• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

FM Pirate Busted in Ocala

ok walters said:
jmtillery said:
ok walters said:
They are breaking the law, and anyone who has a legally licensed facility should be glad they are enforcing these laws. Bust them and auction off their "state of the art" equipment.

While technically you are correct in that a statutory law was violated, keep in mind why laws exist in the first place. Laws or supposed to be created to protect the public and to protect individual rights. In the case of an illegal radio station operation, while I am not advocating such activity, I fail to see where the public has been harmed or how anyone's right have been violated as a result of such illegal radio station operation. In my opinion, it certainly does not warrant felony status as this is hardly a major criminal offense.

Fail to see where someone's rights have been violated? Wow. The FAB sure thought it was enough of any issue to spend time and money to get legislation passed making it a felony - what does that tell you? I would bet if you owned a station near that pirate and found that they were taking even one dollar of ad revenue from you your view would change fast. What would happen if there was no enforcement and pirates sprung up all over? There would be interference issues, more sharing of existing ad revenue, format duplication hurting listenership, etc... Think any legitimate broadcasters rights would be violated then? Think the value of thier station would drop any due to increased competiton and lower revenues? If you can get away with this type of operation with little or no consequence, why bother getting a license? This type of bust is all that keeps that from happening - a clear message that there are consequences to running a pirate. Confiscation of equipment is not enough of a deterent - give it some bite and make the punishment real.

First of all I’ll say I certainly hope if you are ever arrested and charged with a criminal offense, that someone who thinks the way you do is not a member of your jury as you would be found guilty before the trial begins. With that, I’ll address your comments one at a time.

I’ll begin with your comment about the FAB. As you know the Florida Association of Broadcasters is political lobbying group. Lobbyist are not necessarily concerned with the rights of the general public so much as it is towards special interest. In this case, the FAB will do whatever its paying members demand in order to keep the paying members happy. This gives organizations a reason to “exist” when there are issues, such as pirate operators, to deal with. And as long as the organization is needed, said organization will also continue to need funding which comes from its member stations and other sources with said funding being used for the “common good” of the “public”. So, again, how has any individual rights been violated and how has any individual within the general public been harmed?

Even without any such legislation, there were already measures in place to deal with pirate radio operators. Either way, this is still a state law that is regulating and criminalizing a federal administrative offense. There is a huge difference between a criminal offense and an administrative sanction.

As for me owning a radio station that is either on or near a frequency used by a pirate, it would not bother me at all because most pirates are smart enough to realize that by operating too close to another licensed facility’s frequencies will compromise their own signal and coverage objectives. If, in fact, my own signal was being compromised, of course I would want the pirate gone. I would not, however, want the pirate arrested and charged with a felony offense. I’m not suggesting there should be no enforcement. As I have stated above, the FCC has always had measures in place to enforce unlicensed “pirate” activity.

As for ad sharing revenue, that is just ludicrous. Most pirates only cover a very small fractional service area covered by a licensed facility. The overwhelming majority of the pirate advertisers have ad budgets so small they are never considered by a licensed facility as an advertising source. There is also no way a pirate station’s existence will devalue a licensed facility in any amount.

As for the pirate in question from rural Summerfield, and it was Summerfield and not Ocala, there are NO licensed facilities in that area other than distant signals from Ocala, Leesburg and WVLG from the Villages which is an AM station. The pirate was operating on 97.7 FM. The nearest FM Signal is WSKY 97.3 which has no marketable signal in Summerfield, nor has Entercom expressed any interest in targeting any potential advertisers from that area, nor was the pirate’s 97.7 strong enough to make any impact within the WSKY service contour area which is Ocala to the North of Summerfield by about 20-miles. The pirate station could not be heard outside of maybe a 10-miles radius of its Summerfield tower location.
 
