There Was Never A Shortage Of Product:

Rock stations with their short-shallow playlists have lost listeners, as their paid(?) Consultants asured them that they were right on track. Hmmmmm?

New Rock product would've saved most that flubbed. There was never any airplay for any post-Steve Perry Journey material, while plenty was availble: Three albums with Steve Augeri, and two with current vocalist, Arnnell Pinetta. Good, solid Journey songs, but who is to blame for the denied airplay?

Foreigner has experieced the same shun, with their current front man, Kelly Hansen.

How say ye,...Think Tank Members?

Scooter Lesley.
Higgins,...bring me the wench!

Scooter Lesley said:

Rock stations with their short-shallow playlists have lost listeners, as their paid(?) Consultants asured them that they were right on track. Hmmmmm?

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I don't think so. The size of the playlist wasn't the issue. Instead, the "Balkinization" of the format. People are no longer fans of genres when it comes to rock. They're fans of artists. You play their favorite artists, and they'll listen. You don't and they don't. It's not the kind of music you can build a format around any more. Plus, the explosion of music sources where fans can find just the music they want make something like mass media obsolete for them. Rock music no longer works on mass media. Why listen to a radio station, regardless of how big the playlist, if you have to sit through songs or artists you don't like...just to get a few that you do? The bigger the playlist, the longer the wait. That's not a big selling point.

Scooter Lesley said:

There was never any airplay for any post-Steve Perry Journey material, while plenty was availble: Three albums with Steve Augeri, and two with current vocalist, Arnnell Pinetta.

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That's an interesting example, because in the rock community, there was a lot of criticism to the hiring of a former tribute band singer to replace Perry. Not exactly a popular decision among the fans. Sure, the band was able to continue to tour and make money, but name memorable songs from any of those albums. Any time a popular band replaces the lead singer and tours, there is criticism. It happened with Van Halen. Some people absolutely refuse to listen to Van Halen with Sammy Hagar. Would you want to hear The Beatles led by Julian Lennon? Would you consider that The Beatles? I bet a lot of people would argue with you. And that gets back to my point about the Balkinization of rock music.

Well,...I was hoping for some discussion, with a little starch to it. Instead, I have still, yet again, TheBigA, taking the time to sit his juice box down, just long enough to type us all a mass of totally incorrect drivel. There is so much of it....I won't bore you with me having to thwart it all at once. Yet, I will first handle his opening statement, a point that I had corrected, over 15-years ago. ...and just recently, catching up to the obvious, Jacob's Media; per their TechSurvey 10. Short-shallow playlists are the dead end road results of what happens, when you burn your playlist. Per Jacob's Media: "The #1 Cluprit Is Repetitive Music.".

Recently, Earth FM garnered a 2.9, with a massively deep & wide Oldies playlist.

Now, I ask those reading,...Is a short-shallow playlist a good idea?

Scooter Lesley said:

Per Jacob's Media: "The #1 Cluprit Is Repetitive Music.".

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You're not telling the context of that quote. What format was he speaking about?

I heard a Top 40 PD tell me today he increased his cume simply by doubling his heavies from 50 spins a week to over 78. That means he's playing his heavy songs 11 times a day, or every two hours. And his audience LOVES it. Your problem isn't radio. Your problem is the people who listen to radio.

Scooter Lesley said:

Recently, Earth FM garnered a 2.9, with a massively deep & wide Oldies playlist.

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And then they cut the playlist, and NOW they are getting a 4.2. See what happens when you cut the crap?

The oldies audience don't want deep and wide playlists. They want their favorites. And they want to hear their favorites all the time. They don't care about repetition. How many times have you heard the same Christmas songs or Happy Birthday or the National Anthem? The last one always gets a standing ovation, no matter how often it gets played.

Before I turn my attention back to TheBigA...for his second scalding, I'll thwart Mr. Ed, with another quote, from the Jacob's Media TechSurvey 10:
"Play the same songs too often....Loose Listeners.".

I have known/preached this for years to OM's/PD's/Corp PD's, and various pencilneck Contultants. I am pointing this out as the problem that I predicted way ahead of time, and now thankful that Jacob's Media, and all their clout, are indirectly backing what I said would pass. On 4/2 Jacob's Media presented their findings to all that attended The Worldwide Radio Sumitt.........I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall!

