it is what is in our hearts that counts. Outwardly it might not seem worshipful to some but what matters is if it is worshipful to those in attendance and allows them to do so.

http://www.npr.org/2015/01/18/378116252/longtime-church-organist-keeps-traditional-hymns-alive

I didn't think to do this before posting.

Note in the article that this man is 86. I usually account the attitude anyone like him toward CCM to age and lack of knowledge on the subject. His views won't change the mind of anyone who knows the truth about CCM. All it will do is reinforce the biases of people who are looking for any excuse to be against it.

Other than that I'll just say that God uses all musical styles from Gregorian chants and classical to rock and rap. We've gone through all this in other threads, and there's no point in dragging it up again.

Agreed. I have been going through my private collection of CCM / Christian rock from the 70's, 80's, and early 90's - digitizing and archiving. Everything from the era before the praise and worship movement devastated CCM and ruined its effectiveness as a tool to reach young people. I notice that the lyrics are clearer and more "in your face" about Jesus than the new era of Christian rock music and Christian hip-hop. But I am convinced that the new material is effective at reaching its intended audience, and therefore as valid as a tool to reach young people. CCM and Christian rock is experiencing a renaissance after the long 20 year dark age of praise and worship, and I only hope there is some place - maybe a Christian oldies show - for the old material. CCM has a rich history stretching back to - and even before - the Jesus movement in the 70's. I would hate to see these great old songs lost forever. I would definitely put them in occasional rotation on any Christian station - AC CCM, Hot AC, or Christian rock today.

I remember when the praise and worship people started in - they were convinced that Sandy(i) Patty was God's gift to CCM radio, and songs that never even charted were given Dove awards. Sometimes in the wrong year - so she would win every year. Somebody really creative like Leslie (Sam) Phillips was called a "fluff head" - which hurt her so much that she left Christian music. Well, that and being called a Christian Cyndi Lauper - which was NOT meant as a compliment. Leslie was so nice, I remember talking to her at length and she spent the time before her concert visiting with little kids. God was not mocked, God was not fooled. Those Dove awards for Sandy Patty were consumed in a fire after her fall into adultery. Poor Sandy, I remember her in 1980 - when she was still thin and actually looked "hot" - and her music was upbeat, creative, and definitely on the Hot AC side. My how she changed. Some us us suspected the truth long before, and were supporting new artists like Leslie Phillips instead.

Wasn't the only time some of us were right, either. I was alarmed that Jimmy Swaggart lashed out at Kathy Trocolli for a CCM magazine cover. She was beautiful on the cover, the picture was quite modest, and you had to really stare to see even a hint of cleavage. But Swaggart was shooting off his mouth and embarrassed her greatly. I remember talking to a Swaggart enthusiast about my suspicions. He was incensed - and asked if I was calling Swaggart a pervert. This was two years before Swaggart fell. Darn I hate it when I am right.

Just memories from an aging CCM radio host - of an era long past.

One of my Facebook friends posted something about "worshiptainment" but I don't have the link. Her church seems to do the new music, though they might do some traditional music as well. But the church seems to have the right attitude that would make it all right, and there is no question about the degree of her faith and her effectiveness as a witness, as she continues to rely on God regardless of how many trials she experiences or how many obstacles are put in her path. She does disagree with some fundamentalists on certain issues, but she has the important part right.

anotherguy said:

Note in the article that this man is 86. I usually account the attitude anyone like him toward CCM to age and lack of knowledge on the subject. His views won't change the mind of anyone who knows the truth about CCM. All it will do is reinforce the biases of people who are looking for any excuse to be against it.

Other than that I'll just say that God uses all musical styles from Gregorian chants and classical to rock and rap. We've gone through all this in other threads, and there's no point in dragging it up again.

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God is older than 86, and I can guarantee that His mind will not be changed about anything...not yesterday, not today, not forever from now.

The anti-CCM crowd, it seems, will always be with us - just as the anti-organ crowd - that threw the organ from First Baptist Houston into Buffalo Bayou in the mid 1800's because they were convinced organs were too entertaining and possessed by the devil.

Fortunately, our God is bigger than any small interpretation of what is "right" Christian music and what music is "wrong" Christian music. Small interpretation = small vision of God = weak faith, easily shaken. Large interpretation = broadly based, secure foundation of faith = never in danger of being shaken.

Then you have groups like the Church of Christ who teach that there should be NO instrumental music of any kind in worship. But even some of them use contemporary songs in their a cappella style, and some of the more "liberal" churches accept CCM outside of worship as "Monday through Saturday music." I'm not saying that I totally agree with their views but I can come closer to agreeing with their ideas than the idea that some musical styles are acceptable for worship but not others.

anotherguy said:

Then you have groups like the Church of Christ who teach that there should be NO instrumental music of any kind in worship. But even some of them use contemporary songs in their a cappella style, and some of the more "liberal" churches accept CCM outside of worship as "Monday through Saturday music." I'm not saying that I totally agree with their views but I can come closer to agreeing with their ideas than the idea that some musical styles are acceptable for worship but not others.

