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Fox Gets A Station in The Bay Area

OldChicago

Frequent Participant
FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

HMMMMM......
I hear that FOX wants a TV station in the SF market. Since KRON has just been sold that rules that one out. I do not think KTVU will sell out. So...what station in the area do you think they will get?

Old Chicago
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

OldChicago said:
HMMMMM......
I hear that FOX wants a TV station in the SF market. Since KRON has just been sold that rules that one out. I do not think KTVU will sell out. So...what station in the area do you think they will get?

Old Chicago

First, a station just having been sold rules nothing out. Broadcasters can flip properties just like flipping a house if the deal is compelling.

I'd expect FOX to try to make it worth Cox's while to sell KTVU. Much less disruption of viewing habits, which can come back to bite you. Failing that, they probably try to work a deal for KRON.

After that, though, it gets tricky. ABC, CBS and NBC aren't going to sell FOX their O&Os, and anything other than 2 or 4 would call into question what they gained from abandoning a strong affiliate like KTVU for ownership of....what? 20? 36? 44?

If I were Cox and could get the right deal, I'd sell. If I refused and FOX bought KRON, running KTVU as a pure indie (with a recently tarnished news reputation) wouldn't be all that appealing.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

michael hagerty said:
OldChicago said:
HMMMMM......
I hear that FOX wants a TV station in the SF market. Since KRON has just been sold that rules that one out. I do not think KTVU will sell out. So...what station in the area do you think they will get?

Old Chicago

First, a station just having been sold rules nothing out. Broadcasters can flip properties just like flipping a house if the deal is compelling.

I'd expect FOX to try to make it worth Cox's while to sell KTVU. Much less disruption of viewing habits, which can come back to bite you. Failing that, they probably try to work a deal for KRON.

After that, though, it gets tricky. ABC, CBS and NBC aren't going to sell FOX their O&Os, and anything other than 2 or 4 would call into question what they gained from abandoning a strong affiliate like KTVU for ownership of....what? 20? 36? 44?

If I were Cox and could get the right deal, I'd sell. If I refused and FOX bought KRON, running KTVU as a pure indie (with a recently tarnished news reputation) wouldn't be all that appealing.

Well said. If Fox really plans to buy a station in the Bay Area, KTVU would be fool to not sell, specially if KRON is in play as a possible pick up.

Does dial position mean anything in the day of digital TV since KTVU is no longer "channel 2"?



I also agree there would be nothing to gain but snatching up 20, 36, 44, etc...
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

stewie said:
Does dial position mean anything in the day of digital TV since KTVU is no longer "channel 2"?

Yes it does matter.

What Bay Area cable provider doesn't put KTVU on Channel 2? Their PSIP ID (which is the only thing that counts to viewers) is also Channel 2 (OK, it's really 2.1) regardless of their RF channel number. DirecTV and Dish also put it on Channel 2. It is the physical frequency that is meaningless now.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

KeithE4 said:
stewie said:
Does dial position mean anything in the day of digital TV since KTVU is no longer "channel 2"?

Yes it does matter.

What Bay Area cable provider doesn't put KTVU on Channel 2? Their PSIP ID (which is the only thing that counts to viewers) is also Channel 2 (OK, it's really 2.1) regardless of their RF channel number. DirecTV and Dish also put it on Channel 2. It is the physical frequency that is meaningless now.

I assume you can't just create a PSIP ID out of thin air and call yourself Channel 12 or Channel 3. Honest questions, just don't know enough about how TV works now since the digital cut over.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

stewie said:
KeithE4 said:
stewie said:
Does dial position mean anything in the day of digital TV since KTVU is no longer "channel 2"?

Yes it does matter.

What Bay Area cable provider doesn't put KTVU on Channel 2? Their PSIP ID (which is the only thing that counts to viewers) is also Channel 2 (OK, it's really 2.1) regardless of their RF channel number. DirecTV and Dish also put it on Channel 2. It is the physical frequency that is meaningless now.

I assume you can't just create a PSIP ID out of thin air and call yourself Channel 12 or Channel 3. Honest questions, just don't know enough about how TV works now since the digital cut over.

The FCC assigns PSIP numbers as well as RF assignments. They're always based on the original analog channel number.

There's nothing preventing a station from rejecting the analog number and using the digital RF channel as its PSIP instead. WOAY-TV in West Virginia decided to abandon its long-standing use of Channel 4 and went with a PSIP of 50.x, based on its RF channel. I think a station in Texas did the same thing several years ago.

