Talk Radio Scoreboard for Major Markets: October 2014

Fall weather and an upcoming Midterm Election meant some improved ratings for a few Talk Radio stations. Once again, WSB was at the top of the Atlanta ratings, and #3 in the important 25-54 demographics. That's something few Talk stations, even successful ones, can achieve. KFI Los Angeles, KTRH Houston and WMAL Washington also made the top 10, with WRKO Boston and WGN Chicago just outside. In the next few markets, WAQI (Spanish-language Talk) was #10 in Miami, WJR was #5 in Detroit, KIRO-FM was #3 in Seattle and in Phoenix KFYI was #3 and KTAR-FM was #12.

KNEW San Francisco left the format, switching to Bloomberg Business News. Cumulus' KSFO added Rush, Hannity and Beck, previously on KNEW. But the ratings were about the same.

1. New York ... WABC (Cumulus) #19 ... WOR (iHeart) #22 ... WKXW(FM) (Townsquare) #24
2. Los Angeles ... KFI (iHeart) #8 ... KABC (Cumulus) #35* ... KEIB (iHeart) #37*
3. Chicago ... WGN (Tribune) #12 tie ... WLS (Cumulus) #24 tie
4. San Francisco ... KSFO (Cumulus) #19 tie ... KKSF (iHeart) #27
5. Dallas ... WBAP (Cumulus) #21 tie
6. Houston ... KTRH (iHeart) #7
7. Washington ... WMAL-AM-FM (Cumulus) #7
8. Philadelphia ... WPHT (CBS) #18
9. Atlanta ... WSB/WSBB(FM) (Cox) #1 ... WYAY(FM) (Cumulus) #19
10. Boston ... WRKO (Entercom) #11 tie

* I only include commercial Talk stations that scored at least a one rating, except for heritage Talk outlet KABC Los Angeles and Rush's LA outlet, KEIB.

Not again. More talk spam. Even more useless than the "retro" posts.

* Can't leave Rush out, no matter how bad the ratings are.
** Can't include public radio talk because ... just because. Only right-wing talk allowed.

FredLeonard said:

Not again. More talk spam. Even more useless than the "retro" posts.

* Can't leave Rush out, no matter how bad the ratings are.
** Can't include public radio talk because ... just because. Only right-wing talk allowed.

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Have to agree with you. Comparing ratings between different markets is meaningless, since the competition is different in each market. Perhaps if anyone had the inclination to take the data from prior months (since these posts seem to be a once-a-month occurrence) and compile them, that would be meaningful. Even if this month's post of data was posted as a reply in the previous month's thread, and so on, then we could compare how stations have moved up or down, and might have some real meat to discuss. Having one thread titled "Talk Radio Scoreboard for Major Markets", with a reply post each month to bring them up to date, could lead to some interesting discussions. This series of a new thread every month doesn't lead to more discussions.

If we are to consider 'Public' radio and 'News/Talk' as synonomous formats, why do they have separate discussion areas on this board?

Rather than complain monthly at the service Gregg provides, either of you are welcome to complile whatever data you'd like. A ranking of 'Public' radio might be appreciated in that section. These monthly posts provide current data as to how the format THAT THIS SECTION EXISTS TO DISCUSS is doing for the most current ratings period. It is useful and I appreciate that Gregg does it.

Of note, WABC leads WOR, a reversal of the current trend and validation that the Mets were helping WOR's numbers.

Considering the strength of WSB in one of the fastest growing areas of the country, I think, belies the argument that this is a dead format. Further, the strength of WSB and their coverage of traffic and weather largely explains why there is no all news formatted station in Atlanta.

umfan said:

If we are to consider 'Public' radio and 'News/Talk' as synonomous formats, why do they have separate discussion areas on this board?

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Maybe I'm the only one, but I don't view "public radio" as a format. Public radio is a platform of OTA that in many cases uses the N/T format. When it does, it deserves being discussed in the same breath. But there are obvious circumstances that differ it from other N/T stations.

umfan said:

Considering the strength of WSB in one of the fastest growing areas of the country, I think, belies the argument that this is a dead format. Further, the strength of WSB and their coverage of traffic and weather largely explains why there is no all news formatted station in Atlanta.