Many, if not most 'pirates' operate without commercials.
Perhaps they would not exist if the FCC would license LPFM stations to individuals rather than to non-profit organizations.
At the very least, the license holder should provide 'local' progamming from a 'local' studio.
They should not be permitted to import programming from elsewhere.
 
frankberry said:
Many, if not most 'pirates' operate without commercials.
Perhaps they would not exist if the FCC would license LPFM stations to individuals rather than to non-profit organizations.
At the very least, the license holder should provide 'local' progamming from a 'local' studio.
They should not be permitted to import programming from elsewhere.

More LPFM is not the answer for obvious reasons. First and foremost, there is not enough spectrum available to allow everyone and their brother who wants to "play radio" an LPFM license. Even if more LPFM licenses were granted, there will still be pirate operators somewhere. It isn't going away.

Had the NAB not struck down the originally proposed commercially licensed LP1000 (1,000 watts ERP @ 180 feet), I, personally, would be more in favor and supportive of LPFM. As the rules stand now with LP100 limited to 100 watts ERP at 100 feet and limited to a NCE-FM status, LPFM is nothing more than a vast wasteland of FM spectrum. With very rare exceptions, LPFM has done nothing more than to saturate the FM band with more unneeded and unnecessary FM stations that serve no purpose other than to be an avocation for the LPFM owners who are displaced radio jocks who want to play radio with their station.

I realize the LPFM proponents will rake me over the coals for my opinion on LPFM, claiming how much of a pubic service LPFM provides to the community it serves and so on, etc. That still doesn't change my opinion, so let the comments fly.
 
There seems to be enough spectrum for the big boys to hog every available FM frequency for lots of unnecessary Translators.
Perhaps the little guys who want to 'play radio' might just be able to put these frequencies to better use by providing some actual LOCAL content.
 
My point is more LPFM stations will not deter illegal pirate radio from existing. And by rewarding a "would be" pirate operator with an LPFM license sends the wrong message to these operators. I've listened to many LPFMs that did nothing more than play music and did nothing meaningful in the form of actual local content. As I said, it's a waste of valuable FM spectrum that is saturating the FM band with more FM congestion. If the LPFM operators were actually allowed to operate with higher power such as 1,000 watts, and also operate as a commercial entity, then I support the idea of community radio. As the rules stand now, LPFM is useless. And you can thank the National Association of Broadcasters and its lobbying efforts for placing these restrictions on LPFM.
 
jmtillery said:
ok walters said:
jmtillery said:
ok walters said:
They are breaking the law, and anyone who has a legally licensed facility should be glad they are enforcing these laws. Bust them and auction off their "state of the art" equipment.

While technically you are correct in that a statutory law was violated, keep in mind why laws exist in the first place. Laws or supposed to be created to protect the public and to protect individual rights. In the case of an illegal radio station operation, while I am not advocating such activity, I fail to see where the public has been harmed or how anyone's right have been violated as a result of such illegal radio station operation. In my opinion, it certainly does not warrant felony status as this is hardly a major criminal offense.

Fail to see where someone's rights have been violated? Wow. The FAB sure thought it was enough of any issue to spend time and money to get legislation passed making it a felony - what does that tell you? I would bet if you owned a station near that pirate and found that they were taking even one dollar of ad revenue from you your view would change fast. What would happen if there was no enforcement and pirates sprung up all over? There would be interference issues, more sharing of existing ad revenue, format duplication hurting listenership, etc... Think any legitimate broadcasters rights would be violated then? Think the value of thier station would drop any due to increased competiton and lower revenues? If you can get away with this type of operation with little or no consequence, why bother getting a license? This type of bust is all that keeps that from happening - a clear message that there are consequences to running a pirate. Confiscation of equipment is not enough of a deterent - give it some bite and make the punishment real.

First of all I’ll say I certainly hope if you are ever arrested and charged with a criminal offense, that someone who thinks the way you do is not a member of your jury as you would be found guilty before the trial begins. With that, I’ll address your comments one at a time.

I’ll begin with your comment about the FAB. As you know the Florida Association of Broadcasters is political lobbying group. Lobbyist are not necessarily concerned with the rights of the general public so much as it is towards special interest. In this case, the FAB will do whatever its paying members demand in order to keep the paying members happy. This gives organizations a reason to “exist” when there are issues, such as pirate operators, to deal with. And as long as the organization is needed, said organization will also continue to need funding which comes from its member stations and other sources with said funding being used for the “common good” of the “public”. So, again, how has any individual rights been violated and how has any individual within the general public been harmed?

