The link to the article is posted at the Community Radio forum.
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Shake 108 FM: New Non-Profit, Local Radio Station Launches in Miami
- Thread starter JayR
- Start date
Ai4i
Star Participant
We (the royal plural) will have to set a preset to 107.9 and see what happens.
Click on Service Contour on Google map (60 dBu).
Click on Service Contour on Google map (60 dBu).
Last edited:
A
artfuldodger
Guest
I did listen to the launch, streamed online. The music choices were interesting, and it certainly makes you want to listen more. The you-never-know-what-you'll-hear-next plays well, its a unique way to go, considering they're such a small station and they need to set themselves off from the pack. Read the press, seen the NBC 6 story http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/New-Station-Shakes-Up-Miami-Radio-276406461.html, and I am wishing these guys all the best. They really seem to have a battle plan and got their ducks in a row to make this really work.
Now, on their FB page, they mentioned "interference" from Sunny 107.9. And Sunny's signal does travel far and deep into Dade County. I wonder if Sunny is having any complaints from listeners in Dade about interference from Shake 108? Not wishing bad luck on the Shake crew, not at all.
I mention this because, when Dick Robinson's Legends Radio at 100.3 FM when on the air, and the Calvary Chapel translator at 100.3 (which Clear Channel was using to push 610 WIOD as an "FM station") began interfering with Legends Radio, it was taken off the air. So, I wonder how this will all play out.
Now, on their FB page, they mentioned "interference" from Sunny 107.9. And Sunny's signal does travel far and deep into Dade County. I wonder if Sunny is having any complaints from listeners in Dade about interference from Shake 108? Not wishing bad luck on the Shake crew, not at all.
I mention this because, when Dick Robinson's Legends Radio at 100.3 FM when on the air, and the Calvary Chapel translator at 100.3 (which Clear Channel was using to push 610 WIOD as an "FM station") began interfering with Legends Radio, it was taken off the air. So, I wonder how this will all play out.
The rules are different for translators compared to LPFM's. Both services are secondary to full-power FM's (FPFM), which means that they cannot assert interference FROM an FPFM, and they are responsible for interference TO an FPFM. But here's where it gets strange:
1. Throughout broadcast law, stations have "protected contours". For most it is 60 dBµ signal level. For example, Sunny 107.9 (WEAT-FM) has a 60 dBµ level at Sample Rd. (northern edge of Broward County) but it is already below 60 at Copans. What this means is that if an LPFM, or a new or power-increased FPFM caused any degradation to the reception of WEAT at any point within this coverage area, the new station would be required to remedy such interference. However, if interference were to occur beyond this "protected" area, WEAT would have no valid legal complaint. Essentially the law is saying this is the only area they are licensed to serve, and the FCC will ensure they are able to reach it by not allowing other signals to infringe. Outside this zone any coverage they get is "gravy" or incidental to their purpose.
2. Translators are prohibited from causing interference to any full-power with any level of signal, regardless of who was there first. This is unique in all of broadcast regulation. For example, if one listener with a large roof antenna can pick up a Naples station in Ft. Lauderdale, that person could complain to the FCC about a translator that reduces or prevents such reception, and the translator-operator could be forced to make changes.
In this discussion, the signal of Dick Robinson's WLML is listenable in Boca Raton on a car radio, even though it is well below the 60 dBµ signal level. However, listening in Boca was difficult to nearly impossible with the WIOD translator on 100.3. By law the translator had to stop interfering, either by moving to another frequency, reducing power, or going off the air. However, an LPFM would only have been responsible for interference within WLML's protected contour, which goes to about the southern edge of Boynton Beach.
Since Shake 108 does not interfere with Sunny 107.9 anywhere within its protected contour, there is no legal basis for complaint nor any requirement for anyone to change facilities.
...Sam Brown
1. Throughout broadcast law, stations have "protected contours". For most it is 60 dBµ signal level. For example, Sunny 107.9 (WEAT-FM) has a 60 dBµ level at Sample Rd. (northern edge of Broward County) but it is already below 60 at Copans. What this means is that if an LPFM, or a new or power-increased FPFM caused any degradation to the reception of WEAT at any point within this coverage area, the new station would be required to remedy such interference. However, if interference were to occur beyond this "protected" area, WEAT would have no valid legal complaint. Essentially the law is saying this is the only area they are licensed to serve, and the FCC will ensure they are able to reach it by not allowing other signals to infringe. Outside this zone any coverage they get is "gravy" or incidental to their purpose.
2. Translators are prohibited from causing interference to any full-power with any level of signal, regardless of who was there first. This is unique in all of broadcast regulation. For example, if one listener with a large roof antenna can pick up a Naples station in Ft. Lauderdale, that person could complain to the FCC about a translator that reduces or prevents such reception, and the translator-operator could be forced to make changes.
