FM Pirate Busted in Ocala

So the best argument that there is against having a state law is that the state lawmakers are corrupt? Wow. Once again, if pirates are not a factor to a licensed broadcaster, why was there even an effort made to get a state law? Why not just use the FCC rules and enforcement? Because warnings are obviously not enough of a deterrent. Cedric states that warnings were standard procedure for years - why not set it up and run it until if/when you get warned? No risk - it is just a warning and you can take the rig somewhere else and do it again. Then again, if the Sheriff shows up with the feds and arrests you on a felony charge it is a different risk factor altogether. Fair enough?

Think these guys will do this again now? Think they would if all they got was a warning?

Do you slow down when you go through a work zone where the fine doubles? Just sayin'.

ok walters said:

So the best argument that there is against having a state law is that the state lawmakers are corrupt?

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No, the best argument against this particular state law is that it's far too draconian to fit the crime. It was lobbied to a bunch of lawmakers who don't know the difference and without any input whatsoever from anyone who didn't have a dog in the hunt.

A second reason is that there is a federal law to cover this activity and haven't we recently been told (in the immigration discussions) that federal rules are supreme and the state can't enforce federal rules if the feds don't enforce them?

This Florida law is as ridiculous and draconian as the DRMA is on the federal level.

So the best reason is the lawmakers are clueless and will do whatever the lobbyists tell them to do? Really? Still doesn't answer the question of why the FAB lobbyists felt strongly enough to spend time and money to pass a law that you claim is unnecessary. Why not just get the feds to enforce the federal laws? Because the local problem in some states is bigger than in others and apparently the enforcement is severely lacking. As Cedric said earlier - for years the enforcement was nothing but a bunch of warnings.

As far as federal law trumping state law - there sure is a lot of legal weed smoking going on in California, Arizona, and many other states. Last time I checked, marijuana was illegal according to all federal laws, so how can the states make it legal? It sure looks like that is what happened. Things that make you go hmmmmm...

ok walters said:

As Cedric said earlier - for years the enforcement was nothing but a bunch of warnings.

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Whoa whoa whoa, I think you've misinterpreted what I was saying. I sited two different instances where the Feds performed raids after sending written warnings that were blatantly ignored. In those cases, I don't have that much compassion for the pirates. They knew what was coming, and continued to break the law (protest). Now in the case of the South St. Pete pirate I mentioned, a warning was given and operation ceased without the need for anymore intervention. Why send a small army of militarized police, when a short letter will suffice? Which one do you think costs the taxpayer more? My point is (and was) that many times all that's needed is a simple warning. It costs less, and someone who meant absolutely no harm will be spared imprisonment.

ok walters said:

So the best reason is the lawmakers are clueless and will do whatever the lobbyists tell them to do? Really? Still doesn't answer the question of why the FAB lobbyists felt strongly enough to spend time and money to pass a law that you claim is unnecessary.

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I've seen with my own two eyes how lobbyists work their magic. Yes, you nailed it. Clueless lawmakers far too often do what the lobbyists ask them to do because there is no reasonable info available from the other side. I refer you back to the DRMA at the federal level. It works the same.

Why did the FAB push for it? Who knows. Maybe that bunch community servants can explain their crap to you in a way that makes sense. I've just never heard a good explanation.

As far as the nonsense regarding medical marijuana, the feds could shut that down in a heartbeat if they chose to do so. Federal law takes precedence.

So we have a war on drugs, with marijuana being a huge part of it, that cost billions per year, yet the feds are letting the states legalize weed? They can shut it down in a heartbeat but they don't, yet they spend billions chasing drug users when that is right in their face? Am I understanding you correctly?

I am sure there was no "militarized' police raid - they were pirate radio guys, not gang members. A FCC rep, and a squad car or two to haul them in.

So the answer is no one knows why a lobbying group spent time and money to pass a law through the clueless legislature. Just one of those mysteries of the world I guess.

You're beginning to see the light although I think it's a shame that no one seems to have pictures of the raid to show us all. The Stasi no longer shows up to confiscate stuff unless armed to the teeth and in full riot gear. I don't see why this raid should be an exception.

I am not "seeing the light" - I am trying to understand your take on things. I highly doubt there was any riot gear involved - just more of your "the government are all idiots" take on things. The legislature can be led anyway the lobbyists want like lemmings, and now the Sheriff is shutting down a radio station and making an arrest of a DJ in "full riot gear" and "armed to the teeth". I guess that is how it has to happen to make it ridiculous as you want it to be.