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Coupled with their signal and heritage. When you think radio in Atlanta, you think WSB. Anyone who attempts to step into their pool has to deal with that.

Not again. More Fred complaining spam.

You're more than welcome to post your own ratings analysis, Fred. But that would require actual research and work, instead of just complaining.

TheBigA said:

Maybe I'm the only one, but I don't view "public radio" as a format. Public radio is a platform of OTA that in many cases uses the N/T format. When it does, it deserves being discussed in the same breath. But there are obvious circumstances that differ it from other N/T stations.

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Mark this day on your calendars. TheBigA and I are in agreement. Public radio airs programs that fit under multiple formats, but public radio itself is not a format. "Morning Edition" and "All Things Considered" are news/talk, "Piano Jazz" is jazz, etc.

Avid Listener said:

"Morning Edition" and "All Things Considered" are news/talk,

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I wouldn't say they're news/talk using the commercial radio model. Diane Rehm is more of the traditional news/talk. Same with Fresh Air. The only thing similar to Morning Edition in commercial radio that I'm aware of is America In The Morning. Which is a very competitive show, in my opinion. However, it airs at 5AM.

The way I look at it is that this is a list of commercial stations on a given format and how well they and by extension, the entire format are doing. The key word is "commercial" because the end game depends on how well they do with advertisers. Public stations do not sell advertising, per se so there's no reason to include them, anymore than listing college stations among a list of CHR/Rhythmic stations.

First of all, "public radio" is not a format. Public radio is a subset of stations which qualify for CPB grants.

Many public radio stations program news/talk. That is their format. Others program classical, jazz or alternative (all of which have format sections on this website).

For all practical purposes, public radio stations do sell "advertising." Anyone who doesn't realize that, hasn't listened lately. And Nielsen does include those stations in the ratings "books" and station representatives use the information in presentations to corporate sponsors.

Apparently, some here want to restrict "talk" to stations programming right-wing, demagogic, hate-speech talk.

They also seem to consider the presence of right-wing talk (and the absence of progressive talk) some kind of validation of their own political viewpoints and biases, as if Rush et al preaching to an ever-shrinking choir actually means something or changes anything.

And some here are in denial as to how the audience for such programming has diminished in recent years. "At least a one rating" is setting the bar pretty low - considering the shares these stations had a decade or more ago. Rankings of AM blow-torches in the teens and 20s are pretty pathetic given their histories. Also not considered here is the fact that diminished audience skews old and lower socio-economic status since these listings do not include demographic breakdowns.

And some persist in the idea that these topline 6+ share "beauty contest" numbers actually mean something - to advertisers, to programmers or to anyone other than radio broad "enthusiasts."

Nielsen gives away the topline numbers because they have no value. And like Fan, I am not disposed to pay for data which does have meaning and value in order to post it here (and then get sued by Nielsen or BIA/Kelsey for doing so).

semoochie said:

The way I look at it is that this is a list of commercial stations on a given format and how well they and by extension, the entire format are doing. The key word is "commercial" because the end game depends on how well they do with advertisers. Public stations do not sell advertising, per se so there's no reason to include them, anymore than listing college stations among a list of CHR/Rhythmic stations.

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As you point out, commercial stations rely on how well they do with advertisers. But ratings are merely a means to that end, not the end itself. When commercial stations lose listeners (and ratings points) to non-commercial broadcasters, that affects how well they do with advertisers. If Sean Hannity loses listeners to All Things Considered, that's important to any discussion of his ratings.

Ravens said:

Not again. More Fred complaining spam.

You're more than welcome to post your own ratings analysis, Fred. But that would require actual research and work, instead of just complaining.

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Here's something to make the research easier:

September:

Gregg. said:

Several Talk Radio stations saw their ratings improve as the summer ended. In the ten major markets, KFI Los Angeles, KTRH Houston and WMAL Washington all made the top ten, with WSB Atlanta returning once again to #1. WGN Chicago and WRKO Boston came close, finishing at #11.