Even without any such legislation, there were already measures in place to deal with pirate radio operators. Either way, this is still a state law that is regulating and criminalizing a federal administrative offense. There is a huge difference between a criminal offense and an administrative sanction.

As for me owning a radio station that is either on or near a frequency used by a pirate, it would not bother me at all because most pirates are smart enough to realize that by operating too close to another licensed facility’s frequencies will compromise their own signal and coverage objectives. If, in fact, my own signal was being compromised, of course I would want the pirate gone. I would not, however, want the pirate arrested and charged with a felony offense. I’m not suggesting there should be no enforcement. As I have stated above, the FCC has always had measures in place to enforce unlicensed “pirate” activity.

As for ad sharing revenue, that is just ludicrous. Most pirates only cover a very small fractional service area covered by a licensed facility. The overwhelming majority of the pirate advertisers have ad budgets so small they are never considered by a licensed facility as an advertising source. There is also no way a pirate station’s existence will devalue a licensed facility in any amount.

As for the pirate in question from rural Summerfield, and it was Summerfield and not Ocala, there are NO licensed facilities in that area other than distant signals from Ocala, Leesburg and WVLG from the Villages which is an AM station. The pirate was operating on 97.7 FM. The nearest FM Signal is WSKY 97.3 which has no marketable signal in Summerfield, nor has Entercom expressed any interest in targeting any potential advertisers from that area, nor was the pirate’s 97.7 strong enough to make any impact within the WSKY service contour area which is Ocala to the North of Summerfield by about 20-miles. The pirate station could not be heard outside of maybe a 10-miles radius of its Summerfield tower location.

"So, again, how has any individual rights been violated and how has any individual within the general public been harmed?"

A legitimately licensed station owner is an "individual within the general public" so yes someone is harmed by an illegal operation. How much harm is what is debatable. If there was no harm to anyone, why would the FCC even enforce it?

You have basically condoned this pirate station by breaking down the fact that based on his frequency of choice and location that no one could have been harmed. That is your opinion and nothing else. It was obviously someone else's opinion that they were being harmed and the station was reported. It was then the FCC's opinion that enforcement action was needed, and it was then the police/States Attorney's call as to if they are criminally charged. All of those things happened. If no one was being harmed they would still be there.

I understand that ad revenue may have been small, but there was revenue being made if the article is correct. You have been around longer than most of us and have seen every kind of operation there is no doubt - you ever seen one that $1000 per month in lost revenue would affect? Of course you have.

The FAB is a lobbying group, but the law has to have some merit to get past the House and Senate and the Governor's desk. Let's look at it this way - who is harmed by the law? Illegal pirate radio station operators and no one else. If the law is in fact overkill, in this case it should just serve as an additional deterrent in an area known for an abundance of pirate activity. Kind of like doubling the speeding fines in a work zone, don't you think? Ramp up the penalties where the problem is worst.

You can justify it anyway you want and call the criminalization overkill, but that is what the law is and these guys chose of their own free will to violate it. I guess I am a little more conservative than most - if our judicial system actually enforced our laws and didn't give 20 chances to everyone, we would have less problems overall.

Good thread.
 
"First of all I’ll say I certainly hope if you are ever arrested and charged with a criminal offense, that someone who thinks the way you do is not a member of your jury as you would be found guilty before the trial begins. With that, I’ll address your comments one at a time."

How does my post makes you come to that conclusion? Because I want them punished if they are guilty? It also takes the whole jury to agree for a conviction in almost all cases, so how could one jury member insure that someone is found guilty? They can't.

You list "Esquire" as one of your many titles and qualifications - do you practice law? I would bet your would be a defense attorney based on your views.
 
