The Last Mono FM Stations in Los Angeles?

I was reading over at L.A. Radio about KGBS and KFOX by self proclaimed L.A. Radio expert K.M Richards being the last mono stations in the Southland yet this doesn't seem correct to me? Can anyone think of L.A. area stations that continued broadcasting in Mono into the 80's? One for sure was run by a screaming Madman.

I thought KKLA 99.5 was a long time mono hold out well into the 90s.

Happy Thanksgiving!!

SuperRadioFan said:

I thought KKLA 99.5 was a long time mono hold out well into the 90s.

Happy Thanksgiving!!

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There you go, thank you as KHOF with Dr. Gene Scott, and even KMAX out of Arcadia were mono way into the 80's. KMR, why do you correct people all the time when you are wrong yourself? I'd write Don to correct your correction but you are simply not worth it!

Scott

You know, Scott, if you weren't so eager to point out my errors, you could have waited until Don's next column, because we spent part of yesterday sending e-mails all over the place, both to correct my less-than-perfect memory and to determine which was the last mono FM.

Guess what? In your eagerness to prove your point, you jumped on the first piece of information you found and ...

KHOF-FM was in stereo by 1977 at the latest, confirmed by one of their engineers who left Faith Center's employ in June of that year and said they had definitely converted from mono by the time he left.

We are also certain that 107.1 was stereo by the time of the Y-107 modern rock format, but it is also probable that KMAX went stereo by 1991, the year the trimulcast with Ventura and Fallbrook started, as those two stations were already stereo when acquired. It could have been earlier, but we've not been able to track anyone down from when Max owned the station. Or might you have that on your resume?

I might also point out that jumping all over me for something this trivial has lowered the "let's all pile on to K.M." frenzy to a level of pettiness never before seen. Are you so perfect that you have never made a misstatement because you failed to remember something?

K.M., perhaps you can explain why, when the sound of an FM station is fuzzy and muffled, it sounds so much better when I hit the "mono" button. I know it has something to do with the multiplexing but how do two fuzzy signals become a single clear signal?

Some people think that AM stereo sounds better than FM stereo. Why has AM stereo never caught on? In California, only two AM stations broadcast in stereo: a sports talk station and a Christian talk station. I can't imagine listeners being excited about hearing two guys complain about the Dodgers and Lakers in stereo. Here is a list of the world's few AM stereo stations:

http://meduci.com/stations.html

LARadioRewind said:

K.M., perhaps you can explain why, when the sound of an FM station is fuzzy and muffled, it sounds so much better when I hit the "mono" button. I know it has something to do with the multiplexing but how do two fuzzy signals become a single clear signal?

Some people think that AM stereo sounds better than FM stereo. Why has AM stereo never caught on? In California, only two AM stations broadcast in stereo: a sports talk station and a Christian talk station. I can't imagine listeners being excited about hearing two guys complain about the Dodgers and Lakers in stereo. Here is a list of the world's few AM stereo stations:

http://meduci.com/stations.html

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In order for FM to broadcast in stereo, it was decided that it would have to be completely compatible with mono. The existing system is but at the cost of more noise and more susceptibility to multipath interference. This stereo system also decreases coverage, so if you're at the fringe of the signal, it could easily "fuzz up". AM stereo was a victim of bad timing. By the time a system was chosen, FM had already won the race for music. Lot's of stations jumped in briefly, during the early to mid-80s but it was too little, too late.

What semoochie said is correct, but I thought you might want to know why.

Here's a good brief tutorial on the subject: http://www.silabs.com/Marcom Documents/Resources/FMTutorial.pdf

Skip the whole section on "FM Basics" as the scientific notations will give anyone but the hardest-core engineer an Excedrin headache. What you want to know is in the section on "Stereo FM-Multiplex Signal" on pages 6 and 7.

Look at Figure 6 on page 7 and you can see that the L-R component used to decode stereo is modulated at one-half the L+R (mono) component. That means there is much greater potential for the noise and multipath interference that semoochie referenced. (You can stop reading after that diagram, as there are more mathematical calculations designed to give you more headaches.)

The other reason, tucked away in the text on page 6, is that the L-R component is amplitude modulated (AM) so as not to interfere with the L+R (mono FM) component for receivers that are not decoding stereo. That makes the L-R portion of the signal more interference-prone, which adds to the potential for it to "fuzz up".

When you switch the receiver to "mono" it no longer pays attention to anything but the L+R signal, so all the possible reasons for "fuzziness" are no longer a factor.

