Westwood One adds new 24/7 Good Time Oldies format to replace Scott Shannon's TOC

firepoint525 said:

I actually like the Jack-FM business model, but not for the reasons that you might think. That oldies station that I voice-tracked over 20 years ago was basically the business model for a Jack-FM. We couldn't take requests; we "played what we wanted" (at least what MANAGEMENT wanted), so I never solicited requests. We couldn't play them, anyway, even if we wanted to. (I always felt bad about it when someone called long distance from out of town, even out of state, and all they succeeded in doing was running up their own phone bill.)

The Jack-FM stations are about the only ones out there that are intellectually honest with their listeners. Like I said, we were "playing what we wanted" and "not taking requests" 20+ years ago. The Jack-FM concept is just now catching up to that.

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So management wouldn't let you play anything they didn't approve? And this was over 20 years ago, on a small market station. Go figure. Which manager didn't want you to play it? The sexual harassment one or the one who chain smoked himself to death?

ok walters said:

No bragging - just pointing out that unless you have "walked a mile" in the managers shoes you haven't seen the whole picture. And you have admittedly not walked that mile. So with no management experience at any level, you are telling the managers how to do their jobs and are even calling us "corporate suits". I am sure you did a great job as you obviously have some passion for the business, but without management insight you are making blind statements.

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Okay, fine. Answer the questions that I have asked.

The GM for whom I was production director was probably the worst of them all. He was the perfectionist in the bunch. He would go ballistic if the least little thing went wrong.

The GM who was eventually fired by the owners was probably the most honest of the bunch. He had what even he jokingly called his "standard runoff statement." He was not specifically targeting anyone for dismissal (although he had to fire a few). He came from an engineering background. Most of the rest probably from sales. Hence their love of money. The woman was from a journalism background and probably knew next to nothing about broadcasting. I was at her station to try to learn sales (knew I would never make anything as a jock), but she just terminated me after about a week or so without ever teaching me anything. Her station was satellite oldies at the time.

I really don't believe that you, as a manager, make the final decision over what is played on your station. You leave that to your PD (and some of them that I knew were just as beleaguered as I was). You might make a GENERAL decision about the format. Otherwise you are doing the PD's job. The perfectionist GM indeed tried to do that. But even he didn't make the final decision about what we played over that automated oldies FM station. That was decided by Broadcast Supply West out of Seattle. Whatever they put on those reel-to-reel tapes, we played!

I never claimed to know everything that there was to know about a radio station, but I get the feeling that you are claiming to know more than you actually do. And that ain't cool.

firepoint525 said:

I called you a cheerleader, several times, and then cited evidence that you are.

I forgot one in my previous criticism of GMs:

They think that THEIR station is the absolute BEST one on the dial, and that everyone in town (even their entire listening area) must be absolute idiots not to just tune to THEIR station, and then rip off the knob.

"Corporate" stations do indeed want what little competition they still have left to disappear. You and others on here have denigrated Hippie Radio, while at the same time pointing out that you do not carry what I want. You have denigrated college stations and non-comms, all the while offering me absolutely NOTHING to compete with it. Your argument is "I have this big badass 100 KW signal that can be heard in seven states...blah blah blah..." but again offering me NOTHING of what I want. You make fun of the signals of smaller stations, but again, all you are doing is chest-thumping. You call my tastes "extreme" or whatever, but again your blowtorch signal does not play ANYTHING that I like, because you have VACATED that particular music format in what was supposedly "music city." If you carry country music on your blowtorch, you have nothing for me.

If I want the latest releases, I could probably find them at Wal-Mart. I can even find a few of my old faves discounted there. But yeah, if I want something specific, and you don't carry it, I and my $$$ (apparently the only argument that you money-grubbers understand) go elsewhere. Ernest Tubb's record shop is probably pretty cool and eclectic, but they are country. Again, insulting and denigrating my taste in music does NOT make me want to listen to your station.

Your attitude is just like the GMs that I have worked for, so you are probably about as "pleasant" to work for as they were.

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Let's cut to the chase. We agree that we do not play the music you want and have explained that we need to program to the masses and you are not in that group. I have never "made fun" of any signal - just pointed out just as you have repeatedly that those signals are not full market or are less desirable than a big signal. The biggest signals will take the most popular formats and the smaller signals then must decide whether to try and compete or do something less mainstream to try and develop a smaller niche audience, so that is where you find the huge playlists and less common formats.

We are never going to "make you want to listen" as that would require doing something that would be a changing what is the best use of the biggest signal. Kind of like McDonalds letting everyone custom order everything when it is really all about sales volume. You keep shopping at the "mom and pop" and we will keep aiming at the masses as we need to.

