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GM: analog-digital switching a driver ‘nuisance.’

The truth will slowly come out I guess, but we all KNEW that it was nothing to do with faulty antenna cords now didn't we?

From Inside Radio:

GM: analog-digital switching a driver ‘nuisance.’

General Motors is shedding more light on a decision to pull back on the use of HD Radio technology. The automaker says installation of new web-ready technology into the connected car isn’t the problem. Instead, it’s the quality of the audio when the receivers switch back and forth from digital and analog signals as a car moves through a city.

That's all I got, I'm not a subscriber.
 
The truth will slowly come out I guess, but we all KNEW that it was nothing to do with faulty antenna cords now didn't we?

From Inside Radio:

GM: analog-digital switching a driver ‘nuisance.’

General Motors is shedding more light on a decision to pull back on the use of HD Radio technology. The automaker says installation of new web-ready technology into the connected car isn’t the problem. Instead, it’s the quality of the audio when the receivers switch back and forth from digital and analog signals as a car moves through a city.

That's all I got, I'm not a subscriber.

Yes - I agree it is a nuisance. One station in town has a noticeable difference in audio level and equalization when the switch occurs between analog and HD-1. Unfortunately, they are on the upper part of the band and subject to IF jamming from other cars tuned to a station 10.4 to 11 MHz lower in frequency. They are 106.9 and the interfering station is another highly rated station on 96.5 - 10.4 MHz lower. Both run HD so their sidebands overlap on the + mixing product. Even if the other car doesn't have an HD radio.
 
Gee, I seem to recall being one of the many to predict well over a decade ago that that was going to happen... but, y'know, what would we know? We're just message board whackjobs.
 
Any form of transmission can expect problems in a moving car. I live near some cell towers, and I typically lose calls when I drive by them. That's a nuisance. FM fence-posting is a nuisance. AM interference is a nuisance. Lots of problems.
 
Any form of transmission can expect problems in a moving car. I live near some cell towers, and I typically lose calls when I drive by them. That's a nuisance. FM fence-posting is a nuisance. AM interference is a nuisance. Lots of problems.

Yes but, picket fencing is much less common that HD drop outs. Getting a LOT of HD drop outs is pretty much to be expected with HD especially in a moving car. AM works well in a car also typically only dropping out under a bridge., at night you can listen to an AM station for hundreds of miles and usually with minimum inteference and drop outs, FM is uaully good for 40-50 miles with no drop outs, HD you can get drop outs within several miles. HD is by far the most susceptible to drop outs and interference which causes the drop outs.
 
Any form of transmission can expect problems in a moving car. I live near some cell towers, and I typically lose calls when I drive by them. That's a nuisance. FM fence-posting is a nuisance. AM interference is a nuisance. Lots of problems.

yes, but the FM IF jamming problem was not even considered when iBiquity decided it was a good idea to place the sidebands on adjacent FM channels, instead of eliminating RDS, SCA, and other services and putting the sideband in channel. The IF problem was well known by the FCC, which established spacing rules for stations 10.6 and 10.8 MHz apart. Those spacings should have been extended to 10.4 and 11 MHz apart because HD sidebands are on adjacent frequencies. The only problem is - that would have forced massive re-allocation of frequencies and perhaps even the elimination of some stations in each major metro area. STUPID mistake that neither iBiquity nor the FCC spotted before deploying the system. Bad engineering is never erased by good marketing. You need good engineering right from the start. The jamming is real, and completely the fault of the engineers who should have thought through all the implications of putting sidebands on adjacent channels. They did not, now there are dropouts because of it even on strong local stations. Those dropouts leading directly to GM's decision. The dropouts being a lot worse if the listener is tuned to HD-2 and up, because they go dead silent which is much more irritating than just the transition. We needed a system immune to dropouts, and one that would lock back onto the signal in a fraction of a second, not 5 to 10 seconds. How you ask? That is not my problem, it is iBiquity's problem. They need to fix it, not ignore it.
 
Yes but, picket fencing is much less common that HD drop outs. Getting a LOT of HD drop outs is pretty much to be expected with HD especially in a moving car. AM works well in a car also typically only dropping out under a bridge., at night you can listen to an AM station for hundreds of miles and usually with minimum inteference and drop outs, FM is uaully good for 40-50 miles with no drop outs, HD you can get drop outs within several miles. HD is by far the most susceptible to drop outs and interference which causes the drop outs.

Of course no blame can be laid on GM and their tiny little shark fin antennas, which is basically giving a big "F-U" to broadcast radio regardless of its transmission method.

And if we're going to be honest about AM, it's a much more dire situation than you describe for most Americans. My position is in no way representative of the whole country, but AM is all but impossible for me. At home, it's electronics interference from all the doodads: computers, cell phones, home alarm, satellite DVRs, laptops and tablets, etc. Summer reception is a pain because of the daily thunderstorms that plague the coastal regions. Walking through my neighborhood is much better, as our power lines are underground, but as soon as you leave the community and pull out onto the main highway, the high tension lines fight it out. (I also live across the highway from an AM station running 2.5 kW during the day, which desenses all radios, but I don't count that.)