If you look at the next five markets, Talk stations made the top ten in each. Spanish Talk WAQI Miami is #9, WJR Detroit is tied for #7, KIRO-FM Seattle is tied for #4, KFYI Phoenix is #6 and Spanish Talk WKAQ Puerto Rico is #3. It's the first time WAQI has been in the top ten in Miami in years.

The experiment to put all of iHeart's syndicated Talk hosts on one station in San Francisco is coming to an end. Rush, Beck and Hannity are moving to Cumulus-owned KSFO (I thought Hannity vowed never to be on a Cumulus station?) as KNEW becomes a Bloomberg Business News affiliate.

1. New York...WOR (iHeart) #21 ... WABC (Cumulus) #22 ... WKXW(FM) (Townsquare) #25
2. Los Angeles...KFI (iHeart) #8 ... KEIB (iHeart) #36 tie*... KABC (Cumulus) #36 tie*
3. Chicago...WGN (Tribune) #11 ... WLS (Cumulus) #23
4. San Francisco...KSFO (Cumulus) #19 tie ... KKSF (iHeart) #25 ... KNEW (iHeart) #29
5. Dallas...WBAP (Cumulus) #20 tie
6. Houston...KTRH (iHeart) #9 tie
7. Washington...WMAL-AM-FM (Cumulus) #12 tie
8. Philadelphia...WPHT (CBS) #19
9. Atlanta...WSB/WSBB(FM) (Cox) #1 ... WYAY(FM) (Cumulus) #20
10. Boston...WRKO (Entercom) #11 tie

* I only include commercial Talk stations that scored at least a one rating, except for heritage Talk outlet KABC Los Angeles and Rush's LA and SF outlets, KEIB and KNEW.

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August

Gregg. said:

KFI saw a ratings increase this past month, returning to the top 10 in Los Angeles. KFI, along with WGN Chicago and WSB Atlanta, are the only three large market Talk Radio stations in their city's top 10. Notice in the NYC ratings that WKXW, an FM station based in Trenton, outside the NYC market, has ratings close to New York's two Talk Radio powerhouses, WOR and WABC.

After Labor Day, the 2014 Senate races may get more listeners interested in politics as the summer ends, helping Talk Radio ratings.

1. New York...WOR (Clear Channel) #20 tie ... WABC (Cumulus) #20 tie ... WKXW(FM) (Townsquare) #24
2. Los Angeles...KFI (Clear Channel) #8 tie ... KEIB (Clear Channel) #36 tie*... KABC (Cumulus) #36 tie*
3. Chicago...WGN (Tribune) #8 ... WLS (Cumulus) #22 tie
4. San Francisco...KSFO (Cumulus) #19 tie ... KKSF (Clear Channel) #26 ... KNEW (Clear Channel) #29 tie*
5. Dallas...WBAP (Cumulus) #18
6. Houston...KTRH (Clear Channel) #16
7. Washington...WMAL-AM-FM (Cumulus) #12 tie
8. Philadelphia...WPHT (CBS) #17 tie
9. Atlanta...WSB/WSBB(FM) (Cox) #3 ... WYAY(FM) #18
10. Boston...WRKO (Entercom) #13 tie

* I only include commercial Talk stations that scored at least a one rating, except for heritage Talk outlet KABC Los Angeles and Rush's LA and SF outlets, KEIB and KNEW.

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July

Gregg. said:

Ratings trouble for Talk Radio continues. Warmer weather may hurt some Talk Radio stations, as people on vacation may prefer music to Talk. But only two Talk Radio stations in large markets made their local top ten. WSB Atlanta continues to shine at #1 and WGN Chicago finished in eighth place. But that's it. No KFI Los Angeles or KTRH Houston, stations that we usually saw in the top ten.

This month I add WYAY Atlanta to the Talk Radio list. It had been on the All-News list but Cumulus lost confidence in the All-News format and put Talk shows in all dayparts outside AM and PM Drive.