You called me a "cheerleader", but cited nothing. Industry people agreeing isn't cheerleading - "Wow Firepoint, you are on FIRE this morning" would be cheerleading.

ok walters said:

So management wouldn't let you play anything they didn't approve? And this was over 20 years ago, on a small market station. Go figure. Which manager didn't want you to play it? The sexual harassment one or the one who chain smoked himself to death?

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We voice-tracked our FM oldies station. Actually, it played a pretty cool mix, but about all I had to do was make sure that it was playing. It was the perfectionist manager's station.

The sexual harasser (country station, in this case) green-lighted a song on an indie label by a woman whose father owned a furniture store who was a heavy advertiser on that station. Otherwise, they never touched indies. Don't try to tell me that they don't worship money. They do!

firepoint525 said:

Okay, fine. Answer the questions that I have asked.

The GM for whom I was production director was probably the worst of them all. He was the perfectionist in the bunch. He would go ballistic if the least little thing went wrong.

The GM who was eventually fired by the owners was probably the most honest of the bunch. He had what even he jokingly called his "standard runoff statement." He was not specifically targeting anyone for dismissal (although he had to fire a few). He came from an engineering background. Most of the rest probably from sales. Hence their love of money. The woman was from a journalism background and probably knew next to nothing about broadcasting. I was at her station to try to learn sales (knew I would never make anything as a jock), but she just terminated me after about a week or so without ever teaching me anything. Her station was satellite oldies at the time.

I really don't believe that you, as a manager, make the final decision over what is played on your station. You leave that to your PD (and some of them that I knew were just as beleaguered as I was). You might make a GENERAL decision about the format. Otherwise you are doing the PD's job. The perfectionist GM indeed tried to do that. But even he didn't make the final decision about what we played over that automated oldies FM station. That was decided by Broadcast Supply West out of Seattle. Whatever they put on those reel-to-reel tapes, we played!

I never claimed to know everything that there was to know about a radio station, but I get the feeling that you are claiming to know more than you actually do. And that ain't cool.

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You haven't asked any questions about anything except me and my management style. Where you not the one who said you weren't a troll? Why are you not asking me about music/formats - isn't this a music forum? You are still railing about GMs from over 20 years ago - what does that have to do with this discussion?

You once again attacked GMs for their "love of money". I don't know a GM of any business that is successful without being concerned about money, so this helps evidence your lack of understanding that this is a for profit business first.

You know why Broadcast Supply West supplied the programming? Because that is what they did and management was smart enough to let programmers program and they worried about their "love of money" and getting more of it - you know, profit.

ok walters said:

Let's cut to the chase. We agree that we do not play the music you want and have explained that we need to program to the masses and you are not in that group. I have never "made fun" of any signal - just pointed out just as you have repeatedly that those signals are not full market or are less desirable than a big signal. The biggest signals will take the most popular formats and the smaller signals then must decide whether to try and compete or do something less mainstream to try and develop a smaller niche audience, so that is where you find the huge playlists and less common formats.
We are never going to "make you want to listen" as that would require doing something that would be a changing what is the best use of the biggest signal. Kind of like McDonalds letting everyone custom order everything when it is really all about sales volume. You keep shopping at the "mom and pop" and we will keep aiming at the masses as we need to.
You called me a "cheerleader", but cited nothing. Industry people agreeing isn't cheerleading - "Wow Firepoint, you are on FIRE this morning" would be cheerleading.

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It IS cheerleading if all you are doing is agreeing with David without bringing SOMETHING to the table. You copied his stats. It was 244 mil one day, then 224 mil the next. Then back to 244. So which is it? You copied his stats, and never responded to it when I questioned it. The population of the U.S. is now over 300 mil, so depending on which of your stats is correct, 56 mil or 76 mil NOT listening to radio. When I was in college ('80s), we were told that radio listening is nearly saturated. 98-99% of the population listens to radio. Your stats don't back that up. If anything, radio listening has dropped since then. And I don't have population stats, but I believe we are well OVER 300 mill now.

Since I don't like cheerleading, I really wish that I didn't have cheerleaders of my own, but it is what it is. I gather that Oldies76 is very passionate about his radio listening. He may actually want to put on a low-power station playing cool tuneage. I have no desire to do that. I just play my own tunes. I believe that he told me that he was in radio about when I was, on another thread.

If something from the '60s is too "old" to play now, then by all means SAY that. But don't say that it wasn't a hit when it was! Oldies 96.3 dropped the '60s a decade ago. But now we are seeing the same type of arguments about the '70s and even '80s tunes. Cumulus, as a "classic-hitter," played exactly ONE Abba song, "Dancing Queen." Even as a casual Abba fan, I know better than that.

ok walters said:

You once again attacked GMs for their "love of money". I don't know a GM of any business that is successful without being concerned about money, so this helps evidence your lack of understanding that this is a for profit business first.
You know why Broadcast Supply West supplied the programming? Because that is what they did and management was smart enough to let programmers program and they worried about their "love of money" and getting more of it - you know, profit.

