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Talk Radio Scoreboard for Major Markets: October 2014

TheBigA said:
That may be, but it doesn't change the fact that advertising agencies typically don't pitch non-commercial radio stations.

If a company wants to utilize underwriting or sponsorship, it'll come from a different part of the company than traditional advertising.
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Wrong. Totally, completely wrong. The Marketing Communications Department is responsible for all marketing communications. They hire agencies to handle all aspects of their total marketing communications efforts. The reason why agencies seldom include non-commercial underwriting is that it is a specialty tactic, useful or necessary in a limited number of situations. When the client has a need for corporate image building, the non-commercial underwriting is one of the more effective tools. More commonly needed is brand positioning relative to competitors, and non-commercial underwriting is not effective for that task. But the fact that any given technique might only be needed in relatively few situations doesn't prove that it isn't an effective technique that is appropriate when and where it is needed.

For example, a natural gas company might need commercial radio ads, and lots of them, to convince consumers to pick their service over someone else's. But that same company might also need some serious image enhancement if tree-huggers are attacking them over fracking. For that latter purpose, non-commercial underwriting is one of the appropriate venues. So is commercial news/talk radio. Therefore, in that situation, a comparison of the ratings between Sean Hannity and All Things Considered is a valid consideration.
 
NPR, at most, runs brief underwriting credits. It's different at the local level, and each station sells its own "underwriting announcements" and makes its own rules. Some are really pushing the envelope and blurring the distinction between commercial spot announcements and underwriting credits. They give the website URL or even a phone number but they don't specifically say to visit the website or call the number. They extol the virtues of a company, its services or products, but they don't make comparisons. To the typical listener, it sounds like a commercial. They run for 30 seconds and sometimes they let the client voice his own spots.

Public radio news and talk stations have all the ingredients of news/talk: News. Hosts who talk. Guests who talk. Callers who talk. And some of the same people who want to claim public radio news/talk is not really news/talk are often the ones who argue public radio has a distinct point of view (or "bias," a word used to label a point of view one does not agree with) - just like El Rushbo and the rest of right-wing talk.

But Gregg does not like public radio. It's biased, not like Rush who presents THE TRUTH. So, let's pretend public radio is not there. And let's ignore the fact that it gets better numbers in those "major markets" than many of his listed stations.
 
Avid Listener said:
Wrong. Totally, completely wrong. The Marketing Communications Department is responsible for all marketing communications. They hire agencies to handle all aspects of their total marketing communications efforts. The reason why agencies seldom include non-commercial underwriting is that it is a specialty tactic, useful or necessary in a limited number of situations.
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If you look at both the national and local public reports of such stations, you see that much of the funding comes from "grants". Those come directly from a different department of major corporations and not through advertising departments or agencies.

The rest of the underwriting generally comes in the form of corporate support, and the public stations mention having staffers who do high level corporate contacts to obtain such support. Since underwriting money is not commisionable in the vast majority of cases and is not handled by traditional agency order procedures, ad agencies and buying services are typically not involved.

The agency, though, may create, on a fee basis, the copy or copy points for companies that wish to support public broadcasting.

If and when an ad agency is involved, it will most likely be via the agency's PR department (if it has one) and come from a PR budget as opposed to an ad / marketing budget.

In addition, BigA has considerable non-com broadcast experience... when did you work at a significant non-profit station?
 
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wadio said:
I believe the biggest difference between NPR underwriting and commercial advertising is that the former cannot contain a "call to action."
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Also proscribed are things like price-item copy points, product comparisons, use of puffery like "best" or "superior to all others", announcements of sales and prices or discounts and such.
 
