Modern Worship and more

anotherguy said:

Would that be equal to what I've heard called essentials or basics vs. non-essentials?

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It is similar. Adiaphora is what we call things like what vestments the clergy should wear, whether the altar should be the central focus of the church, or the pulpit. But, adiaphora does sometimes stem from core beliefs. In my faith tradition, the sacraments are essential to worship, so the altar is in the center. Preaching God's Word is also important, but not so important as the sacraments, so we put the pulpit in front, but off to one side. In some of our churches, we use a pulpit on one side of the chancel for reading the Gospel and preaching, and a lectern on the other side for reading the Epistles and Old Testament lessons. But other of our churches now just use an ambo, which is the pulpit and lectern combined.

Some faith traditions, like the one I belong to, have compiled lengthy documents that summarize our interpretation of Scripture. We call ours a "confession", and consider ourselves a "confessional" church. Other faith traditions also have similar confession documents. We all place the word of Scripture as the ultimate source of all knowledge and understanding regarding matters of faith, but we recognize that some people might interpret the texts differently. We rely on our confessions as the most accurate summary that we puny humans are capable of, even though we recognize that as fallible humans, our confessions might also contain errors. We have faith that those errors are few, and that if there any important errors, the Holy Spirit will guide us to correct them.

Adiaphora is then, for us, those things not covered in our confessions.

Avid Listener said:

It is similar. Adiaphora is what we call things like what vestments the clergy should wear, whether the altar should be the central focus of the church, or the pulpit.

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Wow - new word every day. When I do radio, I cast my net as widely as possible. I don't do preaching, it doesn't fit the format of a music station. When selecting music, I look for three core doctrines:

(1) Salvation comes only from Christ on the cross and is sufficient for forgiveness of all sin
(2) Christ's existence from the creation of the universe
(3) The inerrancy of the Bible

I leave out things like Baptism, Bible translations, works vs. faith, litergies, confessions of faith, creationism, denominations, Catholic vs. Protestant, the Pope, how many angels fit on the head of a pin, etc. to churches and individuals to hash out. These issues are not important to salvation, and the moment I align myself with the Baptist church down the street or something - all the Catholics tune out, etc.

Some of you may be saying - but you say the Bible is inerrant yet you don't support creationism. That would be correct. Creationism is not good Biblical scholarship - I will leave the issue at that. It also polarizes people and every intelligent person - saved or not - tunes out those creationist programs. I won't give them air time - I would rather put a really good song on instead.

rbrucecarter5 said:

Wow - new word every day. When I do radio, I cast my net as widely as possible. I don't do preaching, it doesn't fit the format of a music station. When selecting music, I look for three core doctrines:

(1) Salvation comes only from Christ on the cross and is sufficient for forgiveness of all sin
(2) Christ's existence from the creation of the universe
(3) The inerrancy of the Bible

I leave out things like Baptism, Bible translations, works vs. faith, litergies, confessions of faith, creationism, denominations, Catholic vs. Protestant, the Pope, how many angels fit on the head of a pin, etc. to churches and individuals to hash out. These issues are not important to salvation, and the moment I align myself with the Baptist church down the street or something - all the Catholics tune out, etc.

Some of you may be saying - but you say the Bible is inerrant yet you don't support creationism. That would be correct. Creationism is not good Biblical scholarship - I will leave the issue at that. It also polarizes people and every intelligent person - saved or not - tunes out those creationist programs. I won't give them air time - I would rather put a really good song on instead.

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Bruce,
I don't want to get this thread further OT, but when you're talking about creationism do you mean the young earth creationists like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind? I definitely agree with you that they use bad science and should be left off CCM radio. But there is also old earth or progressive creationism and intelligent design, which is what I tend to believe more and accounts for the age of the universe being in the billions of years. Unfortunately some young earth creationists try to make it a divisive issue and even question the salvation of anyone who disagrees with them, and it has a big stranglehold in a lot of churches, in some cases even worse than KJV Onlyism.

But I agree with you that it's an issue that should be left off of CCM radio. Unfortuntely a lot of local CCM stations carry it. Even in the case of other views of creation that should be left to the intelligent Christian talk stations, (Yes they DO exist!) and not the dollar a holler stations that allow anyone on for a buck. Unfortunately even some of the Christian talk stations that usually have better programming buy into the young earth theories and give differing views little or no time.

I lean toward progressive creation, but I mainly believe God did it, and that's all that matters!

anotherguy said:

Bruce,
I don't want to get this thread further OT, but when you're talking about creationism do you mean the young earth creationists like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind? I definitely agree with you that they use bad science and should be left off CCM radio. But there is also old earth or progressive creationism and intelligent design, which is what I tend to believe more and accounts for the age of the universe being in the billions of years. Unfortunately some young earth creationists try to make it a divisive issue and even question the salvation of anyone who disagrees with them, and it has a big stranglehold in a lot of churches, in some cases even worse than KJV Onlyism.