In this discussion, the signal of Dick Robinson's WLML is listenable in Boca Raton on a car radio, even though it is well below the 60 dBµ signal level. However, listening in Boca was difficult to nearly impossible with the WIOD translator on 100.3. By law the translator had to stop interfering, either by moving to another frequency, reducing power, or going off the air. However, an LPFM would only have been responsible for interference within WLML's protected contour, which goes to about the southern edge of Boynton Beach.
Since Shake 108 does not interfere with Sunny 107.9 anywhere within its protected contour, there is no legal basis for complaint nor any requirement for anyone to change facilities.
...Sam Brown
A
artfuldodger
Guest
Sam. Thanks for the detailed information and clearing that all up about 107.9. Lots of interesting changes on the dial this past month. Exciting stuff.
First Question -- About LPFM and FPFM's, and Can/could Dick Robinson purchase 100.3 Fort Lauderdale from Clear Channel and increase the coverage of WLML into Broward? After what you said about the 107.9s between Shake and Sunny, I'm now lost how that works out now with 100.3.
Another question -- 93.5 WBGF is getting a great response with the rock format. But everyone is mentioning on the Palm/Broward line about the signal going in and out from country (with W228BVC, 93.5 the Bull) to rock with WBGF.
I've travel quite a bit for work, and was able to listen over the past couple weeks to the 93.5 frequency, checking out the Bull and Evolution; both are nicely done by the way. So right now, with WBGF The Bar, in the mix . . . when I was in mid-Palm County, it came in nice and clear as I rolled down the pike, and I had them until the county line at Broward / Palm. When I traveled through Boca, I got a nice, strong signal from WBGF.
Then depending on which direction I turned, it started going in and out for me as well right at the county line. I continued south, and kept on listening to The Bull, until it then faded out around the Golden Glades interchange on the Dade/Broward line. At that point, it started fading in and out with Clear Channel's other translator (W228BY, 93.5 Evolution).
I studied up the coverage maps on Radio Locator, so I got a good handle on all three 93.5s local, distant, and fringe coverage . . . and what you said about protected contours , thought those maps aren't as detailed as an engineering map, which I have no access to.
It seems to me, if WBGF 93.5s owners were able to pick up the other two 93.5s from Clear Channel, they could have coverage from northern Palm, Belle Glade all the way down into southern Dade county to Hialeah.
My question is, can JVC buy the two translators? Could/would Clear Channel sell them. Is a sale like that even permitted by the FCC? If it is allowed, wow . . . because you would be able to travel through the tri-county from north Palm into South Dade and never loose the station (the Bar, 93.5, that is).
I understand what you said about 107.9 . . . so, the FCC wouldn't shut down 93.5 the Bull, and WBGF would have no valid legal complaint against W228BVC for interference . . . if I am reading your points #1 and #2 correctly. Looking forward to your insights, and thanks for taking the time on your last explanation.
First Question -- About LPFM and FPFM's, and Can/could Dick Robinson purchase 100.3 Fort Lauderdale from Clear Channel and increase the coverage of WLML into Broward? After what you said about the 107.9s between Shake and Sunny, I'm now lost how that works out now with 100.3.
Another question -- 93.5 WBGF is getting a great response with the rock format. But everyone is mentioning on the Palm/Broward line about the signal going in and out from country (with W228BVC, 93.5 the Bull) to rock with WBGF.
I've travel quite a bit for work, and was able to listen over the past couple weeks to the 93.5 frequency, checking out the Bull and Evolution; both are nicely done by the way. So right now, with WBGF The Bar, in the mix . . . when I was in mid-Palm County, it came in nice and clear as I rolled down the pike, and I had them until the county line at Broward / Palm. When I traveled through Boca, I got a nice, strong signal from WBGF.
Then depending on which direction I turned, it started going in and out for me as well right at the county line. I continued south, and kept on listening to The Bull, until it then faded out around the Golden Glades interchange on the Dade/Broward line. At that point, it started fading in and out with Clear Channel's other translator (W228BY, 93.5 Evolution).
I studied up the coverage maps on Radio Locator, so I got a good handle on all three 93.5s local, distant, and fringe coverage . . . and what you said about protected contours , thought those maps aren't as detailed as an engineering map, which I have no access to.
It seems to me, if WBGF 93.5s owners were able to pick up the other two 93.5s from Clear Channel, they could have coverage from northern Palm, Belle Glade all the way down into southern Dade county to Hialeah.
My question is, can JVC buy the two translators? Could/would Clear Channel sell them. Is a sale like that even permitted by the FCC? If it is allowed, wow . . . because you would be able to travel through the tri-county from north Palm into South Dade and never loose the station (the Bar, 93.5, that is).