Nights are great for skywave, as long as you love Fidel Castro because Cuba and Mexico dominate the dial at night. WLS? Never hear it. CKLW? Just a dream. WBBM? Rare as snow in Florida. But Radio Reloj on twenty frequencies? That I can do. Tick. Tick. Tick. :)

Contrast that to FM, where most of our stations reach 70+ miles from the transmitter and HD — when sitting still — is good for 40, which is big enough to reach the entire markets, despite how spread out everything is. And the stations running higher power are dropout free for those 40+ miles.

To be fair, the one commercial station running high HD power also has night/day processing differences between analog and digital. The analog is "competitive", the digital sounds like someone turned the treble up to 11 but with no processing beyond basic limiting. And then there's the issue I have with cascading codecs, which HD greatly exacerbates. You got your songs on hard drive, encoded in low bitrate mp3, shoved through a lossy digital STL, decoded then re-encoded in the even worse quality HD codec and it sounds like a dog's dinner at the listener's radio.
 
And if you listen to a sub-channel - and sub-channels are the only reason to buy an HD receiver - you switch from digital to nothing.
 
Of course no blame can be laid on GM and their tiny little shark fin antennas, which is basically giving a big "F-U" to broadcast radio regardless of its transmission method..............

God, how I wish this board had a "Like" button.
Put a decent antenna (my Subaru has a web of copper strip on a rear side window, at least) on a car, and give us a chance to compete.
 
yes, but the FM IF jamming problem was not even considered when iBiquity decided it was a good idea to place the sidebands on adjacent FM channels, instead of eliminating RDS, SCA, and other services and putting the sideband in channel. The IF problem was well known by the FCC, which established spacing rules for stations 10.6 and 10.8 MHz apart. Those spacings should have been extended to 10.4 and 11 MHz apart because HD sidebands are on adjacent frequencies. The only problem is - that would have forced massive re-allocation of frequencies and perhaps even the elimination of some stations in each major metro area. STUPID mistake that neither iBiquity nor the FCC spotted before deploying the system. Bad engineering is never erased by good marketing. You need good engineering right from the start. The jamming is real, and completely the fault of the engineers who should have thought through all the implications of putting sidebands on adjacent channels. They did not, now there are dropouts because of it even on strong local stations. Those dropouts leading directly to GM's decision. The dropouts being a lot worse if the listener is tuned to HD-2 and up, because they go dead silent which is much more irritating than just the transition. We needed a system immune to dropouts, and one that would lock back onto the signal in a fraction of a second, not 5 to 10 seconds. How you ask? That is not my problem, it is iBiquity's problem. They need to fix it, not ignore it.

Going from analog to digital should be seamless on the HD1 but it's not. As for the big "Big F-U", they're between a rock and a hard place. No one (including myself) wants a car with a big antenna (unless it's a truck). :)
 
Going from analog to digital should be seamless on the HD1 but it's not. As for the big "Big F-U", they're between a rock and a hard place. No one (including myself) wants a car with a big antenna (unless it's a truck). :)

I hate to say it - but stations need to process the audio the same on analog and HD-1. There is a very noticeable change in audio level from one station in town. Yes - it would be nice to have HD-1 better quality than analog, but it is annoying to have it change all the time.

As for the antenna - I don't think people cared that there were antennas on cars. But I sure care about it in rentals - one of my very frequent destination is Orlando, and it is annoying to not have adequate antennas on the rent car - since the stations I want to get are weak.
 
I hate to say it - but stations need to process the audio the same on analog and HD-1. There is a very noticeable change in audio level from one station in town. Yes - it would be nice to have HD-1 better quality than analog, but it is annoying to have it change all the time.

As for the antenna - I don't think people cared that there were antennas on cars. But I sure care about it in rentals - one of my very frequent destination is Orlando, and it is annoying to not have adequate antennas on the rent car - since the stations I want to get are weak.

Excellent point Bruce. I'd be thrilled if my local stations had the time sync between analog and digital figured out. So many don't and it makes stations un-listenable when anywhere in the fringe.
 
It sure is a nuisance. Local Houston KHPT has a different level on analog and HD. It was quite annoying switching back and forth in hilly terrain.
 
It sure is a nuisance. Local Houston KHPT has a different level on analog and HD. It was quite annoying switching back and forth in hilly terrain.

Some of the home tuners have a "Force Analog" function that you can switch to. Sure would be nice if the "mobile" receivers had some way that they would just give up after a few fall-backs to analog, leave it in analog and just monitor for a while. If the HD came back solid for a couple of minutes, THEN it could go back to digital mode.
Some stuff just ain't user friendly....
 
Some of the home tuners have a "Force Analog" function that you can switch to. Sure would be nice if the "mobile" receivers had some way that they would just give up after a few fall-backs to analog, leave it in analog and just monitor for a while. If the HD came back solid for a couple of minutes, THEN it could go back to digital mode.
Some stuff just ain't user friendly....

The software to do this would be really simple. I added a similar function to Naval submarine beacon locators in the late 80's - they had an 8 second and a 30 second beacon, I had to write code to detect both - even if there was a dropout. I only had 24 bytes of code space available - and the new code fit easily. Now - in this world of lazy "C" coders and forced "top down" code writing, it would be a whole lot harder. But it could be done - just come up with intelligent scenarios like yours and let a bunch of 20 something C geeks at it. See who could do it in under a megabyte and less than a month.
 
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