HERE ARE THE "MISSING" NEWS/TALK STATIONS, the ones Gregg doesn't want to count:

New York: WNYC-FM #14 (Number One News/Talk Station in the Market)
Los Angeles: KPCC #20
Chicago: WBEZ #20
San Francisco: KQED-FM #03 (Number One News/Talk Station in the Market)
Dallas-Fort Worth: KERA #21 tie
Houston-Galveston: KUHF #16
Washington, DC: WAMU #04 (Number One News/Talk Station in the Market)
Philadelphia, PA: WHYY-FM #12 tie (Number One News/Talk Station in the Market)
Atlanta: WABE #13
Boston: WBUR #08 (Number One News/Talk Station in the Market)
 
Avid Listener said:
Wrong. Totally, completely wrong. The Marketing Communications Department is responsible for all marketing communications.
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What are you talking about? I stand by what I said about advertising agencies buying time at either NPR or public radio stations. That is not wrong.

FredLeonard said:
NPR, at most, runs brief underwriting credits. It's different at the local level, and each station sells its own "underwriting announcements" and makes its own rules. Some are really pushing the envelope and blurring the distinction between commercial spot announcements and underwriting credits.
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The presentation has nothing to do with the fact that the buy isn't made like a traditional ad buy, and it isn't made by an advertising agency. The presentation has to do with whatever is permissible by law. If you believe they're pushing the envelope, you're welcome to file a complain with the FCC, and they'll investigate, and perhaps levy a fine if appropriate. But public radio isn't so poor that they can't hire lawyers who have read the law, and know what's permissible. I'm more trusting of their interpretation than yours.
 
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DavidEduardo said:
If you look at both the national and local public reports of such stations, you see that much of the funding comes from "grants". Those come directly from a different department of major corporations and not through advertising departments or agencies.
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Corporations ultimately are run by the CEO and board of directors. The division of labor into an organization chart does not mean that each department or division is an entity unto itself, that works without any sort of contact or coordination between the various departments or divisions. If the Marketing department decides that the company needs image work, they communicate that fact to the grants department, who carries out their instructions. It's no different than if the Marketing Department decides widgets will sell better if they're painted blue, so the Purchasing Department buys blue paint and the Manufacturing Department puts it on the products.

TheBigA said:
What are you talking about? I don't know of a single company that has something called a "Marketing Communications Department."
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Then that's just one more thing lacking in your knowledge base.
 
Avid Listener said:
Then that's just one more thing lacking in your knowledge base.
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Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that advertising agencies don't make buys at either NPR or public stations. That's not how it's done.

What your knowledge base ignores is that major corporations, like Ford and IBM have independent foundations that distribute money to non-profits like public radio. Those independent foundations operate outside the traditional business structure that guides the rest of the company. One example is the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, that has no involvement at all with Microsoft. They are a supporter of public broadcasting, and they don't pay much attention to ratings.
 
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DavidEduardo said:
The agency, though, may create, on a fee basis, the copy or copy points for companies that wish to support public broadcasting.
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For example, when you see a Home Depot funder on This Old House, that was produced by the agency. But the agency didn't do the deal.
 
Avid Listener said:
"What are you talking about? I don't know of a single company that has something called a "Marketing Communications Department."

Then that's just one more thing lacking in your knowledge base.
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Could you please name just 10 companies in the Fortune 500 that have a "Marketing Communications Department"

I've called on a bajillion agencies and clients and never heard that one before.
 
Does NPR and its affiliates offer a 15% commission to agencies? My guess is that this would play a significant role in how anxious these agencies are to place ads there.
 
wadio said:
Does NPR and its affiliates offer a 15% commission to agencies? My guess is that this would play a significant role in how anxious these agencies are to place ads there.
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As I said, NPR doesn't do business with agencies.
 
Once again, some people insist on confusing NPR with its member stations. So called "enhanced underwriting announcements" - commercial spot announcements by another name - are not run by NPR. They are run by some/many/most individual member stations. I wouldn't be surprised if the stations want it that way; they don't want NPR competing with them for sales and taking up time on network shows for more spots.

But this really isn't about station revenue and the mechanics of station sales. It's about what is news/talk programming. Right wingers can't stand the idea of "smart talk."
 