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Okay, fine, don't answer my questions. But the perfectionist GM had his own wife doing spots for him. Why? Because (he said this himself) she was "free." What does that say about his love of money? By the way, he said that in her presence.

They worship money. No doubt about it. He was critical of a station in a neighboring town for "rocking" too hard. Until of course, he bought the station, that is.

firepoint525 said:

It IS cheerleading if all you are doing is agreeing with David without bringing SOMETHING to the table. You copied his stats. It was 244 mil one day, then 224 mil the next. Then back to 244. So which is it? You copied his stats, and never responded to it when I questioned it. The population of the U.S. is now over 300 mil, so depending on which of your stats is correct, 56 mil or 76 mil NOT listening to radio. When I was in college ('80s), we were told that radio listening is nearly saturated. 98-99% of the population listens to radio. Your stats don't back that up. If anything, radio listening has dropped since then. And I don't have population stats, but I believe we are well OVER 300 mill now.

Since I don't like cheerleading, I really wish that I didn't have cheerleaders of my own, but it is what it is. I gather that Oldies76 is very passionate about his radio listening. He may actually want to put on a low-power station playing cool tuneage. I have no desire to do that. I just play my own tunes. I believe that he told me that he was in radio about when I was, on another thread.

If something from the '60s is too "old" to play now, then by all means SAY that. But don't say that it wasn't a hit when it was! Oldies 96.3 dropped the '60s a decade ago. But now we are seeing the same type of arguments about the '70s and even '80s tunes. Cumulus, as a "classic-hitter," played exactly ONE Abba song, "Dancing Queen." Even as a casual Abba fan, I know better than that.

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No copying and pasting anything here. 92% of the US population over 12 years of age listens to radio every week and that is a commonly held fact. When you were in college, the internet, satellite radio, and personal listening devices didn't exist, so the percentage was a little higher but the population was smaller so it is essentially a wash.

Songs from the 60s are not too old to play - as long as you play the right ones. I know you love that response, but that is what it is.

firepoint525 said:

Okay, fine, don't answer my questions. But the perfectionist GM had his own wife doing spots for him. Why? Because (he said this himself) she was "free." What does that say about his love of money? By the way, he said that in her presence.

They worship money. No doubt about it. He was critical of a station in a neighboring town for "rocking" too hard. Until of course, he bought the station, that is.

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They may "love money" - who doesn't? But using a voice that is "free" as opposed to one that you have to pay for is just managing your situation, and as long as the free voice is adequate for the situation what is wrong with that?

People who don't like money are like timid salespeople. They raise skinny kids. Another post that has nothing to do with music, but who is counting at this point?

ok walters said:

They may "love money" - who doesn't? But using a voice that is "free" as opposed to one that you have to pay for is just managing your situation, and as long as the free voice is adequate for the situation what is wrong with that?
People who don't like money are like timid salespeople. They raise skinny kids. Another post that has nothing to do with music, but who is counting at this point?

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I didn't say that I "didn't like money." What I don't like is what it turns people into. Actually, I said that they "worship" money. Big difference between the two.

I actually WANTED to learn sales. But that woman that hired me at her station only took me on only one sales call before losing interest in me. I was not at that station to "jock" or play music or anything like that. It was a small station, so I knew that it would basically suck. But after yet another experience with a lying, cheating, stealing, money-grubbing GM, I soon lost interest in sales (at least radio ad sales) as well. (I should point out that I sought a sales position, not the other way around.) Since she sold the station anyway a couple of years later, she was probably doing me a favor. (She never filed I-9 paperwork on me, saving her some more $$$, but she was not the only one for whom that was true.)

At the station where I had been production director, I assisted the sales staff with creating some great spots. For a station of our size, with the limited technology of the time, and with my somewhat limited (at the time) knowledge of editing, I would say that we produced some great stuff. Even the perfectionist GM there supposedly bragged on me, but since he said that to his PD and not to me, his LACK of complaints were praise enough for me!

DavidEduardo said:

At every station I owned or managed, I approved every song. I bought my first station because I wanted to program, and at age 18 nobody was going to hire me as a PD, so I had to be the owner to get the job I wanted. From that time on, every station I managed was one I co-programmed with the PD in a team effort. We did music via a committee approach where we auditioned new songs, made rotation decisions and looked at whatever the research we had at hand showed.
None of these stations was in a market of less than 1 million. None of them were not # 1 overall or, at least, #1 in a major target like 18-49 Women.
As a manager, I discovered that it was a lot easier to sell a #1 station than a #10 one, so I spent my time on the product.
So your generalization about managers does not hold true. I knew quite a few managers during my career who were comparbly involved in programming, and generally quite skilled in team building and goal setting.