STOP STOP STOP.
There is a very simple solution: TWO, count them, TWO real world test cases actually exist.
They really do: Italy and New Zealand. I am not making this up.
I want both or all of you to go and find out what is happening in those two countries and report back when you have some useful information to share.
Besides, I want to learn more about their free market experiments and am too lazy to research it myself.
You have to realize this will all be a moot point when everyone has web radio in their dashboards.

Sorry OKW, but WLBE's antenna field will eventually be worth more as a parking lot (re: 1290, Ocala).
 
Maybe the way to go after those pirates that actually sell advertising and have income is to have the IRS, instead of the FCC go after them. After all, it wasn't the FBI that got Capone, it was the IRS.
 
I'm not sure the FCC should be involved in low-power operations. I'm not convinced that the constitution gives the federal government authority over any communication that is limited solely within the borders of a given state.
 
The FAB is a lobbying group, but the law has to have some merit to get past the House and Senate and the Governor's desk.

At the risk of getting this thread sent to TIO, does the person who wrote this have any idea how the Florida Legislature works? Rated most corrupt in the nation by at least one objective source. Basically, if you have enough money, you can buy laws and turn law enforcement into your own private police force. You can also disempower your employees in those sorts of disputes ... why do you think there's no talk in Florida of getting rid of noncompetes for broadcasters as has been done in other states? No, the law needs no merit... only some vague characterization as being "pro-business" and more importantly, money in the right places. I'm shocked at the level of naiveté, assuming that's what it is, and not disingenuousness.
 
ok walters said:
jmtillery said:
ok walters said:
jmtillery said:
ok walters said:
They are breaking the law, and anyone who has a legally licensed facility should be glad they are enforcing these laws. Bust them and auction off their "state of the art" equipment.

While technically you are correct in that a statutory law was violated, keep in mind why laws exist in the first place. Laws or supposed to be created to protect the public and to protect individual rights. In the case of an illegal radio station operation, while I am not advocating such activity, I fail to see where the public has been harmed or how anyone's right have been violated as a result of such illegal radio station operation. In my opinion, it certainly does not warrant felony status as this is hardly a major criminal offense.

Fail to see where someone's rights have been violated? Wow. The FAB sure thought it was enough of any issue to spend time and money to get legislation passed making it a felony - what does that tell you? I would bet if you owned a station near that pirate and found that they were taking even one dollar of ad revenue from you your view would change fast. What would happen if there was no enforcement and pirates sprung up all over? There would be interference issues, more sharing of existing ad revenue, format duplication hurting listenership, etc... Think any legitimate broadcasters rights would be violated then? Think the value of thier station would drop any due to increased competiton and lower revenues? If you can get away with this type of operation with little or no consequence, why bother getting a license? This type of bust is all that keeps that from happening - a clear message that there are consequences to running a pirate. Confiscation of equipment is not enough of a deterent - give it some bite and make the punishment real.

First of all I’ll say I certainly hope if you are ever arrested and charged with a criminal offense, that someone who thinks the way you do is not a member of your jury as you would be found guilty before the trial begins. With that, I’ll address your comments one at a time.

I’ll begin with your comment about the FAB. As you know the Florida Association of Broadcasters is political lobbying group. Lobbyist are not necessarily concerned with the rights of the general public so much as it is towards special interest. In this case, the FAB will do whatever its paying members demand in order to keep the paying members happy. This gives organizations a reason to “exist” when there are issues, such as pirate operators, to deal with. And as long as the organization is needed, said organization will also continue to need funding which comes from its member stations and other sources with said funding being used for the “common good” of the “public”. So, again, how has any individual rights been violated and how has any individual within the general public been harmed?

Even without any such legislation, there were already measures in place to deal with pirate radio operators. Either way, this is still a state law that is regulating and criminalizing a federal administrative offense. There is a huge difference between a criminal offense and an administrative sanction.

As for me owning a radio station that is either on or near a frequency used by a pirate, it would not bother me at all because most pirates are smart enough to realize that by operating too close to another licensed facility’s frequencies will compromise their own signal and coverage objectives. If, in fact, my own signal was being compromised, of course I would want the pirate gone. I would not, however, want the pirate arrested and charged with a felony offense. I’m not suggesting there should be no enforcement. As I have stated above, the FCC has always had measures in place to enforce unlicensed “pirate” activity.