There is liitle doubt that these guys ignored an initial FCC warning so whatever happens to them they asked for it. That trailer pictured does look like a gang hideout now that you mention it. :

Here is a short video of how the FCC handles a pirate. Very decent and the station shut down.
http://kaosradioaustin.org/node/32295

I heard about the raid just after it happened. Not to condemn or defend this one, but they have been active in other "unlicensed" venture(s) for a very long time. If you search Marion County zoning permits, you'll find a PDF with minutes from a hearing in which they applied for a waiver for the tower (denied). And in the minutes, there's a reference here to "WJRN" which is surely links back in my mind to the (now defunct) 103.3 MHz "Radio Maranatha" in nearby Belleview, which I've heard on several occasions when passing through the area. Archival history of it is of course on my page:

https://sites.google.com/site/floridadxn/florida-low-power-radio-stations

The video is interesting but irrelevant. No seizure of equipment. No huge fines. No arrest on a third degree felony. And the FCC was acting as the FCC always did in the past in these situations. If anything, this proves just how insane the Florida law is.

Apparently it isn't as "draconian" or "insane" as you claim. There are still pirate stations all over Florida, so the threat of a felony charge isn't even enough to stop them. Since a felony charge won't stop them, it is quite obvious how little effect the FCC regs have with warnings and fines, but nothing criminal. So doing things "as the FCC always did in the past" isn't enough in some states, with Florida being one of them.

What a BS response. The fact that you can still find the occasional unlicensed operation if you go looking for it doesn't mean the law is proportional to the crime. And a harsh penalty doesn't always act as a deterrent. Florida has a death penalty and that doesn't keep some people from killing others. Yes, the Florida law is both Draconian and insane when considering the severity of the crime.

More factors have to be looked at before determining the penalty. The guys in Texas handled their situation quite correctly and their response was appropriate for the situation. That doesn't mean things won't get worse for the unlicensed operator if he continues to flaunt the law in the future.

What is the output power of the transmitter? 5 watts or 1,000?
Does it interfere with a listenable signal from a licensed operation? Listenable being the operative word here.
Is the transmitter overmodulated to the point that it interferes with adjacent frequencies?
Is the transmitter somehow interfering with any police, fire, air control and EMS operations?

This list could go on and on with things that actually matter a LOT more than whether an operation is unlicensed when trying to determine a penalty. What the FAB-instigated Florida law seems to want to do is inflict the penalty for bank robbery on the kid who stole a loaf of bread from Winn-Dixie because he was hungry.

Another question arising here is something that any contract lawyer in the state can advise you on. It's a little concept called "right to cure." This is a thoroughly-entrenched concept in law, if not in the licensing of various operations, but might be argued to advantage by an unlicensed operator. It is completely inapplicable in average criminal law because a thief can't go back in time and stop robbing the 7-eleven he hit last night. But an unlicensed operator can, most assuredly, turn off a transmitter. I don't understand the need, in 99 percent of the cases, to remove that right to cure. For God's sake, man, even the EPA allows violators a certain specified amount of time to clean up the messes they've made.

In any organization, it always seems to be five percent of the membership who do all the work. It is apparent that these active members of the FAB are better suited to positions on local Homeowners Association boards where they can satisfy their need to control things by telling homeowners what kind of flowers they can plant in their own front yards.

SarasotaJim said:

The video is interesting but irrelevant. No seizure of equipment. No huge fines. No arrest on a third degree felony. And the FCC was acting as the FCC always did in the past in these situations. If anything, this proves just how insane the Florida law is.

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That was my point SJ.

ok walters said:

Apparently it isn't as "draconian" or "insane" as you claim. There are still pirate stations all over Florida, so the threat of a felony charge isn't even enough to stop them. Since a felony charge won't stop them, it is quite obvious how little effect the FCC regs have with warnings and fines, but nothing criminal. So doing things "as the FCC always did in the past" isn't enough in some states, with Florida being one of them.

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I am will to bet that many 'pirate" operators are unaware about the 3rd degree felony.

druidhillsradio said:

ok walters said:

Apparently it isn't as "draconian" or "insane" as you claim. There are still pirate stations all over Florida, so the threat of a felony charge isn't even enough to stop them. Since a felony charge won't stop them, it is quite obvious how little effect the FCC regs have with warnings and fines, but nothing criminal. So doing things "as the FCC always did in the past" isn't enough in some states, with Florida being one of them.

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I am will to bet that many 'pirate" operators are unaware about the 3rd degree felony.