But I think KTVU would be insane to change from 2.x to 44.x (its RF channel). In fact, I don't think it can since KBCW uses 44.x (it transmits on RF channel 45).
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

KeithE4 said:
stewie said:
KeithE4 said:
stewie said:
Does dial position mean anything in the day of digital TV since KTVU is no longer "channel 2"?

Yes it does matter.

What Bay Area cable provider doesn't put KTVU on Channel 2? Their PSIP ID (which is the only thing that counts to viewers) is also Channel 2 (OK, it's really 2.1) regardless of their RF channel number. DirecTV and Dish also put it on Channel 2. It is the physical frequency that is meaningless now.

I assume you can't just create a PSIP ID out of thin air and call yourself Channel 12 or Channel 3. Honest questions, just don't know enough about how TV works now since the digital cut over.

The FCC assigns PSIP numbers as well as RF assignments. They're always based on the original analog channel number.

There's nothing preventing a station from rejecting the analog number and using the digital RF channel as its PSIP instead. WOAY-TV in West Virginia decided to abandon its long-standing use of Channel 4 and went with a PSIP of 50.x, based on its RF channel. I think a station in Texas did the same thing several years ago.

But I think KTVU would be insane to change from 2.x to 44.x (its RF channel). In fact, I don't think it can since KBCW uses 44.x (it transmits on RF channel 45).

Definitely agree with you about KTVU. I was more curious if the FCC could/would assign a PSIP ID to a station that never had a analog signal on it.

For example: Let's pretend Fox purchased Channel 44. Could they apply to have a PSIP ID of Channel 12 and then brand themselves as Fox 12?
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

stewie said:
Definitely agree with you about KTVU. I was more curious if the FCC could/would assign a PSIP ID to a station that never had a analog signal on it.

The PSIP for a station that had never had an analog channel is the same as the RF channel, unless that PSIP is already being used. If that's the case, then the PSIP becomes the RF channel of the other station. At least I think that's how it works.

For example: Let's pretend Fox purchased Channel 44. Could they apply to have a PSIP ID of Channel 12 and then brand themselves as Fox 12?

I take it you mean KBCW. The answer would be "no." If they don't use 44.x then they'd have to use 45.x based on their RF channel. No reason to change it.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

KeithE4 said:
There's nothing preventing a station from rejecting the analog number and using the digital RF channel as its PSIP instead. WOAY-TV in West Virginia decided to abandon its long-standing use of Channel 4 and went with a PSIP of 50.x, based on its RF channel. I think a station in Texas did the same thing several years ago.

Actually, there is a rule preventing what you're describing from happening legally. The FCC's rules incorporate an entire ATSC standard that governs how digital TV is transmitted, and that standard (I want to say it's A/68, but I could be wrong) defines PSIP and the use of "major channel numbers."

In a nutshell: unless otherwise explicitly allowed to do so, a US full-power TV station must use its former analog channel number as its "major channel number" for its DTV signal. It may not arbitrarily switch to using its digital RF channel, or to another arbitrary major channel number.

In the case of KTVU, it cannot use "44" as its major channel number because KBCW must use 44. KBCW cannot use 45 because that channel would be reserved for a future user of RF channel 44 (though in this case that's moot, since KTVU is currently on 44). Without a clear standard that says "44" goes to KBCW and not to KTVU, there would be all sorts of conflicts the FCC would be loath to referee. KRON can't be "38" because of KCNS; KEMO in Santa Rosa can't be "32" because of KMTP; KTEH - er, KQEH - can't be "50" because of KEMO, and so on.

There are a handful of exceptions: two stations that are commonly owned can share a major channel number across multiple RF streams. If CBS wanted to, it could use "5.x" on KBCW as well as on KPIX, just as Cox could use "2.x" on KICU as well as KTVU. This is actually done in a few markets, but it can cause real-world problems with some receivers.

While it's not codified in the ATSC standard, stations whose analog channels are now out of core (above 51) are apparently nformally allowed to use their new RF channels as their major channel numbers if it won't cause any conflicts. WRLM in Canton, Ohio was analog channel 67 but is on RF 47 now, and it uses 47.x. WOAY appears to fall under this informal exception, though I suspect without the FCC's explicit blessing. (If someone were to get a new station on the air in Oak Hill on RF 4, the standard says it should use 50.x as its major channel, which would conflict with WOAY; the likelihood of this actually happening is nil.)

There's another more practical reason why stations shouldn't want to use their current RF channels as part of their branding: many, if not most, of those assignments will change in the next few years as the FCC again repacks the TV spectrum and pulls additional channels out of the core. Just because KTVU is on RF 44 now doesn't mean it will still be there in a few years - and for some Bay Area viewers, it already isn't on 44 anyway, since KTVU is one of several stations with "digital replacement translators" in the South Bay, where some viewers get it via RF 48. But they, like everyone else, get to continue to know KTVU as "channel 2."