1. New York...WOR (Clear Channel) #21 ... WABC (Cumulus) #23
2. Los Angeles...KFI (Clear Channel) #12 ... KEIB (Clear Channel) #36 tie*... KABC (Cumulus) #39 tie*
3. Chicago...WGN (Tribune) #8 ... WLS (Cumulus) #24 tie
4. San Francisco...KSFO (Cumulus) #24 tie ... KKSF (Clear Channel) #26 ... KNEW (Clear Channel) #28 tie*
5. Dallas...WBAP (Cumulus) #19 tie
6. Houston...KTRH (Clear Channel) #16
7. Washington...WMAL-AM-FM (Cumulus) #13 tie
8. Philadelphia...WPHT (CBS) #17
9. Atlanta...WSB/WSBB(FM) (Cox) #1 ... WYAY(FM) #18
10. Boston...WRKO (Entercom) #16

* I only include commercial Talk stations that scored at least a one rating, except for heritage Talk outlet KABC and Rush's LA and SF outlets, KEIB and KNEW.

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umfan said:

If we are to consider 'Public' radio and 'News/Talk' as synonomous formats, why do they have separate discussion areas on this board?

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As has been pointed out in several threads, management is working on a project to consolidate the format boards but that takes time and they are also working on other projects. Changes in the entire radio formats forum have been, and continue to be discussed at length in the forum for discussing such changes.

Since we're using Nielsen ratings for this discussion, should we not also use Nielsen format designations? Whether it's via Tom Taylor or RadioOnline.com, I notice that stations programming mostly conservative talk and public talk stations are listed under the same category when ratings are reported: news/talk.

Doing this any other way leads to a somewhat arbitrary definition of what to include and what not to include ... unless the list is described as "talk stations with the exception of public/nonprofit stations."

FredLeonard said:

For all practical purposes, public radio stations do sell "advertising." Anyone who doesn't realize that, hasn't listened lately. And Nielsen does include those stations in the ratings "books" and station representatives use the information in presentations to corporate sponsors.

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The fact is that Arbitron (and now Nielsen) has been counting public radio listeners for at least 30 years. This is not something new. What's new is that those stations are included in the 6+ numbers they give away. But NPR certainly has known how many people listen to its shows for 30 years. However, the word "advertising" needs some definition here. TTBOMK, no advertising agency works with NPR or public radio stations. They're not "buying time" from NPR. There are very different offices within these companies. Marketing and advertising are not always the same thing. Grants from foundations aren't the same thing as product advertising. So there are lots of variables in the words we're throwing around. Just because you hear a company or product name given out on a public radio station doesn't mean it's advertising. And one important difference is that demographic data like age isn't very important in public radio.

I believe the biggest difference between NPR underwriting and commercial advertising is that the former cannot contain a "call to action." IOW, you can say, "NPR programming is made possible by Joe's Restaurant offering a variety of meat and seafood dishes," but you can't say, "Hurry into Joe's Restaurant and save 10% on your favorite meat or seafood meal."

Regarding Gregg's monthly posts, I think they're interesting and completely valid. We all know the shortcomings of 6+, and we know there's an alternate universe over at NPR. No reason to get upset.

wadio said:

I believe the biggest difference between NPR underwriting and commercial advertising is that the former cannot contain a "call to action."

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Which is why advertising agencies aren't involved. Without CTA, they have no purpose.

TheBigA said:

Which is why advertising agencies aren't involved. Without CTA, they have no purpose.

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You have a lot to learn about advertising. Not every individual advertising project has to contain a call to action. Often an advertising campaign will include a mix of elements. Some are to simply create brand awareness, others are to move specific products, others simply increase a company's positive identity with consumers. A well-planned campaign mixes all of the elements in proper proportion. A good agency campaign could include image pieces on NPR, targeted direct mail, print in appropriate journals, POP materials, radio and TV commercials, and any other appropriate messages in various media that the creative folks can think of. If a company wants to "prime the pump" for their direct sales force, underwriting an appropriate show on public radio or television could be an effective tool. And in that situation, the broader demographics of the audience, beyond mere gender and age, play a large part in making the decision.

Avid Listener said:

You have a lot to learn about advertising.

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That may be, but it doesn't change the fact that advertising agencies typically don't pitch non-commercial radio stations.

If a company wants to utilize underwriting or sponsorship, it'll come from a different part of the company than traditional advertising.