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Without looking into the old earth creationism you mention, I would have to reserve judgement. I tend towards giving God the credit for creating the universe as science currently describes it. But whenever Christianity has aligned itself with a scientific - or non-scientific - viewpoint through history, the cause of Christ has been hurt. That is why I leave creationism off the air. The decision is as much to make more room for music than anything else. I've tangled with those creationist nuts before, they end up wishing they hadn't brought the subject up. But I only cut them to ribbons intellectually when they get in my face, tell me I'm not saved unless I believe their Genesis interpretation, and demand air time for their material - which isn't going to happen! You are right, they can get even more offensive than KJV only people, who generally don't listen to Christian rock radio anyway. I don't enjoy taking down creationists - it is a tragedy that they have been so deceived and their thinking so radically warped into circular reasoning. We don't need nuts like that in churches, either. They drive intellectuals and scientists right out the door. I wonder who would benefit from doing a pre-frontal lobotomy on the church? Anybody?

I remember a rather humorous incident involving a preacher I know personally and really like - Ed Young Jr. In his beginning days, over 30 years ago, he was an enthusiastic member of his father's church, and persuaded his father to allow him to give a creationism seminar. He started with the human and dinosaur footprints together in Paluxy. What he didn't know is that the PBS show Nova had just done - days before - an exploration of the topic, and had totally disproved those human footprints! The townspeople had gone out and hacked toes on the footprints of a plant eater with a foot size similar to humans. When they did a cross section it was clear that the toes had been added, and the original plant eater footprints in the river were undisturbed. Apparently as early as the 30's the people of Paluxy realized the tourist potential of "men walking with dinosaurs", and made sure they had the "proof". I was so embarrassed for Ed Jr., I felt like taking him aside and telling him he needed to cool it about the men walking with dinosaurs because it had been totally disproved. But I didn't. Some friend I was - I let him step in that and embarrass himself.

The good folks at KVRK in Dallas broadcast those "creation minutes" and they still talk about humans and dinosaurs walking together in Paluxy. I sent money to KVRK, but specified on the check it was NEVER to pay for that heresy show. Thankfully, I don't hear that garbage on NGEN or the WPOZ sub-channels.

Avid Listener said:

It is similar. Adiaphora is what we call things like what vestments the clergy should wear, whether the altar should be the central focus of the church, or the pulpit. But, adiaphora does sometimes stem from core beliefs. In my faith tradition, the sacraments are essential to worship, so the altar is in the center. Preaching God's Word is also important, but not so important as the sacraments, so we put the pulpit in front, but off to one side. In some of our churches, we use a pulpit on one side of the chancel for reading the Gospel and preaching, and a lectern on the other side for reading the Epistles and Old Testament lessons. But other of our churches now just use an ambo, which is the pulpit and lectern combined.

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When I was a child we had the pulpit on the right and the lectern on the left. Later, we had one pulpit for both purposes. Soloists even sang from this location when I was a teenager. I don't recall what we had in the churches I've gone to since then except where I go now, the pulpit is off to one side and is used for scripture readings, announcements, and the sermon, though the pastors in recent years have tended to go out in the center, in front of the table with the candles, offering plates and, when we do it, bread and juice for Communion.

We had a man and his son play acoustic guitars yesterday. What they played was so conservative you wouldn't even classify it as contemporary worship. Similarly, at a church I used to go where I have been going on fourth Sundays sometimes (because my church tends to lean more toward the contemporary style on those Sundays), a man has played a guitar on several occasions. The choir sang the call to worship and the benediction with the guitar, which has never been done in the times I have attended this church. But it's Southern gospel and very conservative, not the type of guitar music that bothers me.

We have occasionally had a Southern gospel quartet with an electric guitar but, again, this is the good kind of guitar playing, if one has my taste in music.

"That Thing You Do!" is a movie set in 1964, about a rock and roll band.

It was really weird seeing these guys perform in a large dignified church sanctuary with a pipe organ behind them, but the drummer's uncle recorded choirs there and was able to let them make their first record.

Today, I suppose such instruments even in that room wouldn't be such a big deal,.

vchimpanzee said:

"That Thing You Do!" is a movie set in 1964, about a rock and roll band.

It was really weird seeing these guys perform in a large dignified church sanctuary with a pipe organ behind them, but the drummer's uncle recorded choirs there and was able to let them make their first record.

Today, I suppose such instruments even in that room wouldn't be such a big deal,.

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Only in the Church of Christ, or some other denomination that believes that ALL instrumental music is unacceptable in church. Although I disagree with that idea, I can come closer to accepting that idea than the idea that some musical instruments or styles of music are acceptable and others aren't.