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Maybe not, but one or two arrests and prosecutions in the news like this one and they will be aware.

Now you are trying top compare the deterrent affect of the death penalty for murder to a pirate station who obviously ignored a FCC warning and now faces more serious felony level state charges. Of course the death penalty doesn't deter everyone as murder is usually a crime of passion, but it would have more effect if there wasn't an average 20 year wait for the execution. What are the crime rates in countries where your hand is cut off for theft? Imagine that - there is almost no theft. A penalty that is administered quickly and without exception is far more of a deterrent than what we call the death penalty in Florida. There have been thousands of homicides in Florida over the last ten years, but only a handful of executions have taken place. Is the death penalty really a deterrent when it is so rarely used? Of course not - there is little chance that you will be executed in Florida so there is really almost no deterrent from it.

Make a example out of someone and the rest of the population will get the message. The occassional execution of a murderer in Florida after a 20 year wait doesn't make much of an example out of anyone.

Check this map out. http://www.fcc.gov/maps/fcc-enforcement-actions-against-pirate-radio-location

Florida leads the nation in pirate radio enforcement actions by the FCC over the last ten years with 333, followed by New York with 331 and then California with 140. No other state has more than 45. Out of 333 enforcement actions, there were 226 NOUO's and 62 NAL's and only 38 forfeiture orders. So 333 pirates were "enforced" but only 38 were actually fined. With this many pirates and that few fines, I would compare FCC enforcement actions to the death penalty. Lots of violations but there isn't much punishment. This chart does clearly evidence that the problem is far more severe in a few states, which happen to be the ones who have a state law to augment the FCC efforts. It is clearly evidenced in the chart that without state law in this case, there is little deterrent at all - just a warning and then your "right to cure" the situation, and little chance of a monetary penalty. What would there be to be worried about?

There were only 79 fines issued by the FCC for pirate radio violations nationwide from 2003 to today - a period of ten years. 38 of those fines were in Florida, or about half of the nationwide total. The average fine was about $11K - is that enough of a punishment when only 10% of the violators are fined at all? Is there a bigger problem in Florida than everywhere else? Think we need a state law now?

As with a lot of your arguments, I'm not completely sure what point it is that you are trying to make. Who wouldn't suspect that Florida would be one of the top three states in violations since it's in the top three in population.

The state obviously missing on your list is the second most populous in the nation, Texas. And all who have viewed the posted video have seen how humanely violations are handled there while still being effective.

You also seem to favor making an example out of someone rather than resolving the situation. Allow me to quote: "Make a example out of someone and the rest of the population will get the message." But you then go on to quote data proving that your brand of punishment isn't working.

You have informed us all that: "This chart does clearly evidence that the problem is far more severe in a few states, which happen to be the ones who have a state law to augment the FCC efforts. It is clearly evidenced in the chart that without state law in this case, there is little deterrent at all - just a warning and then your "right to cure" the situation, and little chance of a monetary penalty."

With the evidence presented by Texas it might also be argued that the chart is evidence that draconian state laws are an abject failure because, where the three states where they have been tried, the pirate situation is the worst in the country.

I actually showed why the effort was made to get additional penalties in the areas where the problem is extreme and not responding to federal efforts. The Florida law hasn't been enforced very often at all, and there is no record of any convictions or jail time at all in either of the other two states that have such laws, so there is no track record to say "your way doesn't work". Start enforcing the law and then you can make such a determination. Despite this lack of enforcement, the number of pirate station enforcements in Florida has dropped 25% from pre-Florida law periods. Why that is can be debated, but it has dropped none the less.

What is painfully obvious is the FCC efforts are severely lacking any bite. How many of the few fines that are issued are actually collected? Almost none - how much can the FCC do except withhold a license that the pirate never had anyway? I am sure you will say the Justice Department will collect, but sorry to say that rarely ever happens. The state law isn't enforced and the FCC has a hard time collecting the fine, but somehow you can still deduce that the state law isn't necessary.

You and I disagree on the fact that punishment is a deterrent, and in most cases the only deterrent. There could be a long debate about the fact that crime rates have spiked over the last few generations as much of the bite of our judicial system has been neutered right out of it. How many times do you hear about the murderer who had many felony arrests yet was still on the street? That didn't happen fifty years ago when that guy was in prison for good on the first or second felony. And to use Texas as an example is pretty funny. Texas leads the nation in executions, and has executed more than four times as many people as the next state on the list. The only reason there isn't a pirate radio law like ours in Texas is that there is no glaring problem as there is in Florida, New York, and California.