How KBOB 98.3 West Covina? I know KMAX was mono when old Max owned it. I think but I am not sure if Universal went stereo with it when they bought it to go all relig.

Hi all. KMAX was mono when I left for Tehachapi in 82 Jim Rowles took over there for me for around a year still in mono. The studio was wired for mono only and audio was fed into a DAP with limiter board set for 75 pre emphasis into a Jim Lawrence Elcom composite clipper. Universal wanted loud! As there was a SCA client running 20% injection. The exciter was a Collins 310z and McMartin 3.5k. 3 bay Jam pro on a pole

Thanks. George chambers. [email protected]

That's another potential candidate, but I've run into another information gap in researching further.

By the late 1980s, nearly every FM in the country was transmitting in stereo, and the Broadcasting Yearbook stopped including notations in station listings about stereo operation.

It seems reasonable to presume that 98.3 was stereo by 1993, when it was Spanish-language as "La Maquina" under El Dorado Communications. I don't think it was ever religious as the Yearbooks show it under Burdette ownership until December 30, 1992.

KMAX became KLYY (Y-107) in 1996 so if the stereo wasn't added under Douglas Communications' ownership during the sports-talk trimulcast starting in 1991 it had to have been then.

Unless someone who was actually there at the time (as in the KHOF-FM case) can provide information, it's probably a toss-up between KBOB/98.3 and KMAX/107.1 as to who the last was to operate in mono.

K.M. Richards said:

What semoochie said is correct, but I thought you might want to know why.

Here's a good brief tutorial on the subject: http://www.silabs.com/Marcom Documents/Resources/FMTutorial.pdf

Skip the whole section on "FM Basics" as the scientific notations will give anyone but the hardest-core engineer an Excedrin headache. What you want to know is in the section on "Stereo FM-Multiplex Signal" on pages 6 and 7.

Look at Figure 6 on page 7 and you can see that the L-R component used to decode stereo is modulated at one-half the L+R (mono) component. That means there is much greater potential for the noise and multipath interference that semoochie referenced. (You can stop reading after that diagram, as there are more mathematical calculations designed to give you more headaches.)

The other reason, tucked away in the text on page 6, is that the L-R component is amplitude modulated (AM) so as not to interfere with the L+R (mono FM) component for receivers that are not decoding stereo. That makes the L-R portion of the signal more interference-prone, which adds to the potential for it to "fuzz up".

When you switch the receiver to "mono" it no longer pays attention to anything but the L+R signal, so all the possible reasons for "fuzziness" are no longer a factor.

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Thank you, KM. By the way the question was asked, I sensed that a non-technical answer might be appreciated. I'm the go-to guy for non-technical answers because I know more about certain things than the average person but soon get lost after that. I even left out the name of the system because it didn't seem essential to my point.

Thank you, K.M. and semoochie, for the explanation of how a fuzzy stereo signal becomes clear when converted to mono. I'm always curious about how and why things work the way they do. As Mara Wilson's character said in the Matilda movie, I want to know everything!

There is a very brief history of AM stereo on the FCC's website:

http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-stereo-broadcasting

K.M. Richards said:

You know, Scott, if you weren't so eager to point out my errors, you could have waited until Don's next column, because we spent part of yesterday sending e-mails all over the place, both to correct my less-than-perfect memory and to determine which was the last mono FM.

Guess what? In your eagerness to prove your point, you jumped on the first piece of information you found and ...

KHOF-FM was in stereo by 1977 at the latest, confirmed by one of their engineers who left Faith Center's employ in June of that year and said they had definitely converted from mono by the time he left.

We are also certain that 107.1 was stereo by the time of the Y-107 modern rock format, but it is also probable that KMAX went stereo by 1991, the year the trimulcast with Ventura and Fallbrook started, as those two stations were already stereo when acquired. It could have been earlier, but we've not been able to track anyone down from when Max owned the station. Or might you have that on your resume?

I might also point out that jumping all over me for something this trivial has lowered the "let's all pile on to K.M." frenzy to a level of pettiness never before seen. Are you so perfect that you have never made a misstatement because you failed to remember something?

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You are full of it KM. KHOF and Doctor Gene Scott were mono way into the 80's, same with KMAX and I'm glad someone brought up KBOB as well. Please don't PM me anymore, nor attempt to write me at my personal email again, ok?

We all have subjective opinions about relative talent of others; we also all at times overlook or mis-remember facts. None of these human foibles makes anyone a bad person or a disgrace to anything, It is, however, sad to see adults piling on others like kids whose parents never taught them manners. Why not simply express your own opinions and allow others theirs? Similarly, add facts if you have them and let them speak for themselves rather than stirring in personal vitriol.

