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AM Radio in San Francisco
- Thread starter e-dawg
- Start date
1 terrain... An FM unfriendly market.
2. Geography. The market is bigger than any FM signal but several AMs cover it well.
K
kenglish
Guest
Similar situation in Salt Lake City....KSL-AM and KSL-FM. The FM does a good job of covering the metro area (SLC, Ogden, Provo), but many people still prefer to tune to the AM. The 50 KW AM covers the rest of the state pretty well, and gets in to the many valleys.
I wonder how other markets do.
I wonder how other markets do.
K
kcpr_the_sound_of_slo
Guest
Talk and news radio (including sports play-by-play) actually sounds better IMHO on am.
DaveBayArea
Star Participant
Plus - the Giants fans. KNBR does baseball rather well. Not to mention the fact that their powerful transmitter is right on the bay. That signal is fairly immune to the interference problems that generally plague AM.
Dave B.
Actually I was thinking how AM has taken a dive in San Francisco, which was the last market, thanks to those hills, where AM radio was still fairly healthy. It wasn't too long ago that KGO was, book after book, for more than 20 years, the #1 station in San Francisco. And the ratings for KGO were even better in San Jose! It was always in the top 5 in the 25-54 demo in both markets.
Not just KGO but KNBR and KCBS were usually in the top 10. And that was KCBS without an FM simulcast. If you go back to the 80s, 610 KFRC hung on longer than any AM Top 40 station in a large market. WABC and WLS were already well into Talk Radio when KFRC was still playing the hits. And then 610 had a few years of success playing Adult Standards/Soft Oldies as Magic 610. For many years, KOIT had an AM simulcast on 1260 when it was SF's top FM station.
Now look at the ratings. KGO just dropped below a 2.0, first time in memory. KCBS is #2 but who knows how much of that is FM and how much is AM? SF's three Talk Radio stations, KSFO, KKSF and KNEW, are #24, 26 and 28 respectively. The one shining star is KNBR. Even though they have FM competition as a Sports station, they are #1 thanks to the Giants, and in the top 5 25-54. So yes, KNBR is quite amazing, a #1 AM station that even does well 25-54, even though much of that success is thanks to baseball. The station drops out of the top 10 during the off season.
KNBR, KCBS and KGO have excellent signals, night and day, heard up and down the Pacific Coast. So if you say AM still does better in SF than in, say Dallas or Houston, where no AM station makes the top 15, you're right. But it is a big come-down from just a few years ago.
Not just KGO but KNBR and KCBS were usually in the top 10. And that was KCBS without an FM simulcast. If you go back to the 80s, 610 KFRC hung on longer than any AM Top 40 station in a large market. WABC and WLS were already well into Talk Radio when KFRC was still playing the hits. And then 610 had a few years of success playing Adult Standards/Soft Oldies as Magic 610. For many years, KOIT had an AM simulcast on 1260 when it was SF's top FM station.
Now look at the ratings. KGO just dropped below a 2.0, first time in memory. KCBS is #2 but who knows how much of that is FM and how much is AM? SF's three Talk Radio stations, KSFO, KKSF and KNEW, are #24, 26 and 28 respectively. The one shining star is KNBR. Even though they have FM competition as a Sports station, they are #1 thanks to the Giants, and in the top 5 25-54. So yes, KNBR is quite amazing, a #1 AM station that even does well 25-54, even though much of that success is thanks to baseball. The station drops out of the top 10 during the off season.
KNBR, KCBS and KGO have excellent signals, night and day, heard up and down the Pacific Coast. So if you say AM still does better in SF than in, say Dallas or Houston, where no AM station makes the top 15, you're right. But it is a big come-down from just a few years ago.
michael hagerty
Walk of Fame Participant
I think the story is a bit more complex than what's been suggested.
First, big, well-programmed AMs are still doing well in several markets...WCBS in New York, WBBM in Chicago, WSB in Atlanta, WBZ in Boston, WWJ in Detroit, KMOX in St. Louis, to a lesser extent WINS in New York, KYW in Philadelphia, WBAL in Baltimore and KDKA in Pittsburgh.
Those are not all terrain-challenged markets for FM. What they have in common is that they are big, well-run news or news/talk operations (many owned by CBS).