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I showed one CoC girl Psalm 150 - and her response was interesting and a bit disturbing. She told me CoC doesn't believe in the Old Testament. I also asked her why their churches have bathrooms, because there is no mention of urination or defecation in the New Testament.

I am preparing to go back on the air with one or more Christian oldies specials. The depth of faith expressed in the lyrics of these old Christian rock songs are timeless, and need to be played. Here is an example:

Another day in Nigeria
The children beg for bread
The crops failed, the well ran dry
When they lost the watershed

A baby dies, its mother cries
The children gather 'round
They're wondering what the day will bring
Will they be the next one found

Do you dare to gaze into their hollow eyes
Hollow eyes?
Are they staring holes in you with their hollow eyes
Hollow eyes, hollow eyes?

In the crowded sheds, the children lay their heads
To escape the Haitian heat
The hunger pains drive them to the street
Wondering if today they'll eat

Some found food in the refuse heap
Others find disease
Some find it harder just to live
When they can die with ease

Do you dare to gaze into their hollow eyes
Hollow eyes?
Are they staring holes in you with their hollow eyes
Hollow eyes, hollow eyes?

The least of these is hungry
The least of these is sick
The least of these needs clothing
The least of these needs drink

The least of these knows sorrow
The least of these knows grief
The least of these suffers pain
And Jesus is His name

Do you dare to gaze into His hollow eyes
Hollow eyes?
Is He staring back at you with His hollow eyes
Hollow eyes, hollow eyes, hollow eyes, hollow eyes?

- Petra - Hollow Eyes

Of course, a lot of these old songs have that evil anapestic beat and use satan's instrument the drums, etc. AV1611 and the other anti-CCM, anti-Christian rock folks had better beware - God has been moving, and is continuing to move - in directions outside your comfort zone. Either get on board with God's direction, or stay silent!

Man, that makes me want to dig out my old Petra albums!

Have some of their classic CD's too. I don't think that song is in my mix. Will get more of their tunes, over the next few weeks, as I can snag them. The new LPFM radio station, is still in the works. Going to milk this CP for what it's worth. Not ready to give up yet.

Dan <><

P.S. Been sharing some of my music collection, with the flock, before we eat on Wednesday night. Getting them ready for Jesus Radio. About two weeks ago, I slipped in a few songs from Mr. Michael Card. Everyone present seemed to enjoy him. Plan on playing more of his music, in the future.

rbrucecarter5 said:

I showed one CoC girl Psalm 150 - and her response was interesting and a bit disturbing. She told me CoC doesn't believe in the Old Testament. I also asked her why their churches have bathrooms, because there is no mention of urination or defecation in the New Testament.

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What she said isn't totally accurate. Most CoC's believe that Biblical commands in the New Testament supersede the Old Testament if there is any kind of change. But they take it to a legalistic extreme that if something isn't specifically mentioned in the NT it isn't allowed, and since instrumental music isn't mentioned when worship is talked about in the NT it isn't allowed, even though there isn't a Biblical command that forbids it. They claim that to allow instrumental music is adding to scripture, even though they're guilty of it themselves by not allowing it with no scriptural basis.

I heard a young CoC preacher on the radio once that really screwed up in trying to explain Psalm 150. He said that King David was out of God's will when he wrote Psalm 150. HUH??? If he was out of God's will WHY is it in the Bible???

I know of CoC people who don't really go to the extreme of claiming they're the only true Christians, but they don't say so in the church. The only way that I see that groups like the CoC, Independent Baptists, etc. will change is for people from the inside to speak out against the false teaching. But they risk being thrown out in the process. Those of us on the outside can speak out but they very rarely will listen to us. But there are some who are bringing about change. There are more CoCs that accept other churches now even though the traditionalists accuse them of being "liberal." Max Lucado is a CoC preacher that I respect very much because he has associated with other Christian groups, and he has taken heat from the CoC traditionalists because of it.

Of course, a lot of these old songs have that evil anapestic beat and use satan's instrument the drums, etc. AV1611 and the other anti-CCM, anti-Christian rock folks had better beware - God has been moving, and is continuing to move - in directions outside your comfort zone. Either get on board with God's direction, or stay silent!

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Amen!!!

P.S. Bruce,
I hope you'll put your specials online where we can hear them. Thanks!

JoshTheRadioDude said:

Man, that makes me want to dig out my old Petra albums!

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I've been listening to a lot of Petra and other classic CCM and Christian rock and also some more current music on my MP3 player and Pandora in recent years. Here is some of what I have set up with stations in Pandora:

Petra
Phil Keaggy
Randy Stonehill
Larry Norman
Daniel Amos
Swirling Eddies
Steve Taylor
DeGarmo & Key
Sweet Comfort Band
Allies
Rich Mullins
Newsboys
Third Day
DC Talk

And I'll play it on shuffle a lot of the time.