I understand what you said about 107.9 . . . so, the FCC wouldn't shut down 93.5 the Bull, and WBGF would have no valid legal complaint against W228BVC for interference . . . if I am reading your points #1 and #2 correctly. Looking forward to your insights, and thanks for taking the time on your last explanation.
Last edited:
Ai4i
Star Participant
LPFMs have been given the short end of the tower so much, it is nice to know that in at least one way, they are treated with more respect than xlators.
I would add 1mv/m, 316µv/m, and 100µv/m
radio-locator.com said:
I would add 1mv/m, 316µv/m, and 100µv/m
Last edited:
Thak you ai4i -- you caught an error which I missed.
It is the inner most contour that is 60 dBµ, not the middle on Radio-Locator.
Recnet.com has some maps which show both the 70 dBµ and the 60 (or whatever the protected contour is).
For non-engineers -- these mv/m numbers are simply a different way of expressing signal level. Some technical folks tend to think of signal in mv/m and some in dBµ, it is much like perceiving temperature in Fahrenheit or Celsius -- the numbers are different but the meanings the same.
I like Radio-Locators choices of contours, because they correspond nicely to real-world conditions in most cases:
60 generally will give strong local reception.
50 is about the minimum at which most car radio's "scan" function tuning will stop on the station. In the absence of interference, it will generally be quite listenable in a car or on a good stereo with an outdoor antenna, but it may have occasional drop-outs and will almost certainly sometimes become unavailable due to atmospheric conditions which enhance reception from distant stations, allowing them to interfere.
40 is about the minimum at which the signal is receivable at all in a car (or good stereo with outdoor antenna), with no interference. You would have to manually tune it, probably will not get stereo or perfect sound. It will be right on the edge of fading to static / white noise oblivion.
...Sam Brown
It is the inner most contour that is 60 dBµ, not the middle on Radio-Locator.
Recnet.com has some maps which show both the 70 dBµ and the 60 (or whatever the protected contour is).
For non-engineers -- these mv/m numbers are simply a different way of expressing signal level. Some technical folks tend to think of signal in mv/m and some in dBµ, it is much like perceiving temperature in Fahrenheit or Celsius -- the numbers are different but the meanings the same.
I like Radio-Locators choices of contours, because they correspond nicely to real-world conditions in most cases:
60 generally will give strong local reception.
50 is about the minimum at which most car radio's "scan" function tuning will stop on the station. In the absence of interference, it will generally be quite listenable in a car or on a good stereo with an outdoor antenna, but it may have occasional drop-outs and will almost certainly sometimes become unavailable due to atmospheric conditions which enhance reception from distant stations, allowing them to interfere.
40 is about the minimum at which the signal is receivable at all in a car (or good stereo with outdoor antenna), with no interference. You would have to manually tune it, probably will not get stereo or perfect sound. It will be right on the edge of fading to static / white noise oblivion.
...Sam Brown
That may be true for in-car listening, but keep in mind that over 60% of all listening is in homes and workplace locations. To give adequate penetration of anything with walls, the practical limit is about 65 dbu.
A number of years ago, I did a review of millions of diary entries that specified home or work listening and plotted them against the signal contours of the principal FMs in about 15 markets. 80% of stationary listening happened inside the 70 dbu contour, and 95% was inside the 65 dbu curves. There were a few exceptions based on hard-to-find formats like classical or jazz and for NPR where the signals were poor or coming from other markets. Miami was one of the markets studied, and it conformed with the averages.
While we have PPM now, the laws of physics have not changed, so really it is appropriate to look at the 65 dbu for non-mobile listening and perhaps the 54 dbu for car listening (although many of the shark fins require 60 dbu to latch on to a good signal now).
G
Groove1670
Guest
Coverage maps are just a guide. There are so many factors. terrain, power, proper antenna design and mounting, height, co-channel issues, etc.
For example, our antenna is actually higher than the terrain, so we get a great signal outside our 60db (25 miles on a boom box inside a Gym - we did a career day.), and we don't have a co-channel breathing down us. We have many clients, and do events outside the 60db with no issues, however we have a lot of in car listening.
Now the downside: The South is known for severe atmospheric "ducting" can tear up a signal even in your 70db contour at certain parts of the year. It kills us at times, and large stations too. I have heard it wipe out some (C1) 100KW stations in the area.
With Miami being such a crowded market, there are gonna be signal issues for translators, and LPFM's.
For example, our antenna is actually higher than the terrain, so we get a great signal outside our 60db (25 miles on a boom box inside a Gym - we did a career day.), and we don't have a co-channel breathing down us. We have many clients, and do events outside the 60db with no issues, however we have a lot of in car listening.