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Wouldn't you say that your situation was extremely unusual? You bought a station at 18? How many 18-year-olds do you know who could do that, at least WITHOUT their parents' money? I know of a station in Mississippi that was supposedly bought for some kid by his mother. If that is true, it is probably more of a "toy" to him, and he is just "playing radio."

It wouldn't be so hard to sell time on a #10 station if you also owned the top 9. With multiple corporate ownership, that is often the case.

You confused hardware vendor BSW with programming and automation supplier BPI.

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I remember the GM having me get on the phone to BSW to ask them why we hadn't received more music bed records from them. Since I was production director, I used those. So they not only supplied the music that we played, they also supplied our music beds that we used for spots. Since Seattle was 2000 miles from us (and two time-zones behind us), it made it pretty easy to get in touch with them after my board shift was over.

David, please find your way to the "Business of Radio" section. I'm really grasping for air, there!

DavidEduardo said:

I am going to stop there and address your "Top 4"
1. Radio stations are businesses. Their top goal is to make money. They can do nothing else, whether it is community work or charity or training of interns if they don't make money.
2. Narcissists are "people excessively concerned with personal appearance". Other than the old jokes about salesmen in plaid suits, this holds no water in my experience.
3. Radio is an entertainment service. Entertainers, and thus broadcasters, are ego driven. Ego makes us strive to be as good as we can and to win. In most situations, the proper amount of ego drive combined with business acumen is a very good thing.
3. The opposite of "perfect" is sloppy, imperfect, inferior. Why would one want defective products in their store?
The best PD I ever had came to me every week with about a dozen new ideas. I'd approve one or two. After many months of working together, he came to me, depressed, and said he though maybe I wanted him to resign as I did not approve many of his ideas. I explained that he was the listeners' advocate and I was the owners' advocate. Some of his ideas were too expensive. Some would require legal consultation or create borderline FCC rules issues. Others, I simply did not like. But at most stations, nobody was producing a couple of new ideas every few months, let alone every week. He understood that we were working as a team, and continued to bring loads of ideas, which I filtered. We went from last to #1 in 6 months (in what is now market #14) because I did not accept 80% to 90% of the ideas, and knew which ones to focus on.
Radio managers are not "elected" like politicians. They are dictators, with absolute power. And some of us do not suffer fools gladly.
Everything you find negative is either not factual ("narcissim") or actually a key part in being a good radio manager.
I'd expect total dedication from the person selected to be the steward of a valuable business. As to expecting others to put in a full measure of commitment, I see nothing wrong. As to the pay scale, every business works under the conditions of supply and demand. It is easier to find a board op than a truly good manager. No different than baseball players or musicians or artists... the ones with the special skills get rewarded.
They value profits over bankruptcy.
But you will also find that the truly talented at all levels end up, at most stations, getting along just fine with the manager.
Yes, with thousands of smaller owner-operator stations you have everything from brilliance to nutcases. But a staffer who delivers will generally get along just fine with a demanding manager who sets a high standard.
Whiners and complainers and Monday morning quarterbacks generally have to put up or shut up. They are divisive and a waste of time.

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The perfectionist CLAIMED to want ideas. I submitted some, most of which would not have cost him a penny. I don't know if any my coworkers ever submitted anything. The only thing this GM valued was high turnover. Because of the high turnover, most of the staff STILL sound like they are about 19. Most of us, once we get a little older, won't put up with crap like that. Either we move up, or we move out and move on. (By the way, a decade or so after I left, he got a hold of my resume and called me up about a news director position. Because of how I knew that he was, because of what that previous news manager had told me, and because I had moved away (and did NOT want to move back!), I turned him down flat!)

He made some changes right after I left. Not sure if this was due to his coming into ownership of the station (thus more control of the pocketbook), or if he was forced to by the aforementioned supplier discontinuing those reel-to-reel tapes that I mentioned earlier. At any rate, the station just had an "old" sound, up to that time. They don't broadcast online (hmm, STILL behind the times!), so I cannot listen to them now.

The sexual harassing GM once called a meeting in which he basically berated EVERYONE on the staff, with statements like, "if you don't like this, GET OUT! If you don't like that, GET OUT!!" It was all "GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT." (I TOLD you that they like high turnover!) He clearly did not know what the hell he was doing. He had been everything from a shoe salesman to a sporting goods store owner to a street preacher. I later found out that his daddy had owned the first station that he had ever worked for. Silver spoon, indeed. Even if I had survived all this b.s., I would not have had a job there a year later, because they went through yet another round of ownership, management, and format changes.