For non-current formats: play the songs that people know. Be aware of artist separation and title spins. My rule-of-thumb was two days and a daypart for titles with artist separation of 2h 20m. Sure, some of the A1 songs played during the day would recycle 12A-5AM, but there's, likely, a vastly difference audience then.

As for album cuts that weren't as big, I had an "F" category that was dayparted 10p-5a M-Fr and 6p-5a Sa/Su and played one cut every three hours to "throw 'em a bone".

If a listener, who is a big Neil Young fan, wants to hear "Cortez the Killer", for example, they can listen to it on numerous platforms. Why play it on your station and drive away listeners?

For those keeping score, on the home version of this waffling of words, neither of the two Jacob's Media quotes were taken out of context. I presented them both in the context that they were served,...verbatim,....from the preview page, on the All Access site.

Also,.....in pure truth,...you can find both "Cortez The Killer" & "Down By The River" as Neil Young staples on any correctly programmed A.O.R.,....and most Classic Rockers.

Scooter Lesley said:

For those keeping score, on the home version of this waffling of words, neither of the two Jacob's Media quotes were taken out of context. I presented them both in the context that they were served,...verbatim,....from the preview page, on the All Access site.

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Except that All Access also took the quotes out of context. Context requires going to the actual words said by the original speaker.

While Mr. Ed is in the midst melting some of his Geographic Confusion, as to why he lives in California, yet blogs on this South Carolina page, I will attend to the set duties of my original Thread/Topic: At some point, long term bands, have to change members. Changing the Singer....or the "Mouthpiece" has always been a worry of acceptance, but many have done so, without missing a swing. Not all come from tribute bands, but pulling those candidates in, lessens painful auditions. Tommy Thayer of KISS....came from a trib band. Arnnell Pinetta of Journey did, but pre-him, Steve Augeri was an audition from a Frisco area band, Tall Stories. Boston found their new guy on Youtube. It was narrow-minded Programmers that didn't check for the proof in the pudding, that denied Airplay when they shudda went with it. Journey's current, Arnnell Pinetta can hit high notes that Steve Perry could not then, and most certainly can't now. Fact: The listening public can't pass judgement, if they have never heard it....because of you!

Scooter Lesley said:

Fact: The listening public can't pass judgement, if they have never heard it....because of you!

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Maybe you didn't read my first post. I responded directly to this. Replacement lead singers are controversial issues in the world of rock music. I gave the Van Halen example. In country music, the band Lonestar was having consistent hit success, headlining concerts, and winning awards. Then their lead singer decided to go solo. They replaced him, but the band immediately lost their record deal and hasn't had a hit since. This is not a radio decision. This is a music decision. Made first by the band, then by the band's label and other business partners. None of the revived bands you list got major label deals with their new lead singers. The real issue isn't the lead singer. It's the songs, the promotion, the age of the rest of the band, and the lack of interest by the fans in the revival. They've seen it all before. Creedence Clearwater without John Fogerty. Lovin' Spoonful without John Sebastian. The Mamas & The Papas without Mama Cass. On and on. As I said, would you want to listen to The Beatles lead by Julian Lennon? Is that radio's problem? No. This is a music problem. If these bands hadn't prostituted themselves with karaoke singers, the listening public might be interested. But the truth is, once the hits stop, the listening public moves on to the next big thing, or they just play the old records. As you say, for the fans, there is never shortage of product. But rather, there is a shortage of QUALITY product that resonates with them. That's the real story.

But let's talk about the original bands for a minute. Let's talk about Journey. Why did radio play their records in the first place? Was it Steve Perry? No. He wasn't in the original band. Gregg Rolie, who sang Santana's biggest hit, was their original lead singer. Steve came later. But the band had a deal with Columbia, and Columbia got behind the new line-up, and the rest is history. Plus Steve was more than just a lead singer. He was a hit songwriter. He wrote Lights, Open Arms, and many more. That's what's missing today. What you have now is a karaoke band with the original lead guitarist.

Sweat not a lack of attention TheBigA, as I read all of your drivel, but none of it is correct. Van Halen made way-more money with Sammy, than they did with Dave;
and if Eddie hadn't made the misstake of firing him,...a lot more. Secondly, I Programmed A.O.R., so I done give a rat's about B-grade Country bands, such as Lone Star.

Journey's 2000 relese, Arival, with Steve Augeri, may be one of their best albums. Many are well a-tuned to that fact. Maybe I should ask Mr.Ed.

Hmmmmmmmmmm? Mr. Ed, people in Califonia don't want to read my posts.
So, why do you think that we want to read yours?