The rules are a little more lax in the low-power rule. KAXT-CD in the South Bay is on RF 42, and would normally be expected to use "42.x" as its major channel, but it can't do that due to the potential conflict with KTNC from Concord. So it uses "1.x" as its major channel under special FCC dispensation.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

Scott Fybush said:
Actually, there is a rule preventing what you're describing from happening legally. The FCC's rules incorporate an entire ATSC standard that governs how digital TV is transmitted, and that standard (I want to say it's A/68, but I could be wrong) defines PSIP and the use of "major channel numbers."

In a nutshell: unless otherwise explicitly allowed to do so, a US full-power TV station must use its former analog channel number as its "major channel number" for its DTV signal. It may not arbitrarily switch to using its digital RF channel, or to another arbitrary major channel number.

Thanks for the clarification, Scott. I'd always thought that it could be one or the other, so long as there was no conflict with another existing station.

The rules are a little more lax in the low-power rule. KAXT-CD in the South Bay is on RF 42, and would normally be expected to use "42.x" as its major channel, but it can't do that due to the potential conflict with KTNC from Concord. So it uses "1.x" as its major channel under special FCC dispensation.

IIRC, the Weigel stations in Chicago and Milwaukee (WCIU/26 and WDJT/58) tried to use 1.x early-on and were shot down by the FCC. I thought 0.x, 1.x, and 37.x were absolute no-nos. Apparently the FCC has been known to make exceptions.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

There are a few exceptions; there are provisions, for instance, for coordinated national use of 70.x through 99.x. (Tribune, if memory serves, secured FCC permission to use 75.x on a nationwide basis, though they've not actually done so.)

There's no reason, at least in theory, why 37.x shouldn't be usable that way as well. It's not as though it would involve the forbidden use of the actual RF channel 37 (608-614 MHz), which is protected for radioastronomy.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

KeithE4 said:
Scott Fybush said:
Actually, there is a rule preventing what you're describing from happening legally. The FCC's rules incorporate an entire ATSC standard that governs how digital TV is transmitted, and that standard (I want to say it's A/68, but I could be wrong) defines PSIP and the use of "major channel numbers."

In a nutshell: unless otherwise explicitly allowed to do so, a US full-power TV station must use its former analog channel number as its "major channel number" for its DTV signal. It may not arbitrarily switch to using its digital RF channel, or to another arbitrary major channel number.

Thanks for the clarification, Scott. I'd always thought that it could be one or the other, so long as there was no conflict with another existing station.

The rules are a little more lax in the low-power rule. KAXT-CD in the South Bay is on RF 42, and would normally be expected to use "42.x" as its major channel, but it can't do that due to the potential conflict with KTNC from Concord. So it uses "1.x" as its major channel under special FCC dispensation.

IIRC, the Weigel stations in Chicago and Milwaukee (WCIU/26 and WDJT/58) tried to use 1.x early-on and were shot down by the FCC. I thought 0.x, 1.x, and 37.x were absolute no-nos. Apparently the FCC has been known to make exceptions.

Well thank you both for the education.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

One interesting wrinkle in this story is that Fox reportedly wants stations in three markets: San Francisco/Oakland, Seattle/Tacoma, and St Louis. The report that I saw indicated that the station Fox is reportedly interested in up in Seattle is KIRO/7, the current CBS affiliate -- which is owned by Cox Broadcasting, who also owns KTVU/2 in Oakland/SF. So it's entirely possible that Fox could cut a deal to buy both stations from Cox (which would leave Tribune owned KCPQ/13 in Tacoma in a lurch), or that they could get a favorable deal on KIRO in Seattle in return for letting Cox keep the Fox affiliation for KTVU in San Francisco.

Another complication in all of this is that Tribune, the current owner of the Fox affiliate (KCPQ) in Tacoma/Seattle, is also in the process of buying the Fox in St. Louis, which means that Fox could put pressure on Tribune to sell one of the stations in return for letting Tribune keep the Fox affiliation in hte other market.

There are a lot of opportunities for Fox to exert pressure to get what they want in some combination of these markets.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

TexasTom said:
One interesting wrinkle in this story is that Fox reportedly wants stations in three markets: San Francisco/Oakland, Seattle/Tacoma, and St Louis. The report that I saw indicated that the station Fox is reportedly interested in up in Seattle is KIRO/7, the current CBS affiliate -- which is owned by Cox Broadcasting, who also owns KTVU/2 in Oakland/SF. So it's entirely possible that Fox could cut a deal to buy both stations from Cox (which would leave Tribune owned KCPQ/13 in Tacoma in a lurch), or that they could get a favorable deal on KIRO in Seattle in return for letting Cox keep the Fox affiliation for KTVU in San Francisco.