I'm thankful that K-LOVE is in my area and I do still listen to them at times, but I still want to hear classic CCM, and that isn't being done on radio anywhere in my area.

R.D.P. said:

Have some of their classic CD's too. I don't think that song is in my mix. Will get more of their tunes, over the next few weeks, as I can snag them. The new LPFM radio station, is still in the works. Going to milk this CP for what it's worth. Not ready to give up yet.

Dan <><

P.S. Been sharing some of my music collection, with the flock, before we eat on Wednesday night. Getting them ready for Jesus Radio. About two weeks ago, I slipped in a few songs from Mr. Michael Card. Everyone present seemed to enjoy him. Plan on playing more of his music, in the future.

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About the only Michael Card that fits my format is "Scandalon" - but it is a good one! I borrow Bruce Morrow's idea (so nice they did it twice) and played his version of "I Have Decided" paired with Amy Grant's version. And "I Have Decided" fits in well with a Christian country segment I did with some country songs from Love Song, Dogwood, and Mustard Seed Faith. Not enough out there for a full show of Christian country, but there was enough for a half hour segment. Country is a bit outside of my comfort zone.

A funny thing happened to me tonight. I played some CCM CD's. Had a person to protest because he claimed volume was a bit loud. I didn't think the volume was. The acoustics in our fellowship hall is bad anyway. I played four songs, I liked. After I played them, he told me to turn it off. I did just that Then me and my parents made the decision that I would no longer play music, before our supper. Now here's the funny part of the incident. Follow along with me. The songs this fellow was protesting was timeless Hymns. You heard me right. I was playing Bart Millard's awesome rendition of Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus, His foot stomper version of I Saw The Light, His moving rendition of I Stand Amazed and Michael Tait's moving version of How Great Thou Art. Those four songs are personal favorites of mine. I love them very much. And yes, those renditions will be played on the SG program, I plan on doing, in heavy rotation.

Dan <><

P.S. Now if anyone from my home Church is going to tell me how to run this radio station, they're sadly mistaken. I have rules that I must abide by. If I chose not to obey them, then the FCC will punish me severely.

And what's Dan's takeaway from tonight's experience?

By his own admission, he was playing personal favorites. Could this be a lesson teaching that his personal taste, or the personal taste of his family, usually doesn't reflect the taste of your listener group?

If so, then why is he boldly going to program his radio station based on his or his families taste in music?

R.D.P. said:

A funny thing happened to me tonight. I played some CCM CD's. Had a person to protest because he claimed volume was a bit loud. I didn't think the volume was. The acoustics in our fellowship hall is bad anyway. I played four songs, I liked. After I played them, he told me to turn it off. I did just that Then me and my parents made the decision that I would no longer play music, before our supper. Now here's the funny part of the incident. Follow along with me. The songs this fellow was protesting was timeless Hymns. You heard me right. I was playing Bart Millard's awesome rendition of Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus, His foot stomper version of I Saw The Light, His moving rendition of I Stand Amazed and Michael Tait's moving version of How Great Thou Art. Those four songs are personal favorites of mine. I love them very much. And yes, those renditions will be played on the SG program, I plan on doing, in heavy rotation.

Dan <><

P.S. Now if anyone from my home Church is going to tell me how to run this radio station, they're sadly mistaken. I have rules that I must abide by. If I chose not to obey them, then the FCC will punish me severely.

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You had ONE person complain, and you stop playing music? What about everybody else that was blessed by the music! I am of the opinion that anybody that disrupts an audio technician working at a church should be escorted out by security. Why? Because it happened to ME! An irate mother interrupted me during a children's service "your audio is too loud don't you know it can cause hearing damage you ought to turn it down" stuff. It really wasn't. All of the sudden the audio DID go silent. Why? Because she had almost literally dragged me away from the board. She disrupted the service for everybody else in the room. She was in the wrong for distracting a church sound person. No other way to look at it! Her kid was back the next Sunday wearing ridiculous ear muffs! And the poor kid got picked on by the other kids!

Crackpots and nuts like that should never be allowed to disrupt the service, and that includes music before the service, music at church functions like dinners, etc. There are passages in Corinthians about proper behavior in church - and what is NOT appropriate. Next time I am in that situation - I will give security the signal - the disruptive person will be OUT OF THERE!!!! I encourage you to do the same.

Do not forget to secure the door and assets of your station. I had some incidents, and they were scary. They were perpetrated by opponents of Christian rock music, and by one Mormon. You need physical security, peepholes in door, alarm systems, and the police on speed dial. And that is NOT because you are doing anything outside of God's will. It is because you are in the public eye, and anybody in the public eye attracts attention - some of it from NUTS. You could play CCM, Christian rock, or hymns, all southern gospel, preaching, or white noise for that matter - somebody won't like it and be a potential threat. Oh and anything outdoors that is copper - spray paint it with aluminum paint so it looks cheap. School of hard knocks -----

Say it with me - if it isn't obvious: Disruptive people are under the influence of SATAN! Treat them as such.