FredLeonard said:
I wouldn't be surprised if the stations want it that way; they don't want NPR competing with them for sales and taking up time on network shows for more spots.
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It's a different relationship when you're a local station speaking with a locally based company. There really is no competition. NPR doesn't tread onto the local station turf for funding. Even in DC. And the local stations aren't competing for the same kinds of foundation grants.
 
wadio said:
Does NPR and its affiliates offer a 15% commission to agencies? My guess is that this would play a significant role in how anxious these agencies are to place ads there.
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When an advertising agency has a lucrative client, and earns a healthy commission from placing the client's paid ads on commercial radio, it's simply good business to throw in handling the creative and administrative aspects of their underwriting on non-commercial radio and television as a professional courtesy. I mean, how short-sighted would an agency have to be to refuse to do what amounts doing a minor favor just because they only get commission on the lion's share of the client's business?
 
Just for the record, I've said this before and I'll say it again. I LIKE NPR. I also liked Progressive Talk when it was available in my market. Most of my listening to Talk these days is to WNYC.

But I don't think WNYC and other NPR stations are in the same category as commercial Talk stations. NPR is filled with news shows and long-form interviews. Morning Edition, All Things Considered, The Takeaway, The World and Here & Now are all news shows. Terry Gross does long-form interviews on Fresh Air. Diane Ream takes phone calls only after a long interview. Contrast that to commercial Talk stations, which are mostly about talking to callers. Yes, someone is going to say Rush talks at length to himself and John Bachelor takes no phone calls. But I still think commercial Talk and NPR are two different formats. If AC and Hot AC are different formats, certainly NPR stations and commercial Talk stations are also different formats.

And NPR member stations' success is NOT based on ratings. I'm sure it helps that KQED and WAMU score so well in their cities' ratings. But the whole point of public radio is listener contributions. A program's worth to a station is measured at fundraising time by how many dollars that show pulls in. That's why NPR programs aim so much higher than commercial Talk stations. They're trying to get people who have the money and appreciation to contribute, even if those audiences originally were smaller than were listening to the commercial stations.

It is amusing that NPR stations in many markets are now doing better in the ratings than commercial Talk stations. But I don't see them being the same format. Same for News stations that run talk shows, such as WBZ, KGO and KRLD. They're All-News on weekdays, so I list them on the All-News scoreboard, not the Talk Radio Scoreboard. If Tampa and Orlando were top 10 cities, I also would omit WHPT and WTKS. They're commercial Talk stations, but they're Hot Talk. The hosts are more likely to talk about Kim Kardasian or chat with a comedian playing a local club than discuss the midterm elections or ISIS. I consider Hot Talk a different format, just as Public Radio is a different format.

So that's why I omit public radio stations from the Talk Radio scoreboard.
 
Avid Listener said:
When an advertising agency has a lucrative client, and earns a healthy commission from placing the client's paid ads on commercial radio, it's simply good business to throw in handling the creative and administrative aspects of their underwriting on non-commercial radio and television as a professional courtesy.
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Do you think that agencies do for free the creative for campaigns on media that pay a commission? In fact, a very significant part of media buys are done by buying services, not the agency that creates the campaign.

In many cases, the agency on the account gets better cost efficiencies and has lower costs by giving the buying to a service. They make money on other compensation from the client in the area of services, creative and such.
 
Gregg. said:
And NPR member stations' success is NOT based on ratings. I'm sure it helps that KQED and WAMU score so well in their cities' ratings. But the whole point of public radio is listener contributions. A program's worth to a station is measured at fundraising time by how many dollars that show pulls in. That's why NPR programs aim so much higher than commercial Talk stations. They're trying to get people who have the money and appreciation to contribute, even if those audiences originally were smaller than were listening to the commercial stations.
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I agree with a lot of that. The key thing is they don't care that the talk audience is aging. Older audiences hate commercials, and so non-com radio is a great solution. Older audiences have more expendable income. Older audiences tend to be more sympathetic to charities and calls for donations than younger people. All of these are good things in the non-com world. So as the talk audience ages and falls out of the demographic for commercial radio, it may be in your best interest to include non-com stations, because the downward spiral for AM talk won't be reversing. At some point, you'll be looking at all these talk stations in even lower spots in their markets, and that isn't telling the complete picture of talk radio in those markets.
 