Another complication in all of this is that Tribune, the current owner of the Fox affiliate (KCPQ) in Tacoma/Seattle, is also in the process of buying the Fox in St. Louis, which means that Fox could put pressure on Tribune to sell one of the stations in return for letting Tribune keep the Fox affiliation in hte other market.

There are a lot of opportunities for Fox to exert pressure to get what they want in some combination of these markets.

Assuming FOX bought KIRO, KCPQ wouldn't be left in a lurch. CBS would need an affiliate. That deal would get done fast.

But don't expect FOX to use San Francisco to make a Seattle deal. SF is the much larger market, with way more revenue. If there was going to be linkage where FOX made a concession in one market to buy in another, it would be sacrificing Seattle in favor of San Francisco.

But in the current consolidation craze, you have to wonder how long Cox can hang on. Every good business works toward the day when they'll sell it and take the money. I'm not at all sure Cox is resistant to the idea of having tens of millions of dollars instead of a couole of TV stations.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

Fox would be wise to try and work a swap deal with Comcast/NBC Universal, Media General and Cox. KNTV is right in the backyard of the new 49'rs stadium. The Fox Sports Network and the NFL will all be players now that a deal has been reached and why would Fox want to buy KRON on Van Ness.

First of all the building is a fire trap and has sustained damage from the last big earthquake in 1989. Secondly sending a crew down there on the 101 freeway during peak hours is a holy nightmare.

The best way to go is to have a station swap with Fox taking 11, NBC on 4 and the My Network syndicated programming on either KTVU or KOFY.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

News4BayArea said:
Fox would be wise to try and work a swap deal with Comcast/NBC Universal, Media General and Cox. KNTV is right in the backyard of the new 49'rs stadium. The Fox Sports Network and the NFL will all be players now that a deal has been reached and why would Fox want to buy KRON on Van Ness.

First of all the building is a fire trap and has sustained damage from the last big earthquake in 1989. Secondly sending a crew down there on the 101 freeway during peak hours is a holy nightmare.

The best way to go is to have a station swap with Fox taking 11, NBC on 4 and the My Network syndicated programming on either KTVU or KOFY.

Okay....

First of all, the proximity of the station to the stadium is irrelevant. That's what trucks are for. The network sends its own for the games. As for the local news coverage of the games, all the stations do that, and NBC11 probably enjoys the proximity.

Second, if KRON on Van Ness is an earthquake-damaged firetrap that FOX should avoid buying, why shouldn't NBC avoid it too? The peacock didn't spend the bucks it has to bring KNTV up to specs to hand it off to a competitor and start over with another fixer-upper.

Third, affiliation swaps are extremely disruptive and the effects can last 10 years or more.

Fourth, you're seriously suggesting that Cox would be better off losing FOX and picking up MyNetworkTV than they would getting 8 or 9 figures (a massive profit) selling KTVU to FOX?

Best move for FOX and Cox: FOX buys KTVU. No disruption, Cox gets a nice payday.

Second best move for FOX if it can't get a deal to buy KTVU: Buy KRON. It gets them a heritage station they don't have to tell people how to find and a good dial position on cable without having to buy their way up. Downsides: Disruption, promotion cost, cost of re-habbing KRON or building new studios. Very bad for Cox, though.

Past that, it gets ugly for everybody unless FOX skips San Francisco and settles for continuing affiliation with KTVU.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

michael hagerty said:
If I were Cox and could get the right deal, I'd sell. If I refused and FOX bought KRON, running KTVU as a pure indie (with a recently tarnished news reputation) wouldn't be all that appealing.

How much, if any, do you really think that "Chinese name" fiasco hurt KTVU?

I realize there are a ton of ethnic Asians in the Bay Area but the only ones likely to be angry about the names would be Chinese (perhaps the largest single culture). Younger, assimilated ethnic Chinese, most likely were not enraged by the faux pas near as much as their elders.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

landtuna said:
michael hagerty said:
If I were Cox and could get the right deal, I'd sell. If I refused and FOX bought KRON, running KTVU as a pure indie (with a recently tarnished news reputation) wouldn't be all that appealing.

How much, if any, do you really think that "Chinese name" fiasco hurt KTVU?