As for ad sharing revenue, that is just ludicrous. Most pirates only cover a very small fractional service area covered by a licensed facility. The overwhelming majority of the pirate advertisers have ad budgets so small they are never considered by a licensed facility as an advertising source. There is also no way a pirate station’s existence will devalue a licensed facility in any amount.

As for the pirate in question from rural Summerfield, and it was Summerfield and not Ocala, there are NO licensed facilities in that area other than distant signals from Ocala, Leesburg and WVLG from the Villages which is an AM station. The pirate was operating on 97.7 FM. The nearest FM Signal is WSKY 97.3 which has no marketable signal in Summerfield, nor has Entercom expressed any interest in targeting any potential advertisers from that area, nor was the pirate’s 97.7 strong enough to make any impact within the WSKY service contour area which is Ocala to the North of Summerfield by about 20-miles. The pirate station could not be heard outside of maybe a 10-miles radius of its Summerfield tower location.

"So, again, how has any individual rights been violated and how has any individual within the general public been harmed?"

A legitimately licensed station owner is an "individual within the general public" so yes someone is harmed by an illegal operation. How much harm is what is debatable. If there was no harm to anyone, why would the FCC even enforce it?

You have basically condoned this pirate station by breaking down the fact that based on his frequency of choice and location that no one could have been harmed. That is your opinion and nothing else. It was obviously someone else's opinion that they were being harmed and the station was reported. It was then the FCC's opinion that enforcement action was needed, and it was then the police/States Attorney's call as to if they are criminally charged. All of those things happened. If no one was being harmed they would still be there.

I understand that ad revenue may have been small, but there was revenue being made if the article is correct. You have been around longer than most of us and have seen every kind of operation there is no doubt - you ever seen one that $1000 per month in lost revenue would affect? Of course you have.

The FAB is a lobbying group, but the law has to have some merit to get past the House and Senate and the Governor's desk. Let's look at it this way - who is harmed by the law? Illegal pirate radio station operators and no one else. If the law is in fact overkill, in this case it should just serve as an additional deterrent in an area known for an abundance of pirate activity. Kind of like doubling the speeding fines in a work zone, don't you think? Ramp up the penalties where the problem is worst.

You can justify it anyway you want and call the criminalization overkill, but that is what the law is and these guys chose of their own free will to violate it. I guess I am a little more conservative than most - if our judicial system actually enforced our laws and didn't give 20 chances to everyone, we would have less problems overall.

Good thread.

You are assuming too much. By the way you are presenting your argument, you have assumed that I believe there should no enforcement nor any sanctions towards unlicensed pirate operators. When and where did I state that I felt it was perfectly okay for a pirate operator to infringe upon a legitimate licensed broadcaster?! I didn't! What I did say is that unlicensed activity does not warrant felony status and I further stated that the state has no jurisdiction enforcing a federal matter. The state does not regulate the broadcast airwaves. The FCC does. When you apply for a radio, wireless or television license, you file an application with the Federal Communications Commission. The key word is FEDERAL; not state. You don't file any paperwork with any state agency. Hence, the state has absolutely no jurisdiction over a federal license or a federal matter or anything having to do with any CFR (Code of Federal Regulation). I'm quite sure this state law can be challenged. However, that wont happen unless the attorneys involved feel that by doing so it will either a) make a bigger name for themselves; or, b) there is money to be made in challenging the law. If neither exist, then chances are no one will challenge the law.

As for the state legislature enacting the law, we both know that the legislators are comprised of elected officials. The more votes they get, the better chance they will be re-elected. If the house and senate members believe by enacting such a ludicrous legislation into law will result in more votes, then, of course, they will pass the Bill in both sides of the house. We both know how politics works.

I agree this a good thread. Whether you are serious in your views or simply playing devil's advocate, it certainly is causing me to give this matter a great deal of thought.
 