Well I for one had my Girlfriend donate One Million Dollars to the Mono KHOF and Doctor Scott in 1981. They soon after wouldn't stop calling her trying to collect. When I worked there in 1993 under Salem they were of course Stereo. KMAX was playing the Music of your Life type music in 1991 in Mono using Broadcast Students. By the time they were bought by Big City of course they were Stereo. I just get a kick that KM will argue with anyone who will listen to him, and most people just don't want to hear from him. He knows Ventura and Classic TV. He is also a picker of 80's music for his one station he consults, again a self proclaimed expert?

MadMan said:

You are full of it KM. KHOF and Doctor Gene Scott were mono way into the 80's, same with KMAX and I'm glad someone brought up KBOB as well. Please don't PM me anymore, nor attempt to write me at my personal email again, ok?

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I direct you -- and anyone else who wants first-hand confirmation of when KHOF-FM went stereo, to look at this page on Joe Snelson's website on the history of Faith Broadcasting Network: http://fbn.faithbroadcastingnetwork.info

Joe was an engineer at FBN and in response to an e-mail (which Don Barrett has a copy of, in case you doubt its existence) wrote that "KHOF-FM was stereo and broadcast music in stereo for a short period of time in the mid to late 1970's. Once Dr. Scott went to airing only his teachings being stereo was a moot point."

Joe was at KHOF until June, 1977 and says KHOF-FM was stereo when he left there.

As for PMs and e-mails, forgive me for trying to address you in private rather than take up even more space in this thread dealing with your rants. I don't know what your obsession is but I will honor your request. But you also need to stop dredging up the past on the boards if you're not going to allow me to deal with your issues in private.

Postscript:

KMAX was owned by John Douglas starting in 1989 (sale announced in Broadcasting November 14, 1988). He is also who acquired the 107.1 signals in Ventura and Fallbrook (Broadcasting article, September 16, 1991) and created the all-sports trimulcast in February, 1995 (original start referenced in Los Angeles Times article on the pending flip to Y-107, March 26, 1996).

Big City (which was Odyssey Communications at the time the sale was negotiated) did not acquire those stations until 1996 (sale announced in Broadcasting December 4, 1995 and new corporate name referenced in announcement of an unrelated sale in Broadcasting June 1, 1998 ... same principal, Michael Kakoyiannis).

So I don't know how "Big City" could have been running a Standards format on 107.1 in 1991.

I did, however, clear up some earlier confusion. Universal owned KMAX between Max Isoard and John Douglas, which may be what the previous poster was remembering as 98.3's ownership timeline. The article I referenced for the sale to Douglas did say 107.1 was running religious programming at the time the sale was announced.

I may not know everything but I do know how to research and fact check. It seems to me that my main fault here was in sending an e-mail to Don Barrett on KGBS-FM without searching my memory for other stations that should have been researched first.

No I never said Big City was in the picture when the Broadcast Student kids were doing Standards in 91. I think it was owned by Max back then? I just remember both KMAX and Dr. Scott were broadcasting in Mono in the early 80's and KMAX into the early 90's, that being my only observation. I loved watching Dr. Scott on TV and tuning in to KHOF FM while on the road. That song "I wanna Know" was very popular back then, in fact it went #1 at KHOF. Whether they in fact had upgraded to Stereo and decided to not use the carrier who knows. For that matter KGBS AM & FM was doing Stereo back in the early 70's under nutty Dave Hull. You held up the AM signal to one ear, and the FM signal to another ear and Dave would separate the feed, he was just kidding around of course, what a great man. At AM 930 Dave was our morning man and only live voice and I will never forget pulled 4 hours worth of Commercials and Music for me when I followed him as "Brother John". Of course there were a couple of other AM Stereo stations as David has written about, KPOL being one of them, but this conversation was about FM Stereo in Southern California. Didn't N. John Douglass also own KYPA when I worked there in 98 before moving his operation to San Francisco? His son helped me get my Federal Job with the State Department! I mentioned Scott Greene worked there as well as they had a full compliment of AFTRA announcers yet nobody seems to remember him. It is true we all have specific memories from the old days and can't we all just get along at Rodney King once said?