I realize there are a ton of ethnic Asians in the Bay Area but the only ones likely to be angry about the names would be Chinese (perhaps the largest single culture). Younger, assimilated ethnic Chinese, most likely were not enraged by the faux pas near as much as their elders.

I disagree, LandTuna. From what I've read, offense was taken pretty much across the board in the Asian coummunity, not just Chinese and Korean. Besides the offensive stereotype, it sent a message to Asians that KTVU can't tell them apart.

In a market that is 33% Asian, and that has 6 cities that are more than 50% Asian, that's deadly.

Also, remember, news viewers tend to skew older, so the people most likely to take offense are those most likely to be news viewers.

And finally, it was dumb and ignorant. And in a city full of people that pride themselves on being smart and tolerant, the damage goes way beyond those of the offended ethnicity.

They can probably re-hab themselves (though the failure to disclose openly how the list was created severely damages their credibility) as a FOX affiliate or an O&O, but this'd be a lousy time to become an independent and rely on your news image to get you through. Tragic, because until that happened, KTVU was a station I would have argued could do that.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

michael hagerty said:
landtuna said:
michael hagerty said:
If I were Cox and could get the right deal, I'd sell. If I refused and FOX bought KRON, running KTVU as a pure indie (with a recently tarnished news reputation) wouldn't be all that appealing.

How much, if any, do you really think that "Chinese name" fiasco hurt KTVU?

I realize there are a ton of ethnic Asians in the Bay Area but the only ones likely to be angry about the names would be Chinese (perhaps the largest single culture). Younger, assimilated ethnic Chinese, most likely were not enraged by the faux pas near as much as their elders.

I disagree, LandTuna. From what I've read, offense was taken pretty much across the board in the Asian coummunity, not just Chinese and Korean. Besides the offensive stereotype, it sent a message to Asians that KTVU can't tell them apart.

In a market that is 33% Asian, and that has 6 cities that are more than 50% Asian, that's deadly.

Also, remember, news viewers tend to skew older, so the people most likely to take offense are those most likely to be news viewers.

And finally, it was dumb and ignorant. And in a city full of people that pride themselves on being smart and tolerant, the damage goes way beyond those of the offended ethnicity.

They can probably re-hab themselves (though the failure to disclose openly how the list was created severely damages their credibility) as a FOX affiliate or an O&O, but this'd be a lousy time to become an independent and rely on your news image to get you through. Tragic, because until that happened, KTVU was a station I would have argued could do that.

Once again we agree Michael.

I too believe they could continue as an independent, CW or MyNet TV affiliate similar to KTLA. But this is truly a bad time for them to have to rehab should they lose there Fox affiliation.
 
Re: FOX WANTS A TV STATION IN THE SF BAY AREA

stewie said:
michael hagerty said:
landtuna said:
michael hagerty said:
If I were Cox and could get the right deal, I'd sell. If I refused and FOX bought KRON, running KTVU as a pure indie (with a recently tarnished news reputation) wouldn't be all that appealing.

How much, if any, do you really think that "Chinese name" fiasco hurt KTVU?

I realize there are a ton of ethnic Asians in the Bay Area but the only ones likely to be angry about the names would be Chinese (perhaps the largest single culture). Younger, assimilated ethnic Chinese, most likely were not enraged by the faux pas near as much as their elders.

I disagree, LandTuna. From what I've read, offense was taken pretty much across the board in the Asian coummunity, not just Chinese and Korean. Besides the offensive stereotype, it sent a message to Asians that KTVU can't tell them apart.

In a market that is 33% Asian, and that has 6 cities that are more than 50% Asian, that's deadly.

Also, remember, news viewers tend to skew older, so the people most likely to take offense are those most likely to be news viewers.

And finally, it was dumb and ignorant. And in a city full of people that pride themselves on being smart and tolerant, the damage goes way beyond those of the offended ethnicity.

They can probably re-hab themselves (though the failure to disclose openly how the list was created severely damages their credibility) as a FOX affiliate or an O&O, but this'd be a lousy time to become an independent and rely on your news image to get you through. Tragic, because until that happened, KTVU was a station I would have argued could do that.

Once again we agree Michael.

I too believe they could continue as an independent, CW or MyNet TV affiliate similar to KTLA. But this is truly a bad time for them to have to rehab should they lose there Fox affiliation.

Although KTLA has been successful, it should be noted that Tribune paid $510 million for it 15 years or so ago, and it's not worth anywhere near that now. A CW, MyNet or Indie that isn't duopolied with a big four affiliate or O&O is a tough business to be in, and would be nowhere near as lucrative as being a FOX affiliate has been, with the possible exception of an indie with 10 hours or more of local news. But then, reputation and image are critical.
 
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