ThatGuyOnTheRadio said:
Yup, time to move this to TIO. Or... ya know, the North Florida board.

It should have been on the North Florida board from the beginning. As for TIO, this thread is on topic and, in my opinion, is fine in a regular thread.
 
Pirate stations get a warning (NOUO) before other actions. When the FCC visited them the first time, they most likely left a NOUO if no one was home. The owners chose to ignore it.
 
jmtillery said:
ThatGuyOnTheRadio said:
Yup, time to move this to TIO. Or... ya know, the North Florida board.

It should have been on the North Florida board from the beginning. As for TIO, this thread is on topic and, in my opinion, is fine in a regular thread.

Hey, I took heat from the Fort Myers folks who posted here and changed my tune. Given the fact that nothing...and I mean nothing is happening in Tampa Bay radio worth speaking of, feel free to continue here. Truthfully, this thread has been one of the more interesting ones here of late.
 
After reading through all 4 pages, it's obvious that a lot of people just post without reading the information that's already been shared....

@ok walters... before 2004 it was standard to issue a warning to "pirates" operating in the state of Florida before kicking in their door and hauling them off in cuffs. See 102.1 Party Pirate, 87x, etc. All of these pirates were issued warnings from the feds, and chose to thumb their noses at them. There are also many examples of pirates here in St. Pete who received warnings and shut down without any further action. Warnings were generally issued in the case that someone wasn't aware that they were breaking the law, which is not unreasonable as the line between legal Part 15 and illegal pirating, can get a little fuzzy. Also, on the topic of Alex Jones, you may think he is bad radio, and he might be, but he is one of the most popular talk show hosts in America right now, despite the controversial nature of his show and limited affiliates.

@SarasotaJim... you are still the only person I've ever encountered who insists that deregulation has been good for broadcasting. I don't care what you call it, but what's happened since 1996 has been a disaster of epic proportions. If there is going to be any deregulation, it should be taking the chains off of hobby broadcasters or "pirates". The only reason radio listenership is down is because of the automation, budget cuts, and stagnation at the corporate stations. You generally won't find a pirate station airing a playlist like you'd find on 107.3 the Eagle.

P.S.
Have any of you ever wondered why it is that corporate stations stunt and image themselves as pirate stations? Maybe it's because they realize that people will be more interested in listening if they THINK they're listening to a pirate... hmm.
 
Cedric said:
@SarasotaJim... you are still the only person I've ever encountered who insists that deregulation has been good for broadcasting. I don't care what you call it, but what's happened since 1996 has been a disaster of epic proportions.

You completely missed the point, Cedric. In spite of my libertarian leanings, I have never claimed that complete deregulation is a good thing. The deregulation that everyone blames for the current state of broadcasting was a response to too much regulation in the first place. The clustering of stations under common ownership was the only way the commission had to keep all those extra stations on the air that it squeezed in earlier with a bunch of ill-conceived social engineering.

The commission decided it would rather keep those signals on this air. The only way to do that was to allow groups of stations to operate with common personnel. Yes, what we see now is the result of that deregulation but that would not have been necessary if the Carter FCC had ruled with common sense instead of ideology.
 
SarasotaJim said:
I'm not sure the FCC should be involved in low-power operations. I'm not convinced that the constitution gives the federal government authority over any communication that is limited solely within the borders of a given state.

This particular issue was settled by a federal court in the 1930s, in a case involving a pirate station in Texas. The court ruled the FCC had jurisdiction to shut it down because 1) radio waves travel an infinite distance, and thus cross state lines (this is a technicality to be sure, but true nonetheless), and 2) Even if a station's not listenable across a state line, they may interfere with the reception of other stations broadcasting into the state, thus interfering with interstate commerce.
 
Yeah, and in the 40s the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Department of Agriculture who stomped on a farmer who was growing food for his own use. The thinking was that while the farmer wasn't involved in interstate commerce, if enough farmers did would he did it could impact interstate commerce. Federal courts don't always get it right. In fact, sometimes the rulings are just stupid. (Remember WGCB?)
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.
Back
Top Bottom