Even in ultra conservative churches guitars can be found, even though they're probably only allowed to be played in what they consider to be an "acceptable" style. But I guess that drums are still out some places. In the church I grew up in we had a Southern Gospel group with drums that came in once, but they were played so low that I don't know what the point of having them was.

I have reason to be concerned about my church now.

It appears people do care about the old hymns and like having an organist. So maybe nothing will change.

But our organist has been a professor at the local college for 34 years and I found out Sunday that even though she is back from spending the summer with her parents, she is retired now. Someone said she would likely move near her parents.

So the decision has to be made about what to do. Our substitute organist has made it clear she will not take over. It's understandable. That's a big job and she has to do it all summer now. She's always so relieved when the responsibility is over.

vchimpanzee said:

I have reason to be concerned about my church now.

It appears people do care about the old hymns and like having an organist. So maybe nothing will change.

But our organist has been a professor at the local college for 34 years and I found out Sunday that even though she is back from spending the summer with her parents, she is retired now. Someone said she would likely move near her parents.

So the decision has to be made about what to do. Our substitute organist has made it clear she will not take over. It's understandable. That's a big job and she has to do it all summer now. She's always so relieved when the responsibility is over.

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That is, and has been, a problem for churches of all faith traditions for some time now. Fewer and fewer musicians are choosing the path of learning to play the organ well enough by sight-reading sheet music to become church organists.

My organist said yesterday several men came and moved a lot of her stuff out of the house. I would have helped if I had known. Anyway, I don't know what this means. I also haven't heard what the future is. But I still feel confident that people like the old hymns. I know the pastor does even though he's kind of young.

vchimpanzee said:

My organist said yesterday several men came and moved a lot of her stuff out of the house. I would have helped if I had known. Anyway, I don't know what this means. I also haven't heard what the future is. But I still feel confident that people like the old hymns. I know the pastor does even though he's kind of young.

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When singing a hymn (or any song) aloud in a group setting, the date it was written is irrelevant. I've been in charge of the Worship and Music committee of two congregations over the years, and have been an active worship planner and church musician. People like the "good" hymns, regardless of their age. Most folks don't agree on which ones are the "good" ones and which aren't, but when the hymn was written usually has nothing to do with the evaluation.

The good hymns do tend to be the ones written a hundred years ago or more.

The weird thing is people talking about "old" songs which weren't in the hymnal but were in the Cokesbury. These weren't as old as the ones with music written by Bach or Handel or Beethoven, but I guess it seemed like it because we were still singing those on Sunday morning. Then in 1989 a lot of those "old" songs ended up in the hymnal.

We've had a new Methodist Hymnal every 25 years since 1939, so this is the year we should have a new one, but I haven't heard anything. The last one was the first United Methodist Hymnal. They did give us a supplement called "The Faith We Sing" which had hymns and songs of all ages, including the ones I have regarded as being for "contemporary worship" but have probably graduated to the status of "lame praise and worship". I don't care for those but they're not so bad if playued on the organ or piano.

Vchimpanzee, I can totally relate to being sensitive to certain music, as I have auditory/tactile synesthesia, which means that not only do I hear sounds, but sometimes I feel them. There are some music sounds that give me a feeling like my insides are crawling. That's not fun at church. I used to get upset as a kid because I thought they were doing it to troll me, but now that I know what it is and that it's pretty rare and that it's pretty illogical that the church musicians are deliberately playing something that will mess with me I just let it pass, although you might hear me go, "Oh boy, here we go" under my breath if you're standing beside me.

The thing about Christian music is that a lot of people confuse their preferences for what's right and wrong, and if they don't like it they assume it's evil, and sometimes twist Scripture to make it say what they want them to say about music. I don't claim to be a Bible expert by any means, but I've never seen anywhere in the Bible where it actually tells us how to play music. It talks a lot about our attitude when we play and sing for God, and mentions several instruments we can use, but there's nothing in there about music theory and style, much as some people would like for it to be in there.

Personally i gravitate more toward traditional southern/country gospel, but I'm pretty versatile so I'll give anything a try. I'm not that crazy about most CCM, but that is because it sounds like the pop/rock music of today, which is a channel flipper for me. I do like some of the softer songs, but there's plenty of music I like about Jesus, and I don't really want to hear a musical style I don't like just because it's got Jesus on it. I know of course that this is a preference, and would never begrudge anyone their CCM.

Regarding a post a few pages back, a gentleman was talking about the song I Can Only Imagine and said the lyrics were atheistic. Can you please explain to me how you come by this interpretation, maybe by PM if you'd like so as not to clutter the thread with OT? Thanks.

oldiesgirl said:

Vchimpanzee, I can totally relate to being sensitive to certain music, as I have auditory/tactile synesthesia, which means that not only do I hear sounds, but sometimes I feel them. There are some music sounds that give me a feeling like my insides are crawling. That's not fun at church. I used to get upset as a kid because I thought they were doing it to troll me, but now that I know what it is and that it's pretty rare and that it's pretty illogical that the church musicians are deliberately playing something that will mess with me I just let it pass, although you might hear me go, "Oh boy, here we go" under my breath if you're standing beside me.