Now the downside: The South is known for severe atmospheric "ducting" can tear up a signal even in your 70db contour at certain parts of the year. It kills us at times, and large stations too. I have heard it wipe out some (C1) 100KW stations in the area.
With Miami being such a crowded market, there are gonna be signal issues for translators, and LPFM's.
Last edited by a moderator:
But actual listening is conclusive. 95% of FM "fixed location" listening is within the 65 dbu contour. 80% is in the 70 dbu, in fact.
Of course there are exceptions, as some receivers are better than others and some walls and roofs are thicker than others. But when you look at millions of incidents of listening across 10 of the top 20 markets and a control sample of smaller ones, you see that very little is gained outside those contours... the stations can be heard, but they are not listened to.
Too many prospective owners "drive the signal" and think they have a powerhouse station when, in fact, at the locations where most listening is done, they are not receivable on the average radio. I think this is what JV is going to find with its "we can serve the Palm Beaches from Belle Glade" acquisitions. Again, you can hear it but nobody will listen.
Ai4i
Star Participant
One station which transmits from one end of the Miami market is like an old AM daytimer at the opposite end. They are pretty listenable on a car radio with a whip antenna in the day, though under 50dbµ, but they get destroyed by a station waaay outside the market at night.
I am referring to these two stations.
Last edited:
G
Groove1670
Guest
As I said, we are the exception to the rule. Many of our clients are just outside our 60db, but we also offer a under served format. With so many choices in larger markets, weak signals would be a moot point.
U
Unregistered
Guest
I don't think this is what the FCC had in mind; someone with no radio savy hooking up an MP3 player on shuffle. I applaud the gentlemen for acquiring the license and having a vision, but I don't see how this contributes to the market. The news reports about the station left me unimpressed. Recording commerical spots over a cellphone, for air? That's unacceptable. But, Shake will adhere to FCC guidelines, and it keeps a less desirable pirate off the air. Better that it being used as a translator relaying a signal that has no signal problems in the first place.
I don't know. LPFM was just a bad idea from the get go. All these translators are just making a mess of things. Radio in general is a mess, and beyond fixing.
I don't know. LPFM was just a bad idea from the get go. All these translators are just making a mess of things. Radio in general is a mess, and beyond fixing.
U
Unregistered
Guest
This station is a joke, really. Its website is off line more than its online, the station is off air more than its on air. And have you seen their FB page? With profanity laced posts about "F the haters," and that's a mild one compared to most of them. And recording spots into a cell phone for air? It all points to the whole LPFM deal being a bad idea, give guys like the Shake crew a license.
Now, you want to hear a real LPFM, a professional one. Tune into WJTW in Jupiter at 100.3. Professional all the way. Real, physical studios, real radio equipment, a real staff. A decent website, and FB, without the profanity.
Sorry, a kid with a home computer in the corner of the room playing MP3 off the hard drive of just any song he wants, isn't radio. Its garbage. I don't see how this serves the public, or the broadcasting community as a whole. It barely one step above a pirate. Hopefully the FCC will take better care in handing out LPFM licenses, because this Shake thing was a bad idea.
Now, you want to hear a real LPFM, a professional one. Tune into WJTW in Jupiter at 100.3. Professional all the way. Real, physical studios, real radio equipment, a real staff. A decent website, and FB, without the profanity.
Sorry, a kid with a home computer in the corner of the room playing MP3 off the hard drive of just any song he wants, isn't radio. Its garbage. I don't see how this serves the public, or the broadcasting community as a whole. It barely one step above a pirate. Hopefully the FCC will take better care in handing out LPFM licenses, because this Shake thing was a bad idea.
U
Unknowable
Guest
It's just a startup. I'm sure it will get better over time. Not everyone likes everything - that's why there are other stations.
I've liked interesting things like Shake FM - I do something similar on my part 15 here in TX.
I've liked interesting things like Shake FM - I do something similar on my part 15 here in TX.
It's just a startup. I'm sure it will get better over time. Not everyone likes everything - that's why there are other stations.
I've liked interesting things like Shake FM - I do something similar on my part 15 here in TX.
What is interesting about this station is that 80% of the population in its 65 dbu contour is Hispanic, and because most of the signal is over Little Havana, it reaches the most traditional of the Cuban population.
In that area, their format is about as good a fit as a hockey team in Paraguay.
Ai4i
Star Participant
Would an application to move the station to another part of Dade County be well received by the commission? What would you do with it? I was thinking Miami Beach, Downtown, Midtown, the University of Miami. The problem with very traditional Cuban music might be one of demographics, same as with English language stations, something along the lines of Cuba's Radio Enciclopedia.
This owner doesn't appear to be too concerned about his location, or who his audience is. Just that he gets a chance to play what he wants.
Had this station been centered closer to the University, just a few miles southwest, it might have been popular with the students.
- Status