Scooter Lesley said:

Van Halen made way-more money with Sammy, than they did with Dave;

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My question to you is: Is it about the money they make, or the quality of their music? For Van Halen, you talk about the money. For Journey, you talk about the quality. Which is it?

The Journey fans know that the quality left when Steve Perry retired. When the driving force, the man responsible for the hits, leaves a band, they're left with an empty shell. If we judge Arrival by sales, then why didn't it sell well? They got some adult contemporary airplay with "All The Way," but their fans had moved on. Their longtime label, Columbia, gave up on them.

As you say, there's no shortage of product, so why should I put up with a karaoke band when there's better new music being made now?

Interesting discussion. I won't get into the lead singer replacement issue, but I will say that as much as people want to hear the new hits more often, I don't think you can say that hearing a song 20 times a day is something people "love". And what about the people who hate the song because of the overexposure? People listen to whatever station because they don't have much of a choice IF they choose only commercial radio as their main source of music.

Stations with "deep and wide" playlists aren't the answer either. Too diverse and you probably are going to lose people with "fringe" songs or just extra crap to fill in the gaps.

The answer is something in between IMO. I know CHR is going to always be repetitive but I personally think a lot of the high rollers could be in half in terms of airplay. And, I mentioned this in another thread, it's the other not-so-new music on any format that doesn't seem to get enough attention. Stations, particularly rock, oldies, AC and even alternative (as far as "classic alternative" tracks) kill songs to death. I was on a local station's Facebook page where a listener was complaining -- not about how repetitive the new songs were -- but how tired they were of hearing songs that have been in station's playlist since day one. Those non-current, non-recurrent songs need to be refreshed somewhat regularly.

Ratings don't show the entire picture. Not everyone can afford satellite or streaming in their cars. So they listen to a station that plays the music closest to what they like. That doesn't mean they're completely happy with that choice. Part of that comes from the Internet when they are in a position to do so. Younger listeners, my own children included, often find about a song through You Tube or a streaming station. That easy access to all kinds of music -- Dubstep comes to mind because it's actually pretty popular with teens today, but you won't many stations that play it -- makes it even harder to please listeners (particularly the younger you are). Stations are still successful, don't get me wrong. But there will likely never be any station today that can satiate the pallet of someone's overall tastes. More now than ever. That even goes for the older crowd. People on these boards in their 40s and 50s -- I'm sure a lot of them also use the Internet to hear what they really want to hear when they are in the position to do so.

Scooter Lesley said:

Journey's 2000 relese, Arival, with Steve Augeri, may be one of their best albums. Many are well a-tuned to that fact.

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I did a little research on this subject. You blame radio. Not everyone does. Here's an excerpt from a review of the album from an unbiased source:

The reason why it wasn’t rests largely on the shoulders of the band’s Columbia Records label, owned by Sony Music. A large part of the problem was the fan reaction in response to the band’s decision to continue without Steve Perry. There were a number of vocal fans at the time, Perry Purists, who believed that the band belonged to Steve Perry and that Journey should not continue with Augeri as Journey (A mistaken belief, as Journey had been initially founded around Neal Schon in 1975; Steve Perry wasn’t even a founding member of the band. Their first lead singer was actually Gregg Rollie). This belief extended, to a lesser extent, into the band’s more casual fan base, which seemed to accept this new lineup as a tribute band rather than the actual Journey. When playing in concert, the band discovered that much of the new material was going right over the audience’s heads. It appeared as though most of the older fans where coming only to hear Journey’s greatest hits. Perhaps in light of this, Sony Music decided not to market the band’s new album as well as they should have, and Arrival was released almost completely under the radar.

Journey clarification:
When I spoke to Neal Schon, back stage in 1999, his statement about firing the "Whiney" Steve Perry was rather gentle: "There was a Journey, before Steve Perry, and now there is a Journey after him. Schon, now sole owner of the band, since Gregg Rollie went solo, was referring to the two other frontmen/singers, that preceded Steve Perry: George Tickner, and Rob Fleshman. The latter of the two would later front The Vinnie Vincent Invasion on their debut LP. That show, that night, proved to me that Perry was replaceable! "Open Arms" was note for note complete, and Beee-lieveable!

After 8-years, in 2006, in mid tour, Augeri would have to resign, due to serious throat ailments. Jeff Scott Soto would finish the "Generations" tour.

Arnell Pinetta is their current frontman.