And given that 8 of the top 10 stations in San Francisco are FM, I'm not sure terrain is that big a factor. KMEL had as good a number 25 years ago as KFRC had 35 years ago. Michael Spears told R&R after KFRC went nostalgia that "we enjoyed spreading the myth that FM didn't work in San Francisco. It wasn't true."
It's as much programming and management that are keeping any AM that used to do strong numbers in SF from doing them today. There are really only five big signals...680, 810, 740, 610 and 560. 810 and 560 are their own thread, and 610 isn't realistically going to get big ratings with Family Radio (which is why CBS sold it to them).
David, do we know how much of KCBS' number comes from AM versus FM?
Pending those numbers, Gregg, AM really hasn't taken a dive in SF, apart from KGO and KSFO, which are way more about Citadel and now Cumulus' management (the same thing is happening to WABC, KABC and WLS) than about being on AM in San Francisco.
960 had numbers they couldn't sell when they were nostalgia. Not much since. And it's been 22 years since 910 had a 1 share or better.
Everybody likes to cite KFRC's sticking with Top 40 well beyond most AM stations, but go back and look at the ratings via David's Americanradiohistory.com site and you'll see that KFRC was on a downward slide from 1979 onward. They'd fallen to 19th place by 1985, the year before they went nostalgia (and rapidly became the #1 AM music station in town again...with demos they couldn't sell). That signal hasn't seen a number above a 1.0 in 22 years (when they came back as oldies in 1993, the FM carried most of the numbers).
First, big, well-programmed AMs are still doing well in several markets...WCBS in New York, WBBM in Chicago, WSB in Atlanta, WBZ in Boston, WWJ in Detroit, KMOX in St. Louis, to a lesser extent WINS in New York, KYW in Philadelphia, WBAL in Baltimore and KDKA in Pittsburgh.
Those are not all terrain-challenged markets for FM. What they have in common is that they are big, well-run news or news/talk operations (many owned by CBS).
And given that 8 of the top 10 stations in San Francisco are FM, I'm not sure terrain is that big a factor. KMEL had as good a number 25 years ago as KFRC had 35 years ago. Michael Spears told R&R after KFRC went nostalgia that "we enjoyed spreading the myth that FM didn't work in San Francisco. It wasn't true."
It's as much programming and management that are keeping any AM that used to do strong numbers in SF from doing them today. There are really only five big signals...680, 810, 740, 610 and 560. 810 and 560 are their own thread, and 610 isn't realistically going to get big ratings with Family Radio (which is why CBS sold it to them).
David, do we know how much of KCBS' number comes from AM versus FM?
Pending those numbers, Gregg, AM really hasn't taken a dive in SF, apart from KGO and KSFO, which are way more about Citadel and now Cumulus' management (the same thing is happening to WABC, KABC and WLS) than about being on AM in San Francisco.
960 had numbers they couldn't sell when they were nostalgia. Not much since. And it's been 22 years since 910 had a 1 share or better.
Everybody likes to cite KFRC's sticking with Top 40 well beyond most AM stations, but go back and look at the ratings via David's Americanradiohistory.com site and you'll see that KFRC was on a downward slide from 1979 onward. They'd fallen to 19th place by 1985, the year before they went nostalgia (and rapidly became the #1 AM music station in town again...with demos they couldn't sell). That signal hasn't seen a number above a 1.0 in 22 years (when they came back as oldies in 1993, the FM carried most of the numbers).
michael hagerty
Walk of Fame Participant
What about it?
I think he was mentioning a big, well programed AM that was still doing well. He must have missed a couple of pages.
or 
sdwulfdawg
Star Participant
KSL is a very cleverly programmed stations. All of their programs are really what I like to call "appointment radio." You actually want to turn on to the different shows to hear what the hosts have to say, even the irreverent "The Nightside Project."
I think he was mentioning a big, well programed AM that was still doing well. He must have missed a couple of pages.
KFI has recently fallen out of the top 10 stations in 12+ and is around 20th in 25-54. That's not a good example of an AM that is doing well.
But it is definitely not an example of a well performing AM. They stress the FM in all positioning on air and on the web, and have noticeably improved the 25-54 performance since adding the FM simulcast. It was a gradually declining and aging AM that was revitalized by adding FM and keeping its programming better balanced than many traditional AM talkers.
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