The thing about Christian music is that a lot of people confuse their preferences for what's right and wrong, and if they don't like it they assume it's evil, and sometimes twist Scripture to make it say what they want them to say about music. I don't claim to be a Bible expert by any means, but I've never seen anywhere in the Bible where it actually tells us how to play music. It talks a lot about our attitude when we play and sing for God, and mentions several instruments we can use, but there's nothing in there about music theory and style, much as some people would like for it to be in there.

Personally i gravitate more toward traditional southern/country gospel, but I'm pretty versatile so I'll give anything a try. I'm not that crazy about most CCM, but that is because it sounds like the pop/rock music of today, which is a channel flipper for me. I do like some of the softer songs, but there's plenty of music I like about Jesus, and I don't really want to hear a musical style I don't like just because it's got Jesus on it. I know of course that this is a preference, and would never begrudge anyone their CCM.

Regarding a post a few pages back, a gentleman was talking about the song I Can Only Imagine and said the lyrics were atheistic. Can you please explain to me how you come by this interpretation, maybe by PM if you'd like so as not to clutter the thread with OT? Thanks.

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I bowed out of this thread a long time ago, but I thought I would come back for just a moment. I sympathize with those who have some objection to CCM, and oldiesgirl - you seem to have a medical condition - so, wow, you should definitely abstain. I have to come down on the side of the greatest good for the greatest number. I came to that conclusion after that woman almost dragged me from my post on the sound board because her son had oversensitive hearing. The sound went silent in the room because I was busy with her nonsense - she needs to get her son some earmuffs and leave the sound board technician alone! The same with the person that burst into our station with their tirade, etc. They need to tune to another frequency. The Bible says a lot about not disrupting worship, and I extend that to Christian radio. As long as I am where the Lord wants me to be - anybody causing disruption to the ministry is doing so at the bidding of the devil, whether they realize it or not. Those with special needs need to adapt - not try to make the rest of the Christian world adapt to them. This looks a whole lot like political correctness creeping into the church - don't offend anybody, make sure everybody's idiosyncrasy is accommodated, etc. I will leave that for the state controlled schools. It has no place in the church. Those with different ministerial needs must find a different station, a different church, wear hearing protection, etc - and drop the judgement!

Actually it's not all CCM that bothers me, it's just not the music I prefer. I do listen to K-Love occasionally. Totally agree about people being disruptive and judgmental. If you don't like the music, you don't have to listen to it, but I hate when people try to deprive others of their right to enjoy the music that reaches them.

K-Love doesn't reach me. I pick up he signal but don't want to.

This one church near where I live seems to do one of those contemporary songs with a tape every week. And all the lyrics to all the songs are on a screen, which isn't all that big. Along with the scripture. I made sure I was in the basement for that one song, after I saw where it was on the bulletin. And I had to find the right place in the basement for it not to bother me.

And there were people coming and going from the time people shook hadns with each other until after the children left. There is children's time in the sanctuary and then they go to their own place.

I was trying out several churches in case I can't go to the one I have gone to for 25 years, but nothing is quite satisfactory yet.

I have found out that my church's organist leaves at the end of October. This past Sunday, the man in charge of finding a new orgnist played the guitar when the choir would have normally sung. His son played the mandolin. Those who like rock would probably laugh at it if there was a recording, but they quit doing that at my church for some reason. To me, this is the only acceptable way to play the acoustic guitar in church.

I read Miss Manners online in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. I always enjoy her outdated advice. I don't feel about manners the way I do about music, but anyway, I happened to see an article about church music in a list on the right side of the screen. Someone said today's Christian music will not stand the test of time the way traditional Christian music has.

vchimpanzee said:

Someone said today's Christian music will not stand the test of time the way traditional Christian music has.

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You can always find "someone" who'll say anything. Back in Bach's day, someone said that organ music would never catch on in churches.

Avid Listener said:

You can always find "someone" who'll say anything. Back in Bach's day, someone said that organ music would never catch on in churches.

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I think this thread has run its course. While I sympathize with vchimpanzee in his quest to preserve his church the way he is comfortable, it is not a radio issue. Granted changing churches to find one to your liking isn't as simple as changing the station to one to your liking, that is really the only advice I can give. As far as radio, I learned a long time ago I cannot be everything to everybody. There is no single, universal musical style approved by God. He approves of everything done in His will and to His glory. I simply do, and will continue to do, what God calls me to do on the air and if someone doesn't like it, change the station. Thankfully, Christians who disagree with each other can part in peace, we aren't beheading each other like that other false religion.

Time to move on - people!