MadMan said:

No I never said Big City was in the picture when the Broadcast Student kids were doing Standards in 91. I think it was owned by Max back then? I just remember both KMAX and Dr. Scott were broadcasting in Mono in the early 80's and KMAX into the early 90's, that being my only observation. I loved watching Dr. Scott on TV and tuning in to KHOF FM while on the road. That song "I wanna Know" was very popular back then, in fact it went #1 at KHOF. Whether they in fact had upgraded to Stereo and decided to not use the carrier who knows. For that matter KGBS AM & FM was doing Stereo back in the early 70's under nutty Dave Hull. You held up the AM signal to one ear, and the FM signal to another ear and Dave would separate the feed, he was just kidding around of course, what a great man. At AM 930 Dave was our morning man and only live voice and I will never forget pulled 4 hours worth of Commercials and Music for me when I followed him as "Brother John". Of course there were a couple of other AM Stereo stations as David has written about, KPOL being one of them, but this conversation was about FM Stereo in Southern California. Didn't N. John Douglass also own KYPA when I worked there in 98 before moving his operation to San Francisco? His son helped me get my Federal Job with the State Department! I mentioned Scott Greene worked there as well as they had a full compliment of AFTRA announcers yet nobody seems to remember him. It is true we all have specific memories from the old days and can't we all just get along at Rodney King once said?

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Sorry for the confusion on Big City. This conversation is starting to make me slightly dizzy.

As I referenced earlier, Douglas acquired KMAX in 1989, so if it was 1991 that they did Standards (I remember there being a revolving door of formats during Douglas' ownership) it wasn't under Max.

Joe Snelson did say that KHOF-FM was essentially a simulcast of channel 30 in its last years and he thinks they left the stereo pilot on even though the programming was mono, because by then a lot of FM receivers would lock on to the pilot instead of the main signal unless they were set to "mono" receive mode.

And your memory of John Douglas owning KYPA is correct. Even as he was selling the 107.1 trimulcast to Odyssey he had formed a new corporation called "Personal Achievement Radio, Inc." and was negotiating to buy what were KGFJ/1230 Los Angeles, KPPC/1240 Pasadena, and KTSJ/1220 Pomona. KGFJ became KYPA, KTSJ became KWPA, and I don't remember if he even changed the calls on KPPC (the notice of his purchasing the Seattle station in 1996 still had those calls listed for it). He bought stations in San Diego, San Jose, rimshots in Sacramento, Chicago, Boston, New York and Houston for that venture as well, and still owned the San Francisco AM that had come along with KMAX which you referenced as his later headquarters location.

One of Douglas' rimshots in Chicago, WVVX in Highland Park, later became WXXY and was the nation's first all-80s station, called (how about that) The Eighties Channel. That station was the inspiration for the format that I researched for a client whose acquisition of the station he was going to run it on fell through, and is the format which runs on KRKE in Albuquerque in a modified form. I have lots of WXXY airchecks and am in frequent contact with Jeffrey T. Mason, who was the night jock and APD/MD there. (Heckuva nice guy, that Jeffro.)

In reviewing this thread, I note that one of my former employers George Chambers posted as a guest several days ago and his post (#9) was finally cleared by a moderator. I think he clears up the question of KMAX being mono at least as late as 1982 under Universal (I think it likely that it was still mono when Douglas acquired it seven years later). Maybe George will come back and tell us about that wacky idea Universal had to make KPPC a night-only operation.

I met George one wild night at KCSN when the Campus Police took him away, they could be creepy. Even he didn't remember that, something to do with his Car. I know he wound up owning some stations, nice guy. When I left Unistar in 1991 I was listening to KMAX and those Students. One guy called himself Jesus, and I think Rudy Grande had a slot as well. KHOF was always joke under Doc Scott, 1980-83 is about the time he was picking on the FCC with those clapping toy monkeys and all his Federal problems. The Fed's didn't appreciate it, or him for that matter! Giving him 1 Million dollars looking back was not a good idea via an 800 number. They were quite aggressive trying to collect. I didn't consider KMAX a major Southern California Station but Doc Scott's 77 KW (please forgive me if I am off) was, and since he was just doing a simulcast of his mono TV feed maybe that's why in the early 80's he was a standout in mono. What a TV signal as well, I lived right near his TV transmitter when I worked for Fred Cote in Riverside. I can't think of any other Mono stations and these two just stood out, perhaps 87.7 was also in Mono playing Channel 6 or 8 from San Diego. These were good times and certainly not worth any argument or insults coming from me. I do apologize although I stand by my 2 station observations, one in the early 80's and one in the early 90's. As far as Big City, when they went Spanish I invested $1000 in Miami, the next week the stock was worth $400. Making money is not my bag, baby!