Gregg. said:
Just for the record, I've said this before and I'll say it again. I LIKE NPR. I also liked Progressive Talk when it was available in my market. Most of my listening to Talk these days is to WNYC.

But I don't think WNYC and other NPR stations are in the same category as commercial Talk stations. NPR is filled with news shows and long-form interviews. Morning Edition, All Things Considered, The Takeaway, The World and Here & Now are all news shows. Terry Gross does long-form interviews on Fresh Air. Diane Ream takes phone calls only after a long interview. Contrast that to commercial Talk stations, which are mostly about talking to callers. Yes, someone is going to say Rush talks at length to himself and John Bachelor takes no phone calls. But I still think commercial Talk and NPR are two different formats. If AC and Hot AC are different formats, certainly NPR stations and commercial Talk stations are also different formats.

And NPR member stations' success is NOT based on ratings. I'm sure it helps that KQED and WAMU score so well in their cities' ratings. But the whole point of public radio is listener contributions. A program's worth to a station is measured at fundraising time by how many dollars that show pulls in. That's why NPR programs aim so much higher than commercial Talk stations. They're trying to get people who have the money and appreciation to contribute, even if those audiences originally were smaller than were listening to the commercial stations.

It is amusing that NPR stations in many markets are now doing better in the ratings than commercial Talk stations. But I don't see them being the same format. Same for News stations that run talk shows, such as WBZ, KGO and KRLD. They're All-News on weekdays, so I list them on the All-News scoreboard, not the Talk Radio Scoreboard. If Tampa and Orlando were top 10 cities, I also would omit WHPT and WTKS. They're commercial Talk stations, but they're Hot Talk. The hosts are more likely to talk about Kim Kardasian or chat with a comedian playing a local club than discuss the midterm elections or ISIS. I consider Hot Talk a different format, just as Public Radio is a different format.

So that's why I omit public radio stations from the Talk Radio scoreboard.
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Keep in mind the the definition of "talk radio" or "talk show" is not set in stone. When Rush started in syndication, most talk shows had guests with maybe (or maybe not) some questions from callers. When Rush refused to do a show with guests, many broadcasters did not think this approach would work on existing talk stations. It did work and now it's the default standard and you want to exclude public radio because they follow an approach more like the old default standard. Keep in mind that these "callers" are just there to set up a host-rant, not to explore issues or present alternative views (as guests do and did).

And the format is called "news/talk." Nielsen has a separate category called "talk." Again, definitions change and news/talk stations got this label because many did news magazine programs during morning or afternoon drive times (just like you know who).

And talk radio has not always (and is not always) all politics, all the time. You do include NJ 101.5 in your New York listing (despite the station's slogan of Not New York; Not Philadelphia) and they talk far more about "lifestyle" topics (not necessarily the Kardasians).

It is a little strange that you seem to consider some public radio stations offering mostly news programs but don't list them on the all news scoreboard (along with other stations that are less than ALL news).

Bottom Line: For listeners who are looking for news/talk programming, public radio stations offer an option - programming like that heritage news/talk stations once offered when they took news seriously and had hosts (and guests) with a broader range of viewpoints. Public radio stations is a variation on the format, not a different format.

AC and Hot AC play different music. It's not just a different style of presentation of the same music.
 
OK, let's try this: You print a list of commercial Classical stations, to show the overall viability of the format, as an advertising medium. You'll notice that the list isn't very long BUT it used to be. The vast majority of Classical outlets are non-commercial and have nothing to do with the viability of Classical as a competitive commercial format, which it mostly isn't anymore. In the same way, commercial News/Talk stations could drop off to nearly nothing and non-commercial ones would continue to roll along because they're far less susceptible to demographics.
 
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